Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[makfai]

[quote user="la bezarderie"]

Reading through a translation of the EU directive,  it would seem that people who don't manage to find cover, could be asked to leave France.

I would welcome clarification on the last point from someone who knows more than I do.

[/quote]

Afraid I don't know any more than the next one but I have already made the following point to my MEPs.  Don't think anyone (including Mary Honeyball) has taken it up.

Sanctions

Article 36 (see below) of the Directive says that sanctions for breaches of the rules should be notified to the Commission by 30 April 2006.  There has been no publicity given to what these sanctions are or to the procedures by which they will be administered and appealed.  This further reinforces the allegation that the French Government has failed to afford those affected reasonable publicity about changes. 

 Article 36

Sanctions

Member States shall lay down provisions on the sanctions applicable to breaches of national rules adopted for the implementation of this Directive and shall take the measures required for their application. The sanctions laid down shall be effective and proportionate. Member States shall notify the Commission of these provisions not later than 30 April 2006 and as promptly as possible in the case of any subsequent changes.

 

[cooperlola]

Well, I make the income from the 7,000 E106's alone as over 25 million euros.  But goodness knows what these people actually cost the healthcare system here to treat - so much depends upon their state of health, and that's the critical figure.  However, if you look back into the mists of time, when incomers were first obliged to enter the CMU and told they could not take out private insurance as an alternative, then there were certainly a number (probaby, ironically, those who are now being seen as the typical Brit here - wealthy and comfortably off) who objected most strongly to this, as 8% of their incomes was more expensive than full private health insurance. So certainly some of the contributions made by incomers are going to hit the system when they stop.

Sorry, the point Framboise, is that you know in advance that you will need private health cover.  If you were diabetic, or had a chronic problem which costs a lot to treat, you would know that you couldn't afford to live here, and could still back out.  For those already here, they based their calculations upon one set of criteria, and now they've changed.  It's not just a matter of money for the long-term ill, it's a matter of life and death.  To live, they must sell up and move back home - probably to rented accommodation as they won't be able to re-enter the housing market and won't get any sort of meaningful employment now.  You're one of the lucky ones.  I hope for your sake that you don't develop a chronic illness before you get here, because you won't be able to live here at all then.

[Glyn]

Framboise,

Like you, when we decided to move to France we 'fully accepted that we must join the system' and were prepared to pay what was necessary for this. However we like many others are now being told that we cannot join.

I only hope you have budgeted for any unforseen changes that may arise after you have emigrated next year. Having the prospect of you health contributions increase by 400% is not fun.

 

 

[la bezarderie]

I am becoming more and more interested in finding out what degree of consultation has taken place between member countries of the EU, prior to France adopting these new laws and rules.

It's for certain that if the UK was planning something this radical there would have to be a lot of research/consultation done with affected parties and their governments.  I'm never sure if this is done because that is the UK's stance on change or because they have to do it due to EU directives (or think they have to do it because of EU directives. Nonetheless, it would be part of the process.

I don't think that any  EU member country wants to be rapped over the knuckles by the Commission or worse still, told to go back to the drawing board.

If the research/consultation took place, I would have thought that word would have leaked out well before the announcement so my question is.  Was anyone aware of the potential for change prior to the announcement of a fait accompli?

[Logan]

This link may help with news of the latest moves by the Government.

http://www.french-property.com:80/newsletter/2007/10/1/health/

Looks like I've duplicated other posts. Tried to delete it.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Logan"]

This link may help with news of the latest moves by the Government.

http://www.french-property.com:80/newsletter/2007/10/1/health/

[/quote]

Oo..er.....it doesn't exist.

[BJSLIV]

Oh yes it does!

[Benjamin]

[quote user="BJSLIV"]Oh yes it does![/quote]

This is what I'm getting

  

Document not found

We are sorry but the document you are looking for cannot be found.

We have recently undergone a large transformation of the website, so if you believe this document is missing in error, please click here to send us an email.

Otherwise, please follow the links above and below to find the documents that you require.

[cooperlola]

And me!  Although when I tried it yesterday it didn't although wandering around the links it referred me to, there was something about site updates, so it may be an intermittent problem.

[BJSLIV]

Document not found

Assuming that you are using Microsoft Internet Explorer, I think you need to change the settings.

if you go to Tools, Internet options, Browsing History-General, Settings, and increase the frequency with which the system looks for the latest version of the page , I think you will get a better result. Its not a good idea to use every-time if you are on dial-up as it can slow things down.

[Cat]

The latest report in the Telegraph seems to confirm that those who have lived in France for 5 years will qualify as french residents.  Their source is Stephanie Gaillard, head of communication for social security.  But, on the question of those suffering from pre-existing chronic conditions,  she goes on to say that "It will take perhaps two weeks to decide what to do here. This will be a decision for the minister and his advisers."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2007/10/02/frenchhealth.xml

[cooperlola]

I'm sure it's a tough one.  Even if a person proved that they had been rejected from private health cover on the grounds of a chronic condition, would they be expected to be covered privately for other things?  And if so, would they have to pay their 8% in addition to the CMU; if not, who's paying, the French people?  I can't see that that is fair either way.

[sunshine 2]

[quote user="Framboise" ]

"If you cannot afford private insurance, go back where you came from and get free treatment in the country you were born in" 

Shame that doesn't apply to the UK then.   Sarkozy appears to have more of a spine than Gordy & Co have, enough guts to tell it how it is then implement it, irrespective of whether some people don't like it.   At least he stands up for His People.

As emigrees next year we fully accept that we must join the system when we leave England, its never been an issue nor have we questioned its validity.   Thats simply how it is.''

Framboise - I think you have missed to point here.  What do you mean by 'we fully accept we must join the system when we leave England". What system is that exactly???? If you are one of the lucky ones of UK retirement age who can get an E121 then fine - no problems. If an early retiree then perhaps you have already budgeted for having private insurance for 3 years when your (hopefully 2 year) E106 runs out and before you can join CMU after 5 years of residency.  If the latter, then have you realised that if you or your partner is, say, diagnosed with cancer 18 months into your E106 then you are likely to be in the midst of a 12 month or so treatment programme when your E106 expires.  At that point, as things currently stand, there is no insurance company who will take on a person in the midst of a cancer treatment programme - you will be left paying for it yourself, or returning ot live permanently in UK at a time when your ill-health can't cope with the upheaval.  A friend of mine has just had a 5 week course of radiation treatment, following op and chemo, and the 5 week course of radiation alone cost 15,000 euros - at the same time she was receiving once weekly injections which cost 1,000 euros a time.  Fortunately she is under an E121 and fully covered - she only knows the cost because she receives copies of all the bills. Lots of people are wise and have contingency funds but very few could fund any lengthy cancer treatment out of their own resources.

For those coming to France on E106's it really means that they are taking an enormous risk if they don't also take out comprehensive private health insurance cover from day 1 and keep it in place for the 5 years.  Not many people are going to do that as eternal optimism about not becoming ill during duration of E106 is likely to prevail once costs of private insurance are weighed.  However, there will clearly be some tragic scenarios in the future as, sadly, people do get cancer, have heart attacks etc and will be precluded from having those covered by private insurance when their E106 ends. 

Still, at least you know what the future holds and can make a reasoned decision about whether to come to France or not and if you go ahead, then how much of a contingency fund to hold back for health issues.  Like many others, we did everything, entirely 'by the book' when we moved permanently here 3 years ago, paid tax here from day 1, had a 1 year E106 (not eligible for 2 year one) and then paid 8% of worldwide income into CMU for 2 years - and now face being thrown out in March 2008 before my husbands cancer treatment is finished.  There is no way we could have anticipated or planned for this eventuality - I would never have guessed that either of us would get cancer and then the very next week learn that France planned to throw us out of their health system.

[Glyn]

I think that there are two situations regarding the '5 year' rule.

1. Those people that have already been resident for 5 years being allowed to continue in the CMU.

2. Those people who will become resident for 5 years at some point in the future being allowed to join the CMU.

Both of these really need to be clarified. It looks like this will only become clear when the first person in each of these groups applies to stay in/join the CMU.

[cooperlola]

Glyn, from the looks of things, proper rules re this will be clarified and disseminated to the CPAMs.  But history tells us that it won't be easy, given the way some deal with this at the moment, and it's been this way for a while.[Www]  However, you are right, we need to keep feeding back what happens to us as individuals and how we all cope!

[Tony F Dordogne]

Surely everybody will qualify for the 5 year rule 'sometime in the future'?

[cooperlola]

Assuming that the Telegraph article is correct, then yes, one would think so.  But there are still regulations to govern applications for titres de sejour permanents.  Applicants for these need to make sure their documentation backs up their stable residency claim.  If they haven't been filling in tax forms, for example, I imagine a few questions will be asked.  Those without CdeS's will need other proof (and that's a lot of us - as they haven't been generally issued since we have been here, for example.)

[JSA Aude]

Sorry but trying to catch up here.  Does 'resident' mean one has paid taxes for five years or has been resident  (occupying a property for 12 months of the year) for five years?  Am sure many are in the same boat having paid UK tax for the first year then moved over onto the French tax system.  Thanks. 

[cooperlola]

"Droit au séjour permanent

Règle 

Sauf si sa présence constitue une menace pour l'ordre public, le citoyen européen ou assimilé qui a résidé de façon légale et ininterrompue en France pendant les cinq années précédentes acquiert un droit au séjour permanent sur l'ensemble du territoire français. 

A l'issue de cette période, il n'a plus besoin de justifier les conditions de son séjour (ressources par exemple). 

Continuité du séjour 

La continuité du séjour sur les cinq ans peut être prouvée par tout moyen. 

Ne sont pas prises en compte les absences temporaires ne dépassant pas six mois par an, les absences pour l'accomplissement des obligations militaires ou une absence de douze mois consécutifs maximum pour une raison importante telle qu'une maladie grave, des études ou un détachement professionnel à l'étranger par exemple. 

La continuité du séjour est interrompue par l'exécution de toute mesure d'éloignement. 

Perte du droit au séjour permanent 

Une fois acquis, le droit au séjour permanent ne se perd que par une absence de France de plus de deux années consécutives. 

Carte de séjour permanent 

Les citoyens qui ont acquis un droit au séjour permanent en France peuvent demander la délivrance d'une carte de séjour "CE - séjour permanent - toutes activités professionnelles", valable vingt ans. 

Cette carte, dont la possession n'est pas obligatoire, est renouvelable de plein droit."

JSA, the above are the conditions for the right to permanent residence.  The "facon legale" is the bit where you might come unstuck, as you are legally obliged to make tax declarations from the date you took up residence.  Ergo, I think that some prefectures might question whether your legal residence began on the date you moved.  I think they might have a case for suggesting that you could not become a permanent resident until 5 years after you started paying your taxes here.  But that's just my own slant on this.  My point is really that we shouldn't expect it to be straightforward, and I can see these kinds of things being used to deny these rights of residence.  And I think you might have a problem defending your position to any authority which questioned you about this.

[Glyn]

It would appear that when I moved to France I would have been better off keeping a notional UK address and maintaining a charade of having a 'holiday' home in France as I know many Brits living here do.

I could have used my UK sourced EHIC to obtain emergency treatment in France and used the UK health system for any non emergency treatment.

OK so I may have got found out sometime in the future but that may have been a risk worth taking. What is the worst the authorities could do.[;-)]

As usual it is those that try and do things by the rules that get affected.[:@]

[cooperlola]

Glyn, I agree, this is the thing which makes me so bl**dy angry in all this (not aimed at the previous poster, as I personally look at one year as OK as these things go and at least it got sorted and taxes are being paid correctly now).  I have friends up the road from me who do this.  They potter along swimmingly and in spite of the fact that he has a chronic health issue, it doesn't bother them as they just pop home for treatment, and he gets all his drugs etc in the UK.  Naturally, they are rolling in it. (They can afford two homes for a kick-off!)

Conversely, a couple of friends of mine (he and my o/h have known each other for 40 years) moved here last year.  He had to give up work because he developed two chronic illnesses which meant he could not carry on in his job as it involved shifts. Without shift work, he could not afford to pay his interest only mortgage.  So he moved here, rented a house (no capital from his UK house sale) and - with us to guide him and his o/h throught the system - has filled in his tax return, registered at the cpam, got an EHIC from France, introduced himself to the maire, got a proper legal rental contract for his home and re-registered his car.  Now he and his wife are going to be stuffed.  They have nothing.  They quite naturally now ask me "Why did you advise us to follow the rules?  We'd have been far better off if we hadn't done what we should, because then we could have gone home to get drugs and treatment."  Not a surprising reaction in the circs.[:@]

[Ron Avery]

JSA wrote "Am sure many are in the same boat having paid UK tax for the first year then moved over onto the French tax system"

Why many JSA?  There is no reason at all why anybody outside of the services, local government  etc had to continue to pay UK income tax.  You were liable to pay French tax from the date that you moved here albeit paying it a year later, so if you moved here say in May 2004, you completed a French tax return in May 2005 for the period May 2004 to December 2004.  With that form in order to get back UK tax paid after you moved to France, you completed an FD 5 (double taxation form), that form dates your residency in France.

There is other reference date for "residency", your E 106 application form date.

[cooperlola]

Ron I'm sure that the E106 date is a reference, but my point is that - given what you say, and I pretty much agree with you - I think the French authorities would have a case to say that any year in which you did not fill in a French tax return (and you should, wherever you actually pay your tax) you were in fact breaking the law.  So they could claim that you do not comply with the permanent residency rules as stated.

"qui a résidé de façon légale"

[JSA Aude]

When we arrived and went to see the relevant tax officer here, he advised us to pay the taxes for the first year in the UK and then move over to the French system.  Sorry, what have we done wrong?

[Ron Avery]

Sorry, what have we done wrong?

Asked the wrong person it would seem unfortunately, unless you misunderstood the tax man or he misunderstood you, but on the facts you have posted you have been given very bad and inaccurate information.  It is unfortunately a symptom of the French tax office functionary that they will give you the answer that causes them least work, if the UK tax thing was for a month or so I could understand the advice, but what they told you was plain wrong and could now cost you dearly as on this basis you can only prove residency which is determined by tax returns, one year later than you could have done. However, all is not lost, did you complete a FD 5 to get UK tax paid back?  If you did, what date do the UK tax people at Nottingham have for you leaving the UK?