Re: Latest Health care Entitlement discussion

[memb]

I reckon France has done nothing wrong - yes, communication in large organisations can always be criticised, but in what matters, the proposals as far as we can tell, appear reasonable.  It is trying to get into line with EU law. I am becoming more and more persuaded that the real blame lies with our own government in not falling into line with common sense and spirit, if not the letter of EU law, and do as the Germans and Dutch do to ensure their citizens are protected in another EU country.  As always we are just pawns in a sordid game of politics being played by Westminster. 

Hear Hear Chris!  The more people who write to their M.E.P's the better.

[Danny]

[quote user="Chris"]

The frustrating thing is that if the authorities would only accept  that many of us who run profitable gite enterprises or B&Bs, and work hard at it, would be happy to be considered as 'businesses' and pay whatever dues are required.

[/quote]

Sorry if I am misunderstanding but there is nothing to stop those who have these activities to be registered as a business and (to quote Eslier from another post)

"A lot will depend upon whether this is your only or main (more than 50%) source of earned income. If it is, then you will have to register your business (usually as an entreprise individuelle) at the local Chambre de Commerce.  Even if it isn't your main source of earned income, if the expected income will be more than 27000€ then you will still have to register."

Danny

[Russethouse]

[quote user="47AJM"]

I reckon France has done nothing wrong - yes, communication in large organisations can always be criticised, but in what matters, the proposals as far as we can tell, appear reasonable.  It is trying to get into line with EU law. I am becoming more and more persuaded that the real blame lies with our own government in not falling into line with common sense and spirit, if not the letter of EU law, and do as the Germans and Dutch do to ensure their citizens are protected in another EU country.  As always we are just pawns in a sordid game of politics being played by Westminster. 

Hear Hear Chris!  The more people who write to their M.E.P's the better.

[/quote]

While I truly sympathize with the position some people may find themselves in, is really realistic to expect the UK to pay for the health care of its own citizens in France AND also give the French in the UK free health care ? I thought there was supposed to be a degree of reciprocity ?

I can see the arguement - but it 'feels' wrong

How does the arrangement work (both ways) for others ie Dutch - French, Germany - French ?

 

[cooperlola]

I am attempting to discover what the situation is for other EU non-French nationals.

R/H I suspect that the UK is rather different, certainly as regards the French who live there, in that most are working, and so they pay their income tax there, and one assumes, N/I contributions too.  One does not read, for example, of the idylic retirement possibilities available for the French in the UK!  I have 3 French friends who live in my old village back in the UK.  All went there because it was cheaper and easier to set up there own businesses.  They milk the UK system in just the way in which those on the forum which Clair gave us the link to, believe Brits are doing in France with regard to their health care.  But they are just taking advantage of the laws as they stand there, and why shouldn't they?

[Cat]

I see that the French government is due to announce the social security budget for 2008 tomorrow, which covers healthcare and pensions, perhaps more information will filter through after this.

 

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2007/09/23/afx4146546.html

[Will]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

How does the arrangement work (both ways) for others ie Dutch - French, Germany - French ?

[/quote]

The Dutch and Germans both have what is, in effect, a state-approved private health assurance system, so - if they are in France and not in a position that they are compelled to sign up to the French system, as they would have to if working in France - they can extend their own cover to include France. My information is that, because of the nature of their home systems, the concept of E106 as we know it in Britain does not really apply, though that might not be totally correct. Most European countries appear to have the 'workers E106' but not an E106 for non-actifs, so the limitation of cover to a notional two years is not really relevant to them. Hence the specific reference to 'Britanniques' in the French documents.

[westland]

Surely even the French Government cannot get away with "picking us off" from all of the many other nationalities living in France who must be covered by the CMU.  Residents from some of the poorer EU countries who have settled here (can they do so?).   They can't all have been covered by an E106 or their country's equivalent.   How are they going to withdraw cover without discrimination against us?  They would have to change the CMU rules for everyone wouldn't they?

[Chris]

Will and Jane, I read the earlier discussions elewhere on registering etc and while I might have misunderstood, Yes one can register, and some cases as you describe, must register, but even having a "business" does not bring entitlement to join the CMU. ie it does not bring  self-employed status as afar as the state is concerned.  I was looking at it from a 'joining the CMU' perspective rather than strictly complying with registering business regulations. I think it was Will who advised on that, but I was a forum virgin back then (last week!) and may have got it all wrong!

[Danny]

[quote user="Chris"]Will and Jane, I read the earlier discussions elewhere on registering etc and while I might have misunderstood, Yes one can register, and some cases as you describe, must register, but even having a "business" does not bring entitlement to join the CMU. ie it does not bring  self-employed status as afar as the state is concerned.  I was looking at it from a 'joining the CMU' perspective rather than strictly complying with registering business regulations. I think it was Will who advised on that, but I was a forum virgin back then (last week!) and may have got it all wrong!


[/quote]

Chris, you seem to be getting a bit confused here. If you have a business, then you are self employed and just like employed people, pay charges to cover your health care.You therefore have no need of CMU as you pay for cover already. CMU (Couverture universelle maladie) is designed as health cover for those on very low or no income who do not pay for health care through their work.

Danny

[Chris]

Danny, thanks for your reply,  I didn't think I was confused, but parhaps shortened my discussion too much.  I understand CMU.  From an earlier discussion in another post, I believed that it was established (possibly by Will) that running a  holiday cottage letting business (my definition),  is not considered a business activity.   Clearly your business is.  If that is not so,  anyone letting a cottage, making a few bob a year can register and pay the social charges, and all is well.  I did not understand that to be the case and I shall be delighted to be told I am wrong.

[chessfou]

[quote]CMU (Couverture universelle maladie) is designed as health cover for

those on very low or no income who do not pay for health care through

their work.[/quote]

I keep seeing this statement (from French people as well as us imigrants) but it is an over-simplification.

(1) CMU was designed as a "catch-all" for those not subscribed to Secu. Yes, primarily for the poor but not just for them, also for the well-off not otherwise included (and I believe, though I have not seen it stated, to ensure that full private health insurance could be outlawed).

(2) CMU also provides the "CMU complémentaire" as a top-up for the poor.

The following report (from 2000) gives some solid figures (p.6) for:

(1) (not counting those who also qualify for comp.) 152,887 (ca. 4% miscellaneous non-poor);

(2) 3,643,460 (ca. 96% "poor")

www.issa.int/pdf/helsinki2000/topic4/1lelaidier.PDF

Yes, overwhelmingly for the poor but not solely for them.

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Jane and Danny"]

Chris, you seem to be getting a bit confused here............. CMU (Couverture universelle maladie) is designed as health cover for those on very low or no income who do not pay for health care through their work.

Danny

[/quote]

Not quite, the CMU is as it says universal, but for those not working, there are two sorts,   La CMU de base where you have to pay into it based on your income and the other La CMU complémentaire which is free due to low income.

It has not even yet been made clear if the proposals to limit entry to the CMU apply to both types or just complémentaire.  

[cooperlola]

Well, it seems now that the situation has been completely clarified, and that the decision has been made.  All those in between E106 and E121 age, will be affected, regardless, from 1st April '08.

http://www.connexionfrance.com/expatriate-news-article.php?art=44

Although of course this is a newspaper report and those who wish to clutch at straws may imagine there is still some doubt, but I can't imagine it.

[Clair]

This is the official clarifying statement:

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm

[sunshine 2]

For anyone who wants to contact an MEP Mary Honeyball who appears genuinely prepared to investigate, seek urgent clarification, and take our case forward please see the post I have just put on the Subforum on health chnages under the 'Lobbying' thread.

[Ron Avery]

Its not at all clear is it?  They still have not defined inactifs.  Do they really mean those who have taken early retirement and are not a burden on the state by claiming RMI or CMU complementaire?

What does this mean?

"People living in France must have "resources sufficient in order not to become an unreasonable load for the public purse".  This goes back to the Titre de Sejour again where you had to show resources to get one. If you have a T de S are you excluded from this?

CNAMTS (Ameli.fr) are saying today that this is not cast in stone, they do not have enough information to tell people that they will or will not be excluded or when. All they will say is that E 106 and E121 holders will continue to receive cover and that is all they will confirm. They have no fixed date for implementation and they do not know if it will affect those already contributing to CMU base, in fact they do not understand why those in the CMU base have been included in this, but as they say, they are not the Government.

The Advice is to wait for a letter from CPAM telling you what is going to happen to you, but don't hold your breath as to when this will happen, but in the meantine keep paying your USSRAF.

[cooperlola]

Undoubtedly Ron, that's essential.  Nick Chubb of Asttral (insurance broker) has given me the same advice on several occasions.  Clarify the situation by all means but while this is going on, just keep paying and keep your head down.  In his words "if you get an addtional couple of years' CMU cover even if 'by mistake', then take it and think yourself lucky!"

[Quillan]

[quote user="Clair"]This is the official clarifying statement:

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm
[/quote]

Well I guess thats the answer that we have all been waiting for and it seems very clear a concise. To be honest I can't see writing to an English MEP is going to do much good as history has shown once the French have made their mind up they don't often, if at all, change it. The only thing it does not mention is those that have a private pension income like one or two friends of mine. They take their P60's and CPAM work it out from there and then they pay 8%, they are not 'active' in any other way but are paying something.

I also wonder what will happen to those that have always declaired their earnings (French earnings to the French tax authorities) but have fallen below the limit to pay CPAM.

I also wonder what, if any, effect this will have on house prices and the French economy what with many selling up and going home.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Clair"]This is the official clarifying statement:

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/comprendre/europe/europe/cmu_inactifs.htm
[/quote]

The only thing it does not mention is those that have a private pension income like one or two friends of mine. They take their P60's and CPAM work it out from there and then they pay 8%, they are not 'active' in any other way but are paying something.

[/quote]We are two of those and I assume that we are covered by item 3 in the statement, Q.

[Chris]

The E106 is now reundant.  Those still benefitting from it have 6 months to get insurance.  Those intending coming to France have to have insurance.  So, what is the value of the E106?

[BJSLIV]

It will still give people arriving a period in the French system.

Its for the individual to decide if they would rather get themselves private insurance and thereby avoid the risk of acquiring what would become a pre-existing condition during the validity of the E106 , which would subsequently complicate things once the E106 expired. The choice would very much depend on the gap between the E106 ending  and the start of E121coverage.

[Sunday Driver]

The E106 is not redundant and will continue to be valid as a 'get you started in France' concession by the UK government.  However, once it expires, you will immediately have to seek private insurance cover.

The six months grace period only applies to people who are currently registered for CMU on the means tested basis (regardless of whether or not they formerly held an E106).

[SheilaG]

This has just appeared on the Total France forum and of course I've sent an e-mail in response......seems worthwhile

"Dear All

My name is Mark Nottingham I am Political Manager to Mary Honeyball MEP who is taking up tyhis issue. She is preparing questions to the European parliament and also possibly motions.

I would be grateful for those of you affected to e-mail details of your cases to [email protected]

Many thanks

Mark Nottingham "

[Richard]

[quote user="Quillan"]

To be honest I can't see writing to an English MEP is going to do much good as history has shown once the French have made their mind up they don't often, if at all, change it.

[/quote]

I don't necessarily agree. Of course, they won't change their minds voluntarily, but there are numerous occasions when 'laws' have been changed, modified or repealed due to pressure from those who considered themselves to be adversely affected by them. Whilst I do agree that 'we' may not have the same clout as the French farmers or students, those affected by these changes shouldn't just throw in the towel and 'go home'. Governments (including the UK government) sometimes pass laws and pieces of legislation that are successfully challenged because they are either ill thought out, unfairly implemented or simply unreasonable. Let's wait and see what the considered legal opinion is, now that the final details appear to be known. It may well be worthy of a challenge - and just think of the DELAY if it has to go to the European Court!!

[Ron Avery]

Quillan old chap, how can it be  clear and concise if you raise questions from it?

I don't understand why your mates with private pension income are different or why they need to go to CPAM with a P60, they should pay tax in France on these pensions like the rest of us and send a copy of their tax bill to CPAM each year.  But anyway,  they are no different to anybody else below retirement age and may or may not be classed at the moment as inactives who may be thrown out of the CMU in 6 months time. By raising the issue of people who pay into the CMU Base, you have replicated the exact point that I posted above. So how is it clear or concise is this statement when nobody knows who it actually applies to?