New changes in Health Care cover

[terry51]

After 5 years of searching for a property in Brittany we finally find one and are about to make an offer. Now we find out that the goalposts are being moved re Health Insurance cover for early retirees to France as from yesterday. Thinking we've overlooked a very important aspect of the move, very few people in the business seem to know about it including immobiliers, several well established websites concerned with "French Life" in all its aspects etc.... Even the DWP in Newcastle admit they're as much in the dark as anyone else and the supposed changes have not been authorised within the Department as yet. No doubt they will come about which will mean "bye-bye" to the dream. Can anyone out there really afford £6000 a year plus for private health cover apart from the top up? Any info gratefully received.

[JohnFB]

Uhmm. Maybe I'm stupid. But could you explain the sudden change pls !!!!!

JFB

[YCCMB]

Maybe it was an April Fool's ruse?

[terry51]

Go to French-Property.com website re "early retirees health insurance France". They quote "The UK Government has stated it is proposing to withdraw S1 entitlement for early retirees from 1st April 2014, although no final decision has yet been made." In our case that would have given us enough basic cover until I reach retirement age (just under three years) and would then receive the UK retirement pension and both myself and my wife would be covered under the French Health Scheme from then on.

[terry51]

Wish it was an April fool's scam but Newcastle DWP know about it as well, although they admit themselves they are in the dark and still awaiting official confirmation to implement it. The Overseas Healthcare Team there were very helpful (as much as they could be!!) ( Tel. 0191-218-1999) and could only suggest to keep ringing them until they fully know what's happening.

[NormanH]

In any case if the UK leaves the EU there won't be any S1s

[EuroTrash]

1. you say "£6000 a year plus for private health cover apart from the top up" but if you have full private health cover why on earth would you pay top up as well?

2. it is possible, depending on your circumstances, to join the French CMU health system and pay contributions based on your income. Some people find it's as cheap to pay for private health insurance, rather than pay CMU contributions plus top up.

3. I think you have to bear in mind that France is a different country with a different mindset. It is not a fluffy pink cloud that gives free rides to everybody that lands on it. In the UK everyone expects medical care to come free at the point of delivery. It will stay that way for you if you stay in the UK. That would seem like a dream to many French people because in France people are accustomed to budgeting for their own medical treatment, it's one of their priorities. Their view would be that first of all you make sure that you can house yourself, feed yourself and take care of your own health, and only then do you start considering whether or not you can afford to retire early.

Sorry if that sounds a bit blunt but that's how it seems to me.

[PaulT]

You could have a look at this:

http://www.french-property.com/news/french_health/expat_applications_centralised_nimes/

[Rabbie]

[quote user="NormanH"]In any case if the UK leaves the EU there won't be any S1s
[/quote]Surely that will depend on the result of any negotiations that occur. Also unless current UK legislation is changed UK state retirement pensions will be frozen at their value at the time the UK leaves the EU.

[Pickles]

This seems to be the outcome of the "consultation" that was apparently launched last summer and was reported on various websites from October onwards. The date of 1st April 2014 was simply a proposal at that time. I presume that the legislation to enact this would be buried in the Budget or a similar Bill, but haven't seen anything about it since. On this assumption, I presume that the "target" date of 1st April has not been achieved for the introduction of this policy.

It seems that someone has asked the DoH ...

http://www.connexionfrance.com/S1-early-retiree-healthcare-UK-15639-view-article.html

and been told that they are still issuing S1s for the time being.

[Sprogster]

Pickles, my understanding is that legislation is not

required, as just an executive order is needed, in view of the fact that the UK

is unique in issuing S1's to early retirees, so not part of any EU undertaking.

Therefore, caution is needed as this could easily be implemented anytime

without further notice.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Sprogster"]Pickles, my understanding is that legislation is not

required, as just an executive order is needed, in view of the fact that the UK

is unique in issuing S1's to early retirees, so not part of any EU undertaking.

Therefore, caution is needed as this could easily be implemented anytime

without further notice.[/quote]

Hmmm ... IIRC they reckon that they issued around 2500 last year, which I think is a relatively small number. So are they likely to issue a statement announcing that the policy is in force from a particular date or will they just do as you suggest and get on with it witn no further announcement? Given the small numbers involved, my guess follows your line of thinking, Sprogster.

[terry51]

Thanks for the connexionfrance details,Pickles. The info there matches up to the reply I had from the DoH. They know about the changes but are still issuing S1's until they receive official notice to do so. Their suggestion was to keep phoning them regularly in case things do change. Very much a case of "watch this space" .

[tinabee]

As with most things related to a move to a new country it's a case of "plan for the worst, hope for the best".

When many people were planning moves in 2006/7, they did not expect the French to withdraw access to state healthcare for early retirees, nor did they expect the exchange rate to drop from €1.50 to the £1 (2006) to almost parity in 2008/9.

[Val_2]

Well the President did say that if you can afford to retire early then you can afford to pay for your healthcare and not be a drain on the finances and this was aimed at all early retirees, not just french nationals. Tinabee is correct is saying that you should never take anything for granted here, it changes all to often and very quickly. I should get some quotes from private health insurers if I were the OP to see what is out there, many people have gone down this route until they have furnished enough french tax returns to be regarded as resident with perhaps some rights to the certain schemes. It is certainly too dangerous to live here without any sort of cover and the EHIC is not sufficient.

[Judith]

dangerous???

Now stupid, sensible, practical or some other word, perhaps, but hardly dangerous, either figuratively or literally ....

[mint]

[quote user="Judith"]dangerous???

Now stupid, sensible, practical or some other word, perhaps, but hardly dangerous, either figuratively or literally ....

[/quote]

Hm, don't know about that, Judith.....................I think dangerous both literally and figuratively could well apply[6]

[EuroTrash]

Agree with 'dangerous', UNLESS you have a sufficient buffer in the bank to be able to pay for medical interventions should the need arise.

Dangerous to long-term health if it means going without non-urgent medical treatment that you should have, because you can't afford it.

Dangerous to finances if the hospital has to give you emergency treatment, and you then have to sell your house to pay for the follow-up care.

Would you go abroad on a fortnight's holiday without making sure you were insured in case you needed medical care whilst abroad? Probably not. So if you won't risk it for a holiday, why risk it on a permanent basis?

[Val_2]

Dangerous is not strong enough. My good friend's husband went into hospital in 2010 for a small routine operation to remove a cyst on his colon but the surgeon nicked the membrane surrounding the area and he got septacaemia and was in a coma for several weeks followed by over six months in ITU because he caught a nasty bacterial infection during all time and was tranferred between a local clinic and the main hospital - I know all this having to go with her most days and get garbed up in protective clothing. The bill came to nearly €165,000 which fortunately for his wife who then became a widow because he did not survive six months from the original op, they had been living here for many years and were covered by the reciprocal old age pension health cover but she did not have nor still has no top up mutuelle and luckily she only ended up with around €300 to pay off.She was then told if she had not been covered by the UK she would have had to pay that bill which would have meant selling her home and this has happened to people with no insurance or UK backup and hence why many hospitals here insist on taking your passport details and a signed but open cheque up front in some cases. Two weeks ago, she received again another bill for nearly €2000 dated 2010 and nearly had a heart attack but it was an error in that it had come from the local hospital and should have gone to the local CPAM who are fighting out it between each other to settle all these old bills. None of this is made up, I have seen it all from the entry to the hospital for the husband to him dying and finally this nasty late bill which the mairie eventually rang the CPAM for her. My own husband ran up thousands of euros of medical care but as he was ALD and eventually died, it was not applied but it gave us many sleepless nights wondering what we would have to pay for even though we were covered.

[Chancer]

So actually all that the person was liable for was €300 which is less than the forfait journalier for one of the 6 months.

I agree that having no cover could/would have made the widow liable for the full amount but the lack of a mutuelle has not cost her a centime, you say that EHIC cover is insufficient but the liability would have been exactly the same €300.

I do agree with and have suffered myself from the uncertainty and worry of receiving spurious bills at a time of ill health, so there is definitely some piece of mind benefit from being fully covered with a mutuelle etc.

France does not have a culture of sympathy to people suffering ill health, financial difficulty and bereavement when it comes to demanding money that is probably not even owed.

[Pickles]

[quote user="Chancer"]So actually all that the person was liable for was €300 which is less than the forfait journalier for one of the 6 months.

I agree that having no cover could/would have made the widow liable for the full amount but the lack of a mutuelle has not cost her a centime, you say that EHIC cover is insufficient but the liability would have been exactly the same €300.

I do agree with and have suffered myself from the uncertainty and worry of receiving spurious bills at a time of ill health, so there is definitely some piece of mind benefit from being fully covered with a mutuelle etc.[/quote]

Errr ... I think that the point that was being made was that the person in Val2's case WAS covered as a retiree, whereas a future UK early retiree requiring the same treatment would NOT be covered, due to the future lack of S1s, and would thus be well advised to arrange private cover or else face the bill. EHIC doesn't come into it because it (IIRC) only covers emergency treatment for those on holiday, not those who have taken up residence in France and are "inactive". The (presumably top-up) mutuelle business was a bit of a red herring.

Or have I lost the thread here?

[Val_2]

Also the other fact is that the original operation was not life threatening and the husband was told he could live with the cyst because it was not dangerous and the fact he was 84 and in fairly good health decided him to go ahead whilst he still had a good chance of recovery. It was the bacterial infection like MRSA that he caught that did for him in the end and none of us who go into any hospital whether it be here or elsewhere can guarantee we won't also catch an infection too. No one coming on holiday to France with an EHIC card would be going into hospital here unless it was an emergency or accident and even then it is advisable to have some travel insurance in play.This couple had already lived here for over 15years so were well into the system but anyone now under retirement age should really investigate just exactly what they will face should the worse happen.

[idun]

I was in hospital for 10 days 8 years ago and I checked on how much it cost. No operations, in fact very little was done to me really, apart from the fact that I was there. That cost over 7000€ of which the CPAM picked up about 2000 and our mutualist the rest. IF we had not had the mutualist it would have been hard to pay.

So yes, one needs cover in France unless very well off, which we are not.

The S1's well when we first moved back to the UK the french gave us an old E106 which when retirement hit, converted into an old E121 all now called S1's. It will all depend on circumstances and unfortunately, just because someone has an S1 never means that everyone has the same entitlement to it.

[PaulT]

Val, since the surgeon 'screwed up' should not his insurance have picked up the bill?

[tinabee]

Having been following this thread and some others regarding early retiree access to CMU, I began to wonder at what income level it would be cheaper to pay for private health insurance, rather than pay CMU and top-up.

Assuming a private health insurance policy is in the region of €6000 for a couple.

Assume that the couple have only private pension income (i.e. not UK government pensions), and so would pay an additional 7.1% CSG/CRDS on pension income.

Assume the couple would take out a top-up health policy at a cost of, say, €150 per month.

Assume CMU payment of 8%, after an allowance of €9534.

That would mean, a couple with an income of €33000 or more would pay more in CMU/top-up and CSG/CRDS than the cost of the private health policy.

I have no doubt that there may be a few more variables in these calculations than I have estimated (e.g. tax deductible CSG, cheaper top-up, etc.) but it is an interesting exercise (to me anyway)