English CMU scroungers?

[Clair]

Interesting (?) article in today's Dépêche du Midi, about the "abuse" made of the CMU by English expats living in France...

http://www.ladepeche.com/aff_art.asp?ref=200510180779&rub=011

"LE FAIT DU JOUR. DES RESSORTISSANTS BRITANNIQUES AISÉS BÉNÉFICIENT DE LA CMU, DU RMI. PHÉNOMÈNE CONFIRMÉ PAR LE MINISTÈRE DE LA SANTÉ ET QUI PREND MÊME DE L'AMPLEUR.

Ces Anglais soignés aux frais de la princesse

Exprimez-vous : Êtes vous choqués par cette situation ? Selon vous, faut-il prendre des mesures ?

Shocking ! Nombre de médecins, de spécialistes ou de responsables de laboratoires d'analyses n'en reviennent toujours pas. Ils voient arriver dans leurs cabinets un certain nombre de ressortissants britanniques qui au moment de payer la consultation, et contre toute attente, se trouvent bénéficiaires de la Couverture médicale universelle (CMU). En clair, ils ont des soins entièrement gratuits comme nombre de plus démunis, déshérités… Pourtant, selon les témoignages des généralistes, ces personnes, en apparence, ne présentent aucun signe de précarité. Mais faut-il se fier aux apparences ?

La plupart sont des sujets de sa gracieuse majesté qui se sont installés récemment en terre d'Aude pour faire l'acquisition souvent de vastes demeures, au bas prix de 150 000 à 200 000 €, et qui sont pour la plupart transformées, après travaux, en chambres d'hôtes ou en gîtes. Des néo-Audois, au regard des investissements immobiliers et des travaux qu'ils réalisent, qui ne manquent pas de moyens. « J'ai déjà soulevé le problème auprès de la Cpam », confie un médecin de la haute vallée. Les praticiens que nous avons contactés, quand ils n'ont pas de cas similaires parmi leurs patients, ne se disent pas outre mesure surpris. Et certains de décrire des consultations faites à domicile, dans des domaines, où la CMU faisait office de règlement. Si les exemples ne manquent certes pas, il convient d'éviter tout amalgame, plus encore d'anglophobie et remettre en cause les bénéficiaires de la CMU voire de son existence. Mais certains patients Britanniques provoquent des éruptions cutanées chez des médecins. Du côté de la CPAM, on tousse, on relativise le problème mais on ne dément pas. « La législation concernant la CMU est très complexe », explique Jean-Jacques Ruiz, responsable de la cellule solidarité à la Cpam. « Certains Britanniques couverts socialement dans leur pays bénéficient en France d'une couverture sociale, c'est la Cpam qui gère ces dossiers au niveau national », poursuit-il.

RÉGLEMENTATIONS DIFFÉRENTES

Mais Jean-Jacques Ruiz reconnaît que la tâche n'est pas facile et qu'il est souvent ardu de connaître le revenu, les ressources de ces Britanniques en raison des différences de réglementation entre les deux pays. Le responsable de la cellule solidarité de la Cpam ne dément pas certains abus, sans toutefois les quantifier. « On sait mal maîtriser les revenus des ressortissants de l'Union européenne, une réforme, au niveau national, devrait voir le jour à ce sujet en 2006 », précise-t-il. On évoque même un circuit d'informations interne au sein de la communauté britannique audoise pour bénéficier de la CMU. Car la CMU est attribuée sur le calcul des revenus et non sur le patrimoine immobilier. Un tour de passe-passe suffit, comme l'oubli de déclarations de revenus perçus en Grande-Bretagne, pour transformer un heureux propriétaire audois en un candidat pour la gratuité des soins. Un maire de la haute vallée parle même de « ratissage social ». Contacté également, le conseil général, qui ne dément pas l'attribution du RMI à certains ressortissants Britanniques qui, comme pour la Cpam, ne fait qu'appliquer des textes dont bénéficient aussi certains ressortissants de l'UE. Au département, selon nos informations, on aurait aussi pointé quelques « dérapages » et des mesures adaptées pour enrayer des demandes de dossiers abusifs auraient été prises. Cette affaire n'est pas unique. L'Aude n'est pas le vilain petit canard dans ce dossier. Le Lot, la Dordogne, les Pyrénées-Orientales, où on compte une forte population anglaise et membres de l'UE, connaîtraient le même phénomène. Ici, la princesse s'appelle Marianne !

Jean-Luc Letitre

Au ministère de la Santé, « le problème s'étend »

« Il y a effectivement un problème des aides médicales pour les gens de l'UE en France », confie un membre du ministère de la Santé en soulignant que « nous sommes conscients que le problème s'étend et prend même de l'ampleur ». L'Aude n'est donc pas le seul département touché par ce phénomène que le représentant du ministère de la Santé ne peut quantifier. « Pour les membres de l'UE, ils doivent résider en France de manière régulière, depuis plus de trois mois et ne plus avoir de droits dans leurs pays d'origine, ni de revenus » poursuit-il en indiquant qu'« il est très difficile de contrôler les revenus en Grande-Bretagne ». Au regard de la couverture sociale britannique, en comparaison avec celle de l'hexagone, on comprend rapidement le choix de ressortissants Anglais, installés en France, d'opter pour le second régime. Notre interlocuteur au ministère précise également face à l'accroissement de ces excès ; « Nous sommes entrain de réfléchir sur les moyens de mieux appréhender cette question ». Si le mot réforme n'est pas prononcé, il va sans dire que des consignes plus strictes vont, sans aucun doute, être données aux différentes Cpam à travers toute la France."

Roughly, the article highlights the apparent abuse of the CMU cover, originally put in place to help destitute people unable to get health cover any other way, which now appears to have been highjacked by EU citizens, more specifically named as British/English (all the same), who, having bought "vast houses" and spent money to renovate them as B&B's or gîtes, (so they're not poor), have no visible income in France and can get away with claiming CMU. The article also hints at the existence of a british "CMU info network" helping to feed the abuse of the system.

The paper invites comments form readers, so I expect a bit of a English-bashing in that paper over the next few days...

We used to hear about "benefit scroungers" in the red-tops, back when I used to live on the south coast of England... Nothing better to rally the crowds than a bit of foreign-bashing!!

Clair

[Val_2]

Its got worse too since the french government did away with the application for a Carte de Séjour for which you used to have to proove you had sufficient health cover to live here. This makes me so cross when I hear about scroungers coming here and I've met a few up here too,when our yearly CPAM cotisations have gone up over 150% just because we dared to make a teeny weeny bit of profit with the business last year. I've met a woman who fits this bill, except she has no money,lives in a hovel with no amenities and bought her pregnant teenager over who duly gave birth here which resulted in a lot of specialist maternity care for the baby after and who paid their bills - why the commune in which this woman lives of course and she has since been vilified anyway for something else she did that upset the locals. Some of my neighbours were moaning about the brits coming over and using french hospital facilities to get their treatment quicker, I didn't say one word only let them get it out of their systems.

[GRT17]

Clair, thanks for posting this interesting article.

Val 2: When my eldest was born in a London teaching hospital (quite a long time ago now) there was an Australian back packer who pitched up and gave birth. She had been told beforehand that she would have to have pay her way etc.  but did she? oh no, and of course they couldn't turn her away. I am not sure she ever showed up for any post natal care and thus avoided any payment, so it was all funded by the N.H.S. Sounds a bit like your story doesn't it.

Plus ca change.......

Gill

U.K. and 17

[Ron Avery]

If you read this through it is not really about the English getting treatment in France for free on the CMU, it is the allegation that they pay nothing into it due to their "low income" but live in grand and expensively refurbished houses  and yet under the rules live in poverty.  That may well be the case, if you have no income, but only spend capital (yes I know that it is very unlikely that there is no interest generation) then you are under the threshold for paying into the CMU.  But how do the chemists and Doctors know whether or not their patients and customers pay into the CMU?.

[Teamedup]

How do they know if people pay into the CMU?

 

Indeed, 'I' and all the french people I know, know what the CMU was when they brought it in, but a few years ago.

In our heads one doesn't pay into the CMU, it is assistance for those in dire straights.

The sublime sottise of the Caisse de Maladie was to use the term CMU so generally.

 Those in dire straights, who took the CMU, and not all did take it by any means, they would have to find a doctor that would take them,  then they would be covered by the CMU at 100%. Part of it was that they have no top up to find.

Paying into the CMU, that sounds bizarre to me, but once you start paying who would know? Although I personally would never tell anyone I had the CMU and was paying for it......... even if I was paying........I reckon they would automatically think....... scrounger.

 

When the CMU was brought in we brits had to have carte de sejours and had to prove that we could keep ourselves...... and I seem to remember that a mere 6900 euros a year would not have been considered enough......... in fact how the hell does anyone live on that, never mind a 'foyer'.

 

Will there be a backlash, wouldn't surprise me.

There are too many french people who will never ever be able to afford to buy somewhere to live. However, they do manage to have to pay their own health costs, local and national taxes. Can't say I would want to be coughing up for some brit who hadn't got enough to pay their own health care, although they had had enough to buy a place........ I reckon I would be feeling rather miffed.

 

 

[LesLauriers]

I presume they are referring to pre retirement people.

For couple living on interest only, a sum of £100,000 would produce £4800 (more or less) and converted to €'s, is about 7000€ the trigger point for paying into the CMU.

£100,000 would not last too long though, so if the claim is that people are living off of capital and not paying for health cover it is either for a short number of years or they are not declaring their true income. They may of course have the cash under the mattress!

[Ty Korrigan]

hello... I am the french brother of the Ty

les anglais with gites and money in angleterre who hide all the money.  they are scum because they are using france like a holiday or to retire but give nothing when they take livre for the moneys and put into england.

I know these peoples and shame to them for the***** they make.

They is the scum my english family say. My brother-in -law and me say we are payers of the socialcharges that the black workers don't.#

I lose work to the english black workers and take the imatriculation for the prefecture to make the laws good encore.

my brother try to make the good contract with manyenglish but prefer the french too make work and pay plus.

I speak better the phone and face. I write poor. sorry.

Ty help me but not too much write this.

[Ty Korrigan]

I shouldn't let Seb post on his own...'Ty'

he is an anglophile french man and part of my family but hates the abuse of the brits of the system Francais. He also says with my corrections.... Here he is again...

The middle class dreamers who come here and rob france of money are lepers from the last bastion of hell and I piss on their psuedodreams with my stinking yellow truth water

How do they dare to be like the immigrants in the U.k who take the money for nothing.

I am a worker like  Ty and pay the charges+ lots

If I come to england and do the same you don't cry no?

I don't answer more I am angry to much.

 

I helped him with his written english 'Ty'

[LesLauriers]

Ty - did you enjoy that bottle of wine?

[le bouffon]

No mention of the french having access to the NHS in the UK for free,

[Tourangelle]

it is not the same though, is it? The issue is not whether it is "free" or not, and anyway how free is it, let's not forget that French people do not generally retire to the UK, they go and work. French people have the same right to health care as British people in the UK, and British people have the same rights here as the French. The problem is the abuse of the right, whether it be by French people or British people.

[Will]

"The problem is the abuse of the right, whether it be by French people or British people."

But that's the whole point, there are extremely frequent abuses of the system. The scroungers, the early retired with 'hidden' means, the house rebuilders living off capital, the black market workers - all come to France and expect to get the same out of the health service as the French and the legal foreigners without paying into it in the same way that we do.

It's something that we've noticed in this part of France, and I believe the French have noticed it too.

I remember it was mentioned on another forum, one usually noted for its sometimes over-friendly and rose tinted attitudes, and the person who brought it up was shouted down comprehensively (and I believe even got the original post censored by the forum admins). There was an undercurrent there of 'We're all in Europe, I've paid my NHS stamp for 35 years so I don't see why I have to pay again when I'm not working', as well as denying the problem existed. Perhaps it touched a nerve with some people?

I agree with Val, the discountinuation of the titre de sejour for EU citizens has encouraged this sort of practice. People can come and live here and no longer have to provide proof of being able to support themselves.

[Ron Avery]

The scroungers,.................the house re-builders living off capital"

Will, why are these people scroungers? It is perfectly legal and honest to live off capital, it does not count as income, only the interest earned on that capital does. So as long as the total interest is declared to the tax people and CPAM , it is not their fault if the "income" does not reach the tax or health charge threshold and they pay no charges

 What about all the people in their 50's and 60's here who have a wife on a UK pension at 60 and have got an E 121 and pay no health care charges, are they scroungers too?  Or part of the reciprocal arrangements France has with the UK?

[Viv]

As with any loophole (and that which Ron mentions is clearly one) , there will always be people there to take advantage / exploit it.

However, I think it is no point the French just moaning about it. Can't the powers that be just plug this particular loophole ?

[BJSLIV]

 are they scroungers too?

No because their health costs are being paid for by the UK Govt, to which they have probably made some contributions. The Brits who come to France are taking advantage of a loophole in the French rules which allows them to benefit from something to which they have made no contributions. Moreover they are benefiting from a system which is recognised to be short of cash, and for which the French are being penalised by the additional social charges, irrespective of their level of income.

If they were living in the UK they would not be entitled to social security benefit, if they had a stash of investments, until their resources were sufficiently depleted. It surprises me that the French have not modified their rules to bring in some wealth test for eligibility for free healthcare. Presumably if there is enough populist clamour they will do exactly that, followed by some court cases with tough punishment.

The current situation is an anomaly which untill the abolition of the Carte De Sejour could not arise, I'm sure all those civil Servants are quite capable of coming up with a way of blocking the current loophole.

[Will]

People with E forms have their French health costs covered by the UK government, as rightly pointed out, so they come in a completely different category.

As for people living off capital I am sure we have all seen them pleading poverty with the authorities while the new 4x4 is outside with the engine running - it may not be illegal but in my view it is immoral that they get CMU when they are far better off financially than many people, French or British, who are working and paying vast percentages of their money into the system. Such people may not be in the same league as the out and out scroungers, but they upset the locals almost as much, hence the article.

Why so sensitive Ron Avery - this isn't you, is it?

[Battypuss]

Mmm. good one this. Verdict, please.

I originally moved to France with my husband and two daughters. He was retired (on admittedly dubious medical grounds) and I was classified as an invalid. We bought a house, paid all the bits and bobs that we were supposed to; then he left France...with the car and the contents of the bank account and has been neither seen nor heard of since. No great loss; I got to keep the children, now up to three. Oh, and he flogged the house.

As a single, soon to be divorced under French law, person, I had Child Benefit. I was entitled to CMU as I had no other income. Then, the French Government, with no prodding from me, invited COTOREP to examine my case. After due care and consideration, they decided that I WAS an invalid and would therefore receive a French Invalidity Pension and could not work due to my various disabilities. Note, please, I did not seek this classification.  I was entirely happy to work and was able to do so, apart from being forbidden on medical grounds! Anyway, with the IB and the CB, I was about 15 euros over the maximum allowable income for the CMU, so had to proffer my Carte Vitale and cough up. I also had to seek alternative medical insurance, at a cost of some 70 euro a month for the entire family. So, basically, I was not really a drain on the Health Service in France or the UK and have certainly paid enough National Insurance to support a vast influx of medical freeriders in either country.

Now I am back in London, to my great sadness. It has taken me just over three months to succeed in obtaining £31 and a few coppers to support myself and two out of three children. Oh, and I get a few bob to feed them too!

I am not complaining. But I do feel that in comparison with various foreign neighbours, here in London, who have fancy cars and state of the art mobile telephones, that perhaps both systems are a bit askew.

Another board to which I contribute has a post concerning the possibility of of moving to France with 4 children (spouse not mentioned) and transferring Invalidity Benefit, Child Benefit, Carers Allowance and various Disability bits and pieces to France. It appears - and I may be wrong here - that the lady in question neither speaks French, nor has any intention of working and reckons that she can "work the system". I wish her good luck. I replied that perhaps she should remain where she was, secure in the arms of the more-or-less English speaking British Government. I have, with grave misgivings, helped people to set themselves up in France and can wholeheartedly agree that there are many, many British people who reckon France owes them a living. I direct my point to those who have no interest in French Culture, life or language; those who endeavour to set up a small corner of Britain in a French village and continuously comment upon the fact that if the French were as civilised as they wish to be portrayed, they should speak fluent English.

After nearly 15 happy years in France (and yes, I speak French as do all three children) I abhor people who have watched one too many 'Life in the Sun' or similar programmes and figure that France as part of the EEC should support them. I have similar comments to make on the hundreds of black market builders, who cannot, but I think I had better shut up!

So, am I, or have I been, abusing the sytem or not? Answers on a postcard, please. Or an email.

 

[Will]

Battypuss, I think you are a good example of the sort of person who should be entitled to some form of assistance in either country. Certainly your need for CMU was far greater than somebody with the sale proceeds from an English house sitting in a non-French account somewhere, but they get it and you didn't.

As you so rightly say, such people think France owes tham a living when they are not prepared to put anything into France, not even try and appreciate the French mindset.

Unfortunately the French style of means testing seems to be based solely on income, the sooner this can change then the better.

[IAN_S]

I must admit that I'm a little confused here. Are you all talking about getting healthcare after an E106 has run out, or some other form of social security payment?

We are pre retirees who have had an E106 based on previous payments in the UK that has now expired. Our income is from a UK house rental and bank interest that is sufficient to pay our way in France now and will get better when our state pensions kick in.

All our income is declared in the UK and France and results in our not paying tax in France or any payment to CPAM (is this CMU?).

All we do is follow the rules and be totally legal with our declarations in the UK and France, and to change the situation would require the payment thresholds to be increased to the detriment of really poor people.

If this is the perceived problem what can we do about it? Does it mean we are scroungers?

At the end of the day we certainly will be contributing in the form of inheritance/CGT taxes whilst supporting the local economy just by living here.

 

[Tourangelle]

[quote]"The problem is the abuse of the right, whether it be by French people or British people." But that's the whole point, there are extremely frequent abuses of the system. The scroungers, the early r...[/quote]

which was the point which I made, who cares what happens in the UK?

No, Ian, it is not you. CMU is couverture maladie universelle, and it for those, who, for whatever reason do not pay into the system. It could be for somebody who is unemployed who is not entitled to benefit, perhaps because they never worked long enough (because they would pay into the system via their benefit if they had some) for example. CPAM is just one of the government organisations that people pay into and that reimburses people when they have medical expenses. It is the one that most people have to use.

[Teamedup]

I have just deleted what I have just posted.

 

Yes it is IanS. Why isn't it, they are getting health care and not paying in, and it isn't for free, it just means that everyone else is paying...........

 

ie all the french people who never stand a chance of buying a property now or ever and scrat and scrape and pay every lousy thing. Including Monsieurs health care.

 

Surely the old carte de sejour threshold was above the current 'get out of paying anything at all clause' for the CMU that is really rather low.

 

I do get annoyed about this. I really do.

[Ron Avery]

[quote]People with E forms have their French health costs covered by the UK government, as rightly pointed out, so they come in a completely different category. As for people living off capital I am sure w...[/quote]

Nope, not me Will I have just got my bill for social charges, paid my impots and join the paid health system on expiry of E 106 next year.  I was not justifying at all the people who you say "scrounge", but if they cannot pay into the system under the current Rules because their financial situation like Ian S does not require them to, that does not make them scroungers. Perhaps for the benefit of the many people out here who have money put away for their house refurb or a rainy day, in most cases the product of many years of paying into a pension scheme or the rewards of hard work, can you can make voluntary donations for their health care even though the French Government does not require them to do so.

Why are the under and over 60's with E 121's who may have extensive wealth but now pay nothing for health care not  branded as scroungers?  Because the UK Government pays for their Health care in France and because they paid NI for many years?  Well perhaps some of the so called scroungers also paid top rate NI for many years also.  As the scroungers, as you call them Will, have not yet got an E121, when they do so do they cease to become scroungers??

[Viv]

[quote]Nope, not me Will I have just got my bill for social charges, paid my impots and join the paid health system on expiry of E 106 next year . I was not justifying at all the people who you say "scroung...[/quote]

I think was exactly the point that is being made! ( re the bit about saving for a rainy day) That many French families who qualify for this, do not have money put away for a rainy day.

As was said earlier, in the UK you often have to go down to your last few thousand to get state help and yet here the opposite is true.

As an aside, I think that the fact that one no longer has to register at the local police station or prove that you have the means to support yourself, will also increase the numbers of Brits coming here to chance their arm working on the black.

[Tourangelle]

[quote]I have just deleted what I have just posted. Yes it is IanS. Why isn't it, they are getting health care and not paying in, and it isn't for free, it just means that everyone else is paying...........[/quote]

It is not Ian because he is not on the CMU is he? He is benefitting from a reciprocal agreement, and nothing says he will be on CMU when his E whatever runs out and he has a higher income with his pension. The thread is on English CMU scroungers, that's not him.

[Catalpa]

Can anyone full of self-righteous indignation at Ian-S’s (and others) temerity to live in this country on a totally legal basis in a style which is apparently not acceptable to your moral values, take a step back and consider:

 

- that it is the system at fault - if it is at fault and I am sure plenty of French people would say that it is not, even if they have not made themselves known personally to members of LivingFrance;

 

- I imagine French people do find it difficult to save. Gosh. Maybe that’s why savings aren’t factored into the equation. Startling insight: maybe French financial law wasn’t made to take account of British house-prices and / or downsizing and the resulting available capital;

 

- individuals who fall into this fortunate but entirely correct situation are just that: fortunate. I suspect they are not “exploiting a loophole” – that’s (jaundiced?) perception, not legal fact; and please

 

- start that populist clamour: write to authorities, political representatives or whoever and state the case to get the law changed but give us a break from bleating about individuals’ personal circumstances under the guise of what (since the “legal” argument doesn’t stand up) is or is not moral behaviour – it looks like simple envy to me.

 

And before someone coyly, nudge-nudgingly enquires: touched a nerve? No, I don't fall - and probably will never fall - into this fortunate category. But I wouldn't be wearing a hair shirt if I did.