Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[Quillan]

Jerome - If you want to know more about B&B's then have a look in th B&B or Gite section and use the search facility, it's all there for you to read.

[Jerome]

Thank you but I can't find anything about this.

I don't want to be rude and say answer me, as that would not be right but this being a Forum and as you are a Moderator who has a B&B,  you will certainly know the answer. Please could you tell me, it is something you would know.

[Dave&Steph]

Hi

Can anyone please help us ?

We have lived in France since Oct 2002 and have french rental income which is declared under 'microfoncier' on the tax form. 

CPAM 26 (Drome) use our french tax form to assess our payments to CMU and we have Cartes Vitales.

We don't have UK health cover E106 or E121 as aged 45 and 53.

Are the french going to classify us as 'inactive' and take away our Carte Vitales and eject us from the health system?

Any advice anyone has on this would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Steph and Dave

 

[Danny]

Jerome,

it seems to me, having done lots of reading (and I did find many threads relating to registration at the C de C - search for "commerce" in the gites and in the chabres d'hotes sections) that this question of obligation to register is not clear enough. The official texts that are there are still not adhered to in many parts of France. This leads to conflicting advice from many professionals and fonctionnaires. It is a grey area but because it is not well regulated people do all sorts of things and no one seems to care. There are some people with all sorts of activities going on who earn a lot of money and are not registered as a business and therefore do not pay any social charges at all. They take lots of earnings in cash and foreign cheques and only declare miniscule amounts for tax purposes.

Basically, a lot of people do not register as a business because they don't want to, regardless of any official obligations. The problem is that there is no enforcement of statutes in place and they can get away with it.

I think that until there is very clear policy in this matter and that any obligations are stictly enforced, people will continue not to register their gite/b&b activities as a business. The current issue about healthcare coverage shows just how complicated the whole business is and how difficult it can be to do joined up government. Things are going to have to change... and it might get messy( messier?)

Danny

[Danny]

[quote user="Dave et Steph"]

Are the french going to classify us as 'inactive' and take away our Carte Vitales and eject us from the health system?

Any advice anyone has on this would be most appreciated.

[/quote]

possibly... but it is too early to really know what is going to happen at the moment.

as Quillan said yesterday:

"I don't see any harm in getting quotes but actually signing up with somebody at present is not such a good idea in my book.

Like many I have sent my forms in as usual and am checking the post each day for my letter to say I am still affiliated to CPAM and till when (usually in my personal case it's October to October). There has been a lot written in threads on this forum and others, there has also been a lot of stuff on other sites and in newspapers. Whilst not burying my head in the sand and hoping it will all go away I think it best to wait and see what really happens.

The only two people I know for sure who have been rejected where the two people who got letters and posted in our forum. It now seems reasonable to assume given the details from the French government websites that their rejection was not necessarily anything to do with the new law as it is clear that they should have at least had cover till April 2008 and that the new law, according to what I have read in posts here and elsewhere, does not seem to take effect till the end of this month. One, if memory serves me was changing to an E121 which could have been an administrative ***-up and the other was trying to enter the system for the first time and may not have met the standard requirements or there was something wrong with their paperwork.

By all means continue to gather information and share it but I still think it's best to carry on as normal and to wait and see."

 

Danny

[makfai]

Dave&Steph

 

Bearing in mind the date your residence started you will reach the 5 year benchmark before the end of March next year (i.e. October this year) in which case - based on the information we have at this time - these rules should not apply to you.  I would suggest you contact your local CPAM.  If you do a search on this site you will find various discussions on the 5 year rule and Cooperlola has posted on this several times.  A PM to 'Coops' would no doubt save you some time in searching.[Www] Good luck! 

[cooperlola]

Oh, ta![:D]

(Seriously, do feel free to PM me if you wish.)

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Oh, ta![:D]

(Seriously, do feel free to PM me if you wish.)

[/quote]

Don't want you slacking[:D]

[cooperlola]

Dave & Steph:

It looks to me as though you would qualify for a "titre de sejour".  According to our Embassy, anybody with one of these (available to those who can prove 5 years' stable residency) will be entitled to continue within the CMU.  Sadly, as a forum, we have no concrete evidence of this, in spite of several (possibly hundreds?) of letters and e-mails asking for clarification.

As we would all like to know this, maybe you could test this out, for yourselves and the good of all people affected as you are.  Go to your Mairie/Prefecture with all your documentation (5 years' tax returns and avis, electricity, phone bills, anything you can think of to prove stable residency) and begin the process.  Real hard evidence of this is what you and many others need.

[makfai]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

Dave & Steph:

It looks to me as though you would qualify for a "titre de sejour".  According to our Embassy, anybody with one of these (available to those who can prove 5 years' stable residency) will be entitled to continue within the CMU.  Sadly, as a forum, we have no concrete evidence of this, in spite of several (possibly hundreds?) of letters and e-mails asking for clarification.

As we would all like to know this, maybe you could test this out, for yourselves and the good of all people affected as you are.  Go to your Mairie/Prefecture with all your documentation (5 years' tax returns and avis, electricity, phone bills, anything you can think of to prove stable residency) and begin the process.  Real hard evidence of this is what you and many others need.

[/quote]

 

Good advice.  By the way I sent you a PM last night - did it arrive?

[Jerome]

[quote user="Jane and Danny"]

Jerome,

it seems to me, having done lots of reading (and I did find many threads relating to registration at the C de C - search for "commerce" in the gites and in the chabres d'hotes sections) that this question of obligation to register is not clear enough. The official texts that are there are still not adhered to in many parts of France. This leads to conflicting advice from many professionals and fonctionnaires. It is a grey area but because it is not well regulated people do all sorts of things and no one seems to care. There are some people with all sorts of activities going on who earn a lot of money and are not registered as a business and therefore do not pay any social charges at all. They take lots of earnings in cash and foreign cheques and only declare miniscule amounts for tax purposes.

Basically, a lot of people do not register as a business because they don't want to, regardless of any official obligations. The problem is that there is no enforcement of statutes in place and they can get away with it.

I think that until there is very clear policy in this matter and that any obligations are stictly enforced, people will continue not to register their gite/b&b activities as a business. The current issue about healthcare coverage shows just how complicated the whole business is and how difficult it can be to do joined up government. Things are going to have to change... and it might get messy( messier?)

Danny

[/quote]

Thank you again Danny, yes I too have read as much as I can on this subject but after reading about it all on this thread, I just thought that as Quillan is a Moderator, then by his position I simply thought he would know exactly what the rules were. I am on another Forum  where the Moderators are all quite expert at the subject matter of the Forum and I thought that would be the case on this one ?

Sorry if I am wrong about this but as he/she is actually running what seems to be a succesful B&B probably (possibly) turning over enough to make it his superior income, then they would know the precise answer, wouldn't they ? Sorry if that assumption is wrong but either way, ought there to be an answer?

I have found Eslier now and see he is a Moderator as well and it was he that posted that it was indeed obligatory.

[Joshua]

Hi, It seems that a lot of us have fell into this trap, but hopefully that in itself will help. 6000 E106's have been issued this year so far for France

One of the important things I learnt while working in Oldham was that the Asian immigrants individually were weak but collectively were a force to be reckoned with

They pool their resources and itelligence to achieve common goals

Surely we can come up with ideas to resolve this problem, obviously within the framework of the law.

Private insurance for me is not affordable.

I've been quoted 1650 euro each per annum plus paying for all medication and treatment for pre-existing illnesses and a 50 euro excess for each illness

COME ON. lets have your ideas. Should we form an association ( The NOCPAMS )

Joshua

[sunshine 2]

I am on for joining Joshua's association - there is power in numbers and we are all affected in one way or another.  Even those that will scrape into CPAM because of the 5 year rule (hopefully!!) will see their property value plummet as so few Brits will come to France over the next few years until things settle down.  But it would be a HUGE amount of work to collate material, numbers etc, - is anyone prepared to 'lead' us on this?? (Sorry not me, as my husband is just starting cancer treatment and will probably not have completed his 'treatment plan' when we are thrown out of CPAM in 31/3/08, and my energies must be directed at supporting him over the next few months).  I think the way forward is to fnd a UK minister (perhaps the minister for health or one of his minions) who is prepared to take on negotiations with the French Health ministry and have numbers, real-life scenarios etc, at his finger tips (which we can give him) during the negotiations.  I have no confidence that the British Embassy will do this for us as they do not even reply to my emails.  Mary Honeyball has been helpful so far in putting questions to the European Parliament but that is going to take several months to get a reply. What do others think is the way forward??

[cooperlola]

Joshua, please see our Lobbying thread

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/6/1029167/ShowPost.aspx#1029167

The MEP, Mary Honeyball, is leading the charge so please e-mail her

[email protected]

initially and add your voice.  I am in agreement with you, we need to get together on this and make a noise. 

Btw, where did you get that quote?  It's bloomin' cheap, you must be quite young......

[Chassaing]

Hi,

MPs fear C4 documentary on the cost of immigrants will fuel race hatred

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=484761&in_page_id=1770

All this Immigration stuff is the issue of the moment, I think the health care issue is part of it.

Regards.

[cooperlola]

And did you see this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2558303.ece

 

[Chassaing]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

And did you see this?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2558303.ece

 [/quote]

I guess that should cause a stir, you know.....  what are we doing helping the ..........

Best we find out how to 'sign on' in France?

[ams]

A friend of ours has just bought an apartment by the sea. The people selling the apartment gave them the name and details of the cleaning lady who cleans the apartment part time. They have done everthing legal and pay all contributions to the French state.

 

I wonder would it be possible for each of us to become an employee and an employer by cleaning each others respective houses on a part time basis, sufficient to meet the requirements to have access to the CMU.

 

ams

[Tony F Dordogne]

And if the works not done and this is seen as a 'fiddle', isn't that why the government is bringing in many of the other changes related to working, to help stop this sort of thing?

[Tony F Dordogne]

A local guy, Brit who has lived in France for years and years, properly registered and has worked here legit for ages has been making enquiries with the CPAM at Perigueux and various other bodies about all the changes.  There's so much been posted on here now about what is or isn't happening, I'm so confused, can't remember it all.

I'd like to post the whole of what he's passed round an Association here in 24 for information but it's 29 pages long and too hefty to be posted in a single message really.

Not sure how much is known already, just offering to pass it on to anybody, Cooperlola or whoever if you email me privately.

 

[ams]

I feel that you see the worst in people and simply do not understand the difference between evasion, clearly your thought process and avoidance, my and other peoples thought processes.

 

ams

[cooperlola]

AMS, I think everybody is panicked and of course, thinking of ways in which they might attempt to retain CMU cover.  Personally, I think the most dramatic way to do this, if anybody would be happy to work given the chance, would be for every immigrant below retirement age to sign on.  I'm sure the French government would take a bit more notice if we all popped up on their unemployment figures.  I honestly cannot see the majority of us actually finding any work - but if anybody's happy/willing or able to do some, then if we do it the legitimate French way, it would make a bigger splash anyway and work just as well as employing one another in the way you suggest.

Tony : You've got mail.

[makfai]

[quote user="Joshua"]
COME ON. lets have your ideas. Should we form an association ( The NOCPAMS )
Joshua



[/quote]

This was done in Spain http://www.ukgovabusesexpats.co.uk/aboutus.htm 

[Cat]

Has anyone seen this site, L’Observatoire du droit à la santé des étrangers  http://www.odse.eu.org/article.php3?id_article=4 ?

L’Observatoire du droit à la santé des étrangers est un collectif d’associations qui entendent dénoncer les difficultés rencontrées par les étrangers dans les domaines de l’accès aux soins et du droit au séjour pour raison médicale.

There is some interesting reading there, although it seems to focus on non EU citizens living in France.

[Tony F Dordogne]

AMS, it's not evasion or avoidance, it's just another knee jerk suggestion which, when our hosts - and regardless of whether we've been here five years or not, we're still guests here - realise what's happening, it will be another stick with which to beat British immigrants or ex-pats.