Jerome

I am sorry but your take on it is not how it is seen in more and more tax offices and Chambres de Commerce. I have taken this up in the last few days and to my mind now, I seem to think that you will struggle to find a tax office who, if you offer them the full story about your circumstances,  will not tell you that it is obligatory to register your B&B as your chiffres will be too high to rest as non professionelle, non prof are intended of course (or were, so I am told) to help the agricultural trade to earn a money on the side from the number of spare rooms or outbuildings. It has become an art form now for many Nationalities, not least the French themselves and that is why the 50% and 23,000 euro linits were brought in to being.

Sorry but I am staggered as to why Quillan hasn't answered this what I would think, a simple question himself. I have not been a member that long, so perhaps I am not yet in to the mode of this place but I am utterly amazed than a person who puts their site at the bottom of their posts for, I guess clients to see ? is a moderator and for some reason known to them, will not help a person who would like to know the answer to this ?  I suspect other members would also find it very useful to know the sitaution from a  person who, from their site, would appear to be very expert at B&B in France but  I suppose it is their perogative and no one should be expected to answer a question they don't want to, it just seems a shame not to share such obvious experience though. I shall just have to continue looking elsewhere.

I agree but was slightly concerned that she/he has not answered my question? Or am I wrong in that assumption that he/she would have done if there had been other circumstances? If there is nothing in place, perhaps you or anyone else, could tell me why it is on the site that Clair kindly posted? I don't know of any rules in France that are made in France but not a legal regulation? Maybe your last sentence is why people don't register.....? Once a business is registered, social charges are levied from day one. I do know now, from someone on a Forum that emailed me, that they were told by their local tax office, that they had to be registered and with a look that said, they would be wise to do it instantly. That quote Clair gave me, was one that a couple of others have also sent to me, including the person mentioned, who was told in no uncertain terms to register as the B&B was their business and their main income. I am not worried if it is Quillan's main income or not but my point was also,  that Moderators on Forums normally are the lynchpins of giving honest answers that help their members. Sorry if that is a liberty but that is how Forums I am on, seem to act and as he/she was a Mod and had what appears to be a very succesful B&B, then they would automatically know the rules and advise others seeking such advice.

Thank you Clair, So it is obvious that Eslier was indeed right and that some people operating B&B's  including the Moderator, Quillan, should not legally be with the CMU then ? Thanks again. Quand devient-on loueur professionnel ? Il faut être inscrit au registre du commerce et des sociétés (RCS) et avoir des recettes : soit supérieures à 23 000 €, soit inférieures à 23 000 € si les revenus tirés des meublés sont supérieurs ou égaux à 50% du revenu global.

Hi, I have asked this qustion in the health thread and Danny kindly offered two replies but was not sure of the legal answer. Quillan said I should look on the B&B thread as I may find it here but I haven't been able to find the answer to this question. I have seen a post by Eslier (a Moderator) that quotes 23,000 euros or the income from the B&B being over 50% of your  income will mean one has to register the business. I spotted a few who are operating B&B's in France on here and saw that one person was a moderator on here and thought he/she should know so asked them but they offered me this part of the Forum. I had hoped that someone could offer the legality of what one should do please. I have tried to search but did not know where to start but in a French mag yesterday I saw an article about someone in the Lot describing her little B&B who said that if she offered evening melas or lunches or snacks even, she was obliged to register, so she did not offer meals.I thought that one of the Mods with a business such as this, would be knowledgable on the subject but if they cannot help and as I said before, the Forum I work with on a differnet matter altogether, are the the ones who invariably know the answers. Sorry if that is not the case here. Here is what I asked on the health thread and Danny's kind reply. Any further help would be appreciated. [quote]Jerome, it seems to me, having done lots of reading (and I did find many threads relating to registration at the C de C - search for "commerce" in the gites and in the chabres d'hotes sections) that this question of obligation to register is not clear enough. The official texts that are there are still not adhered to in many parts of France. This leads to conflicting advice from many professionals and fonctionnaires. It is a grey area but because it is not well regulated people do all sorts of things and no one seems to care. There are some people with all sorts of activities going on who earn a lot of money and are not registered as a business and therefore do not pay any social charges at all. They take lots of earnings in cash and foreign cheques and only declare miniscule amounts for tax purposes. Basically, a lot of people do not register as a business because they don't want to, regardless of any official obligations. The problem is that there is no enforcement of statutes in place and they can get away with it. I think that until there is very clear policy in this matter and that any obligations are stictly enforced, people will continue not to register their gite/b&b activities as a business. The current issue about healthcare coverage shows just how complicated the whole business is and how difficult it can be to do joined up government. Things are going to have to change... and it might get messy( messier?) Danny [/quote] My post Thank you again Danny, yes I too have read as much as I can on this subject but after reading about it all on this thread, I just thought that as Quillan is a Moderator, then by his position I simply thought he would know exactly what the rules were. I am on another Forum  where the Moderators are all quite expert at the subject matter of the Forum and I thought that would be the case on this one ? Sorry if I am wrong about this but as he/she is actually running what seems to be a succesful B&B probably (possibly) turning over enough to make it his superior income, then they would know the precise answer, wouldn't they ? Sorry if that assumption is wrong but either way, ought there to be an answer? I have found Eslier now and see he is a Moderator as well and it was he that posted that it was indeed obligatory.   

[quote user="Jane and Danny"]Jerome, it seems to me, having done lots of reading (and I did find many threads relating to registration at the C de C - search for "commerce" in the gites and in the chabres d'hotes sections) that this question of obligation to register is not clear enough. The official texts that are there are still not adhered to in many parts of France. This leads to conflicting advice from many professionals and fonctionnaires. It is a grey area but because it is not well regulated people do all sorts of things and no one seems to care. There are some people with all sorts of activities going on who earn a lot of money and are not registered as a business and therefore do not pay any social charges at all. They take lots of earnings in cash and foreign cheques and only declare miniscule amounts for tax purposes. Basically, a lot of people do not register as a business because they don't want to, regardless of any official obligations. The problem is that there is no enforcement of statutes in place and they can get away with it. I think that until there is very clear policy in this matter and that any obligations are stictly enforced, people will continue not to register their gite/b&b activities as a business. The current issue about healthcare coverage shows just how complicated the whole business is and how difficult it can be to do joined up government. Things are going to have to change... and it might get messy( messier?) Danny [/quote] Thank you again Danny, yes I too have read as much as I can on this subject but after reading about it all on this thread, I just thought that as Quillan is a Moderator, then by his position I simply thought he would know exactly what the rules were. I am on another Forum  where the Moderators are all quite expert at the subject matter of the Forum and I thought that would be the case on this one ? Sorry if I am wrong about this but as he/she is actually running what seems to be a succesful B&B probably (possibly) turning over enough to make it his superior income, then they would know the precise answer, wouldn't they ? Sorry if that assumption is wrong but either way, ought there to be an answer? I have found Eslier now and see he is a Moderator as well and it was he that posted that it was indeed obligatory.

Thank you but I can't find anything about this. I don't want to be rude and say answer me, as that would not be right but this being a Forum and as you are a Moderator who has a B&B,  you will certainly know the answer. Please could you tell me, it is something you would know.

[quote user="Jane and Danny"][quote user="Jerome"][quote user="cooperlola"] Here is the relevant legislation with regard to registration: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnTexteDeJorf?numjo=ECER0759563D This is not my field but others will give you better info.  However, I believe if you have a properly registered business here, and pay full cotisations, then you are entitled to French state healthcare, just as any national running  a business would be. [/quote] Thanks but that is only for the registering of a Bed and breakfast, not about the regulations about at what point your income reaches and when  you are obliged to register and not get your cover from the CMU. Anyone know please ? [/quote] here is some info for you on this page from the APCE site. see especially this part : "- Les personnes qui exercent cette activité de manière habituelle en recherchant des profits et qui en font leur profession doivent s'inscrire au registre du commerce et des sociétés." Loosely translated (by me) " those who carry out this activity full time and make a living from it must register it as a business" No mention of amounts of income there, just basically whether or not it is one's main income. Can't find any documentation regarding how this relates to actual income figures but I will keep looking. I know Eslier has posted many times on this subject so maybe he/she could indicate where we might find the some official texts... Danny [/quote] Thank you Danny but the link in the person Quillan's footnote, shows he does B&B but he says he is waiting to hear from CPAM (is that for CMU?) ? So if it is, is he and others who in fact have B&B house's, as their business, they must register if they earn a certain amount or if it is the majority of their global income? Yes, I think it was Eslier who posted about this. Maybe he or Quiillan can tell us more ?

[quote user="cooperlola"]Here is the relevant legislation with regard to registration: http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnTexteDeJorf?numjo=ECER0759563D This is not my field but others will give you better info.  However, I believe if you have a properly registered business here, and pay full cotisations, then you are entitled to French state healthcare, just as any national running  a business would be. [/quote] Thanks but that is only for the registering of a Bed and breakfast, not about the regulations about at what point your income reaches and when  you are obliged to register and not get your cover from the CMU. Anyone know please ?

What are the rules about owning a Bed and Breakfast, as far as paying for health ? I did read on here somewhere that someone stated that if you earn over 50% of your gobal income from a gite and I take it that would also bring in bed and breakfast ? or earned over something like 23,000 euros (?) then you were obliged to register at the Chambre of Commerce, is that correct?

Carte de Séjour were always the words printed on the cartes and it is only in recent years that the words Titre de Séjour replaced Carte de Séjour but yes, they are in effect, one and the same . So not at all sure, that it was simply a name given, purely as it was a card shaped, Titre de Séjour.

Someone just beat me to that question. I have been wondering what it all meant. Would it be better if more, or less, posted about your banning of Miki, or indeed are the figures relative ? Are you thinking that above a certain percentage, you would have him back, below not ? The problem as another person said, is that your Maths are a little out, well quite a lot in fact and therefore cannot be trusted. So at the end of the day, what actually was your reason for offering that post? Especially, as now we have found out that the huge figures you quote, take in folks from all over the shop and have no real meaning at all on the actual amount of members on this Forum and therefore the percentages are whacko as well.            

Well I have now read Esliers message to Miki and cannot believe that anyone acting as a Moderator on any Forum, could write such an awful and condescending letter. It contradicts what the other Moderators have said and all along we have one Moderator saying one thing and then another saying another thing, then when that difference has been pointed out, they very quickly dismiss it and go on to mention something else and no doubt that will also be contradicted. I can well understand why Dick Smith and all the others are finding it tough to take and Miki, well after reading that message, what would anyone do ? Apart from the others, I don't feel that Eslier is ever going to be a decent Moderator, he/she does not have what it takes, talking down to any member shows a distinct lack of the kind of fair judgement needed to moderate a Forum properly. Perhaps a quiet word for their first message may have worked wonders ? Just a thought.    

Is it fair that a member should now be vilified when he is unable to defend anything that is being said about him? A few members now are taking the opportunity  to say something now, seems rather vindictive to me, surely they had ample chance to do so whilst Miki was on the Forum, so why now ? Old scores to settle perhaps ? Not a good reason is it ? Quillan mentions that PM's are private, them proceeds to show  a part of a PM from Miki, is it out of context, is it ,or is it not ? How will we know ? We are told certain  things he has done but none are being substantiated, as we are fed stories that it is all private, sorry but that has been a well known phrase by many governemnts and authorities and it has always covered up an ulterior motive. We are told that people will never come forward ! How does Quillan know that ? Have they told him and inded if so, can we believe the answer ? Too many questions I am afraid and no answers that can be properly trusted, well without showing proof. So my thoughts are, that unless all these accusations against Miki can be substantially proven, then it is all rather more a witch hunt to help back up what looks to me,  to be a vendetta against his daring to continue to question the Mods. Let's see the PM that banned him, surely if Quillan says it is OK to do so, then whoever has it, put it on so we can all see it and make our own minds up.