Should I be outraged?

[Chancer]

By the, to me at least, innapropriate use in France of English swear words?

It started with a song that was played all the time with the lyric "fuck you very much" which thanks to this forum I learned was by Lily Allen and the UK version was "thank you very much", it made me cross because people started saying it to me without having any idea of what they were really saying.

Tonight on the TV, when I switch to TF1, the number one French TV station I am greeted with a large banner ad  at the top of the screen for Florence Foresti "Mother Fucker", I am with Free.fr and am unsure if this happens with other diffusers like Live box or if it is a TF1 sponsored program.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vP3nOrYtKs

What are your feelings on this, am I over-reacting?

[cooperlola]

Well, I'm not sure that swearing is the worst sin on the planet but I do understand what you mean.   There was something on Cherie FM the other day which was playing in the hospital (it seems to be the local substitute for hospital radio as it's a benign pop music station which is on in the background seemingly everywhere here) and I did think to myself that if the connotations were truly understood here then I doubt it be used for general listening.

[Northender]

It was so much better the other way round!

Here

[Quillan]

There was a French chap and his mate behind us at the Leicester USAP match on Saturday shouting a very rude phrase in English which he repeated many times. In the end I turned and asked him if he knew what it meant, got reply of 'no' with a shoulder shrug.

[NormanH]

[quote user="cooperlola"]Well, I'm not sure that swearing is the worst sin on the planet but I do understand what you mean.   There was something on Cherie FM the other day which was playing in the hospital (it seems to be the local substitute for hospital radio as it's a benign pop music station which is on in the background seemingly everywhere here) and I did think to myself that if the connotations were truly understood here then I doubt it be used for general listening.[/quote]

They know what it means,but they don't feel the force or the shock that some people might feel (especially in the UK)

There doesn't seem to be a just one single word in French which carries the same amount of offensiveness: you have to build up a chain of intensifiers such as 'espèce de fils de p*te à la c*nne' or 'enc*lé de m*rde'

In the South the language is particularly ripe with apparently quite respectable people coming out with 'oh p*t*in" in situations where you might have said 'D*mn' in English, soI feel they are sort of just playing around with what they vaguely know to be naughty.

Although an adult man about the furthest from a prude you could imagine I too feel uncomfortable hearing these sort of things in very public situations, but then who in the UK would be shocked by this

poor though it is[:)]

[idun]

I have seen such bad language on small children's tee shirts and that is way worse IMO.

So, yes, it does annoy me, but most french people I know swear a lot a lot of the time.

[Chrissie]

Any word is only as offensive as the audience finds it - the fact that "English" swear words are used more and more here to a largely uncomprehending audience is unfortunate for those who do understand and find the words shocking, but I think we must accept that no major offence was intended. 

And you can never turn back the tide, so shrug and ignore it.  Although I think that if your children are likely to repeat such phrases to an English-speaking audience, then you should get into explanations of why it is not suitable.

Chrissie (81) 

[Chancer]

Thanks for the comments.

Yes I can and do shrug and ignore it and I dont have children to explain to but I am well aware that around here most English families dont watch any French TV however those with teenage childen have given them the means to recieve French TV  in their bedrooms so can watch all the same feuilletons as their friends at school, - pity the parents dont watch any of them.

Those of you who are parents would you be happy for your child to see

MOTHER F****ER

Appear on the screen each time they switch to TF1 to watch poubelle la vie? Only proportionately much larger than that, it takes up about one 5th of the screen for 15 seconds or so each and every time.

I added the asterisks as the swear filter removes the four letter word but not the six letter derivative

[ericd]

A few years ago whilst on a business trip to Poland's deep south, I met a customer who tried his best English on me as we departed.....Not having spoken a single word of English during the meeting which was entirely in Polish language, he proudly shook my hand and said ..." F*** You "  ! .......I am told he really meant "Thank you".

[Chancer]

I invited a group of French friends to stay at my UK house whilst it was between tenancies, one of them bought some cigarretes at the local shop and said "thuck you!", it was funny to see the response from the Sri Lankan patron.

This message is still blazing across my screen even during the morning programs when the children will be watching, can anyone who watches French Tv through a parabole or TNT tell me if they also get this or is it perhaps just Free.fr?

Am I over-reacting by being outraged, am I in a minority of one? Would anyone even be offended in the UK in this day and age? - I really would like to know as I feel that I want to complain to TF1 or Free.fr.

For those who dont watch French TV, TFI is not some obscure yoof music channel where I would not be surprised to see something like this, it is the number one French TV station, it was a public channel, now privatised I believe, so equivalent to say ITV1.

[pachapapa]

Probably over reacting, the posters and DVD have the word inverted. Week before last in Leclerc, there must have been a pile of 200 at the entrance to the MulitiMedia section. Nobody seemed bothered. I was in a hurry so could not wait for unlikely arrival of demonstration by retired arthiritic ex womens institute presidents from the central deux-sèvres chapter.[:)]

[IMG]http://spectacles.premiere.fr/var/premiere/storage/images/theatre/salle-de-spectacle/spectacle/florence-foresti-mother-fucker/25448483-2-fre-FR/Florence-Foresti-Mother-Fucker_theatre_fiche_spectacle_une.jpg[/IMG]

Frankly I would prefer to watch Fiona Gordon to Florence Foresti; but french women love her because of the way she takes the zizi out of men.

[dave21478]

Lilly Allen is a foul mouthed chav who relies on controversy over her lyrics to sell albums rather than musical talent. A situation that is becoming more and more common.

I wouldnt get outraged about it though, its not worth the effort. Occurances of bad English phrases are popping up more and more I am sure due to automated translators and people just not understanding meaning and context. Earlier in the year, I really really wished I had a camera with me as I wandered through a branch of Tati (cheap clothes and household goods)  and spotted a T-shirt for girls probably 8 - 10 years old with "daddys little f*** toy" written across the front. My bark of laughter drew more looks from other shoppers than the t-shirts.

[zarathustra]

It's France, you have to get used to it. I've done some shopping at lunch time to 'f*** you very much' playing at the checkout, and have seen clips for American films on morning TV with a whole string of expletives. Last month on the Arte channel, during the morning they showed an erotic photograph exhibition with erections, and females bent over showing all. In the south of France, I went into a tourist gift shop and they had t-shirts with 'F*** YOU' written in bold letters. It doesn't mean the same to the French, and whilst I'd rather not have my kids subjected to it, they'll probably going to pick up worse, in French, at the local maternelle.

[Chancer]

Methinks the battle is lost then [:(]

Dont get mad get even!!!!

Any ideas (French) for my custom printed T - shirt? Not "Cass-toi Pov-Con",  someone has already tried that and experienced garde à vue?

I remember when I was 17 watching a comedian live who's name was Roy Jay, he had "I've got some sweeties in my car!" printed across his shirt, it was pretty close to the mark then but appealed to my immature humour at the time, I think it would create a polemique if someone did the same now.

Just read your post Zaruthra, I too have seen the **** you T-shirts, they are very popular around here, mainly worn by 30 + year old fathers out shopping with their young kids, the lettering is enormous à la Frankie goes to Hollywood, I have only ever explained to one guy who looked a bit less local than the others (some outward signs of intelligence) as for the others I hope that they wear them on a trip to London one day [:D]

[ericd]

The worst insult you can tell a Gendarme is "Mort aux Vaches".......and don't ask me why but this insult "dates from Mathusalem".....So get your T-shirts printed with something like "Kill the Cows" and wear them proudly at your village fete day. This is also represented by three dots places in a triangle point upper-most [Www]

[ericd]

A bit more information on the subject:

Encyclopédie des expressions

Mort aux vaches

Insulte envers la police et par extension à toute personne portant un uniforme.

Cette expression daterait de 1870 alors que les allemands écrivaient sur leur poste de garde “WACHE” ce qui veut dire “garde”, “sentinelle”. Les relations franco-allemandes étant tendues, il n’est pas difficile d’imaginer qu’il fut facile aux français d’exprimer leur ressentiments envers les allemands en criant: “mort aux wache” puis “mort aux vaches”. Au fil du temps cette insulte s’adressera plus particulièrement à la police et aux gendarmes; enfin à toute personne portant l’uniforme.

Cette signification se symbolisera dans les prisons en 3 points tatoués en triangles entre le pouce et l’index sur la main des détenus.

De plus, “Mort aux vaches”, contient une telle connotation de révolte qu’elle deviendra le slogan des anarchistes à partir des années 1890.

Le texte de Anatole France “Crainquebille” (1902) souligne bien le caractère insultant de cette expression.

Crainquebille, modeste marchand de quatre-saisons, est poursuivi en justice pour avoir injurié l’agent de police Matra. Son avocat le défend lors du procès par cette tirade:

- Non, certes, je ne méconnais pas les services modestes et précieux que rendent journellement les gardiens de la paix à la vaillante population de Paris. Et je n’aurais pas consenti à vous présenter, Messieurs, la défense de Crainquebille, si j’avais vu en lui l’insulteur d’un ancien soldat. On accuse mon client d’avoir dit : “Mort aux vaches!“. Le sens de cette phrase n’est pas douteux. Si vous feuilletez le dictionnaire de la langue verte, vous y lirez : “Vachard, paresseux, fainéant; qui s’étend paresseusement comme une vache, au lieu de travailler”. - Vache, qui se vend à la police ; mouchard. “Mort aux vaches!” se dit dans un certain monde. Mais toute la question est celle-ci : Comment Crainquebille l’a-t-il dit? Et même, l’a-t-il dit? Permettez-moi, Messieurs, d’en douter. Je ne soupçonne l’agent Matra d’aucune mauvaise pensée. Mais il accomplit, comme nous l’avons dit, une tâche pénible. Il est parfois fatigué, excédé, surmené. Dans ces conditions il peut avoir été la victime d’une sorte d’hallucination de l’ouïe. Et quand il vient vous dire, Messieurs, que le docteur David Matthieu, officier de la Légion d’honneur, médecin en chef de l’hôpital Ambroise-Paré, un prince de la science et un homme du monde, a crié : ” Mort aux vaches!”, nous sommes bien forcés de reconnaître que Matra est en proie à la maladie de l’obsession, et, si le mot n’est pas trop fort, au délire de la persécution. Et alors même que Crainquebille aurait crié: “Mort aux vaches!“, il resterait à savoir si ce mot a, dans sa bouche, le caractère d’un délit. Crainquebille est l’enfant naturel d’une marchande ambulante, perdue d’inconduite et de boisson, il est né alcoolique. Vous le voyez ici abruti par soixante ans de misère. Messieurs, vous direz qu’il est irresponsable.

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="NormanH"][quote user="cooperlola"]Well, I'm not sure that swearing is the worst sin on the planet but I do understand what you mean.   There was something on Cherie FM the other day which was playing in the hospital (it seems to be the local substitute for hospital radio as it's a benign pop music station which is on in the background seemingly everywhere here) and I did think to myself that if the connotations were truly understood here then I doubt it be used for general listening.[/quote]
They know what it means,but they don't feel the force or the shock that some people might feel (especially in the UK)

[/quote]Yes, I agree, hence my use of "connotations" rather than meaning.  It's the nuances and the different audiences for which certain things are acceptable which are harder to convey in a different language and, more critically, culture.  What I'd happily say in front of my o/h and some close friends, I would never utter in front of certain other people.  If some people heard what I say to this computer screen some days they would surely be extremely offended!  Happily before I get to typing, I have usually toned it down a bit or my posts would sometimes be nothing but asterisks.[:D]

[crossy67]

As an avid user of expletives I do find it strange that I am offended, not so much by other people swearing as such, more things like the tee shirts and the likes. 

One case in particular got my goat.  There was a recent hit single over here in the UK and the repeated line was "I wanna be a billionaire so frigging bad".  Now this was played to death on the radio with no sensoring at all, am I going mad in my middle age cos I am sure I remember frigging being a slang term for female masturbation.  If so then I am going to release a song all about wa*king and lets see if this is a hit if we can get a cool enough rapper to admit to being a wa*ker for 4 minutes repeatedly.  It annoyed me that the singer could repeat that line for ages yet "I got 99 problems but the bitch aint one" was bleeped.  A bitch is a female dog is it not, nothing offensive there, just remind me again, what else is frigging then if not offensive.

Turns out bltch is edited here too but not frigging.  Strange.[8-)]

[Iceni]

Those of us old enough to remember Beautiful South will recall the single "Don't marry her, have me" rather than the album version "... fcuk me".

Who is pretending to fool whom? If that is not too elitist to ask.

John

[pachapapa]

The term MF was used by non GI troops in the Korean war to refer to GIs.

The reason is that when they visited Korean Brothels whilst on furlough the GIs always insisted on consorting with ladies having more solid bust lines. It is a characteristic of the ladies of that region that before having children they have relatively unobtrusive bust lines.

The troops used to extract the mickey from their GI comrades in arms by calling them MFs.

[Chancer]

I have always wondered where it came from.

I had thought it was a derivative of "go and ...................... mother"

I tried listening to the French dubbed version of an Eddie Murphy film where in the VO almost every word was m**** ****r, they really made an appalling job of it although anything would have been an improvement on the original.

[zarathustra]

I mentioned the thread to my wife last night, and she replied 'f****g English, if they don't like it they should go home to their own m*****f***** country!" - by "English", she also means Irish, Scots and Welsh... Oh and she's an anglophile incidentally! :-)

[Chancer]

Charming.

That was pobably the main reason that I chose to leave the UK.

You have my sympathies.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Charming.

That was pobably the main reason that I chose to leave the UK.

You have my sympathies.

[/quote]Did I miss something?  I assumed Mrs Z is French?

[Weedon]

I think Mr Z was "pulling zee leg" on behalf of Mrs Z.

I think that "outraged" is probably a little strong but I echo your dismay that these strong words now appear to be an acceptable part of the language and that nobody is concerned that they are regularly used on tee shirts and in the dialogue on television. No jokes can seemingly be funny unless the C and F word feature liberally.

I bet my Mum was a little shocked when Doris sang the words on this record when making a film with Rock Hudson, and wasn't it a little ironic when it turned out that Rock batted for the other side.[:)]

Thinking of another thread on here about TV programmes we don't like to admit we watch, I thought it was so twee that a "contestant" on Jeremy Kyle admitted that she had "slept" twice the previous night with some oaf.

It's an ever changing old world.