Framboise Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 . One was done by dragging the attacker to the ground as he attempted to brain another with a lab-stool, (the teacher in question was NOT big enough to RESTRAIN the 5th form boy), Is THAT OK?No it is NOT ok obviously, and there are enough sad instances lately of such violence caused by 15 year old thugs. Your instance quoted a 15 year old who as we all surely know are 6 foot lumbering giants nowadays - not a child of six. There is a huge difference between a 15 year old and a six year old, not least the fact the elder pupil OUGHT (but obviously did not) know better than to be wielding stools around. What was the six year old doing?? He was apparently collecting stones from a hole in a flower bed with other children, and not spinning a lab-stool around like a set of nunchucks to attack another kid. Unreasonable force was used on a little kid when we are told that he had already been reprimanded once by the teacher and then she started on him again when his mother came to collect him.Ron et al - I quite agree that discipine begins at home, but here in UK a parent's right to punish their children has been removed by Our Betters in the Govt. What are parents supposed to do now then, particularly in the face of being prosecuted if they smack their errant offspring in trying to control them? You cannot have today's touchy-feely society and maintain the ethos of yesteryear - the simply are not compatible. You made your bed so now lie in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Framboise - what do you mean by " in UK a parent's right to punish their children has been removed"? This is clearly not so - part of a parent's job is to punish their children, as a last resort, however upsetting it is to do so and love and praise are better ways to train them. I think parents can still physically chastise their children, in England. Maybe not Scotland? There is a lot of pressure to make smacking by parents illegal but it failed to get through parliament.Corporal punishment in schools was banned in 1998. I might be wrong though.Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Roy Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 [quote user="trumpet"][quote user="Athene"] 'And I've just seen a pig flying past! ' As a primary teacher of many years who still does supply in UK schools I speak with the authority![/quote]GULP[blink] It works for me.I think we need some French input here. Two sides and all that.[/quote]Athene, perhaps you are right about UK schools, but I teach English in French primary schools and it is quite a different ball game and mind set. I also brought up three sons who knew that one of my 'looks' was enough to let them know they had gone too far, but try it with children today and they completely ignore you.[:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Here you go then - this is how I know. We had a particularly ghastly time with our son mkII. He is now 22, is a father himself and a Poacher turned gamekeeper you could say. However from the time he went to secondary school he was a total nightmare having got himself entangled with some boys who were enormous fun to a gulliable 11 year old, they were the In Crowd everyone wanted to be with and also Wrong 'Uns, so of course he started to get into trouble at school and out of school. We were at our wits end to know what to do but the school were about as much help as a chocolate teapot, so we were basically hauled into school at least weekly to get an another earful from the teachers yet without any idea as to what this magical thing was that we are meant to do to make him listen and behave himself.As the weeks went on he was not only giving US cheek and swearing like an old navvy, but he made the grave error of swearing at his older brother. Elder Bro took it for so long and then WHAM - one fine day he took as much as he could stand from a mouthy little brother, warned him he was asking for it then belted him on right on he nose when he carried on digging at him. First we knew of it was when MkII came home from the park sporting a huge pair of shiners, but we told him he had nobody to blame but himself and his foul mouth then left it at that. He never did it again though.Next day he goes off to school and I get a phone call to attend school immediately. I wondered what the hell was going on as two police officers march in behind me along with a hand-wringing social worker and a further two teachers! Anyway, the school decided to call this lot on on the sight of son's two shiners, the refused to listen to what our son told them had happenned and got the Police out to us.The long and short of it is that social workers insisted on attending us at home because (naturally) we were undoubtedly beating up our children. We had this bloke lecturing us on how you cannot smack children, or this or that blah blah blah, but again nothing about what precisely we could do to stop this behaviour. Then eldest son walked in. Social worker asks him what happenned and he told him "Yes. I did belt him. What do you expect me to do when he calls me a ****** and stuff???". No comment.So you see, I do know what is going on. You cannot punish children even though some of 'em could do with a good hiding to remind them of who is actually Boss and learn some respect [:@] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trumpet Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Sounds a bit of a rhum family, that Framboise mob. What with all the fightin an swearin. Drunkeness and all sorts. I ere they even watch ITV.[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trumpet Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 [quote user="Rob Roy"][quote user="trumpet"][quote user="Athene"] 'And I've just seen a pig flying past! ' As a primary teacher of many years who still does supply in UK schools I speak with the authority![/quote]GULP[blink] It works for me.I think we need some French input here. Two sides and all that.[/quote]Athene, perhaps you are right about UK schools, but I teach English in French primary schools and it is quite a different ball game and mind set. I also brought up three sons who knew that one of my 'looks' was enough to let them know they had gone too far, but try it with children today and they completely ignore you.[:@][/quote]Now RobRoy perhaps you could give advice on the initial posting. I would be very interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patf Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Framboise - thanks for the explanation. Similar fights occurred in our house from time to time but we were lucky in that nothing was reported. Also I remember knocking our firstborn off the bed I was trying to make tidy, when he was about three, fooling about, and he got a black eye. People asked him what happened and he said "Mummy did it!" But I still think you can smack, in moderation. Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Ain't got no time for tv Trumpet boy. Too busy banjo-playing [:P]Yes Pat, it is difficult to know what to do with kids sometimes, especially when you have social services lecturing you about how you cannot smack your kids or anything, when in the same breath they are complaining about what diabolical children they are and what rotten parents we must be to even think of punishing any of them, Trouble is, if you let four children do as they please then anarchy soon gets a foothold and then you are doomed. As I said, son MKII is now a Dad himself so he has it all to come, and even he said that he does realise what a monster he was and bitterly regrets the way he treated us. As a post script, the two boys in question that he was getting into mischief with are now both in prison, having graduated from being forcibly taken into care, folowed by long stint in Young Offenders and thence onwards to the Big House. Social Services made a fine job with them didn't they? I'm just glad they didn't get their hooks into my boy. [:(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trumpet Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Ain't got no time for tv Trumpet boy. Too busy banjo-playing Dadl da da da da da d da.So how hails battle for Normandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Methinks William the Conquerer was aiming the arrows at the legions of social workers who tried to put him into care, being as he was shall we say "fatherless". Trouble is poor 'ol Harold decided to take his hoodie off to have a look at that nice Norman longboat he was going to nick to go joyriding in, when some swine shot him right in the eye. He is demanding a million duckets in compensation for his trauma and William has been marched off to receive an ASBO for being a naughty boy.As to the other Battle for the Orne, well hubby will be back later on to comence war on the bosch in our back garden. He takes it all so personally when someone blows one of his houses up. Trumpet if you get this machine you too will become an obsessive on Call of Duty III and forget all about forums, but of course there are all manner of other games you can play online with it. Or you could gt the Wii machine and keep fit whilst you flail our arms around like a demented windmill playing Super Mario Goes Hang-Gliding or something like that haha!! [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Moved question re are Xbox and PS2 etc. to pastimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russethouse Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Panda, could you start another thread please ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Anglia Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote user="Framboise"]. One was done by dragging the attacker to the ground as he attempted to brain another with a lab-stool, (the teacher in question was NOT big enough to RESTRAIN the 5th form boy), Is THAT OK?No it is NOT ok obviously, and there are enough sad instances lately of such violence caused by 15 year old thugs. Your instance quoted a 15 year old who as we all surely know are 6 foot lumbering giants nowadays - not a child of six. There is a huge difference between a 15 year old and a six year old, not least the fact the elder pupil OUGHT (but obviously did not) know better than to be wielding stools around. What was the six year old doing?? He was apparently collecting stones from a hole in a flower bed with other children, and not spinning a lab-stool around like a set of nunchucks to attack another kid. [/quote]But in your post you state, "NO teacher has the right to use force on a child".So..............as I asked, what will you say to the teacher who DIDN'T use force to stop another child putting your child's eye out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trumpet Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Its a difficult call Ford.As I have already said I was a music teacher. I also taught in a School In N. Somercotes Lincolnshire. (That might jog memories.)On one particular day I had the class doing some composing. I had a couple of practice rooms for pupils to use and the classroom itself. As you can imagine its a noisy business.I set the pupils in groups and designated areas for them to practice.In one of the practice rooms I kept my brew kit. Kettle etc.The lesson passed kids dismissed. My friend was the Art teacher. He was on duty at break time with me when he noticed a very oblong burn mark on one of the pupils neck. It was fresh and causing discomfort for the lad. ''How did you get that'' My friend asked. The lad was reluctant to tell. After some persuasion and investigation it came to pass that another lad had used my kettle to heat water and boil a metal chime bar. (They are thin an oblong). Then stuck it on the neck of the other lad.This did not bode well for me as the pupils were in my charge. The burn was third degree. Where was I to allow this to happen? As I said in a previous post, Music is a movement subject and by its nature you have to place pupils in different areas, for practice and noise purposes. I could not be every where. The brew kit was in a locker and not on view.....however this is no excuse.Both pupils were suspended and I was given a written warning. The lads were back after a couple of days. Friends again no problems. My warning lasted a year.Things happen and there are always two sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 We are talking about a child of six - not a lumbering neanderthal of fifteen. You need to be able to differentiate between a Child and a Teenager - even if the brain capacity is the same.I wish the useless teachers had used force on the thug that stabbed my third son in the leg with a compass when he was 15, but no! This thug got suspended for a week and then allowed back because he was in remedial classes and they did not want to give him the opportunity to skive off any further time, thus my poor son had this yob constantly picking on him. In the end it took a quiet word in the thug's ear from two much older brothers before Daniel was left in peace, but the college did nothing whatsoever to help him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote user="Athene"] 'Respect is earned and authority is admired.'DebyThat is what education is all about! It is a two way thing - children must respect their teachers and teachers must respect their children! Respect is earned and does not come with the job! And there are sadly teachers today who bully and scare children! I suspect Ron Avery would be one of these had he the chance![/quote]Since when did we have to accept this ghaatly American use of the word respect? As far as I'm concerned, the word means to show admiration and esteem, so it's appropriate for students to respect teachers but not vice versa (usually). The confusion this use of language is responsible for really makes me wild! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trumpet Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 I think I got the wind up me tail today. In what way was the word respect not used properly.The poster wasn't using it in the sense. Big Up to or High Five to.Respect in fact is not used enough these days.....people are frightened of Respect.The other thing. Americans use this forum. Please show some R-----t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athene Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote user="Patf"]Framboise - what do you mean by " in UK a parent's right to punish their children has been removed"? This is clearly not so - part of a parent's job is to punish their children, as a last resort, however upsetting it is to do so and love and praise are better ways to train them. I think parents can still physically chastise their children, in England. Maybe not Scotland? There is a lot of pressure to make smacking by parents illegal but it failed to get through parliament.Corporal punishment in schools was banned in 1998. I might be wrong though.Pat.[/quote]This seems to answer this one.Following a European Court ruling last year, the government plans to clarify the existing law on smacking, which allows parents to use "reasonable chastisement" against their children. Last September, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that the British law on corporal punishment in the home failed to protect children's rights, after considering the case of a boy who had been beaten by his stepfather with a three-foot garden cane between the ages of five and eight. The stepfather was acquitted by a British court of causing actual bodily harm. He had argued that the beating was "reasonable chastisement". The 14-year-old boy was awarded £10,000 damages against the government and £20,000 legal costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Framboise Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Thankyou for clarifying this debacle Athene. For me its all done & dusted as my lot are are all working now and living their own lives (allegedly!) It is however a minefield.A friend of mine who has younger children says that the favourite retort of her lot when told they are grounded / can't watch tv / play the computer / etc is "I'm going to ring Childline. You can't do that! I've seen it in a booklet at school........"You can't win can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athene Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 And your friend's answer should be, "Go on ring up Esther and invite her over, I will put on the kettle and you can tell her what you have been upto and then we will see if she agrees with you or me as to whether you should spend time time out in your bedroom!" Like you, Framboise, my girls are all grown and flown the coup but I still have amongst my most treasured possessions a little note that my younger daughter wrote to me once. I do not remember now what mischief she had been up to but I do remember I had sent her up to her room whilst the rest of the family was watching television. She had written this little note and pushed it under the sitting room door. The gist of it was to say that why couldn't I just smack her like her friend's mother and then she could come down and not miss her favourite television programme! The answer to that was too difficult for a 5 or 6 year old to understand, in that it would have hurt me a lot more than her to smack her! I do not believe that violence is an answer in itself. And I believe that the strong physically attacking the weak is just bully boy tactics. No I could NEVER condone a teacher pushing about a small pupil!To quote a higher power then any of us on here - 'As you sow, so shall you reap!' - Galation V1In life, you do as you would be done by. So a rule of hate inspires nothing but fear and hatred. Show respect, love and compassion and it comes back million-fold. I feel sad for some of you guys on here who are my sort of age and have not realised this basic truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 [quote user="Athene"] So a rule of hate inspires nothing but fear and hatred. Show respect, love and compassion and it comes back million-fold. I feel sad for some of you guys on here who are my sort of age and have not realised this basic truth! [/quote]Presumably many of us of that age were ourselves smacked etc and are of the opinion that it did us no harm. We may also contrast our behaviour, when younger, with the current crop who have been shown respect (that bloody word again!), love and compassion. Using emotive language, as you do, adds nothing to the debate; I had totally doting parents and was smacked maybe half a dozen times as a child and to describe that as "a rule of hate" is ridiculous and insulting.Edit: And if you want to get Biblical about it, where does that leave "spare the rod and spoil the child"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athene Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 You are talking about older children again! I am talking about young children 4-7 years! I would like to know where you find 'spare the rod..' etc in the Bible? 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth ...' Is the Old Testament but Christ changed that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyC Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I was using the common paraphrase from Proverbs and I wasn't talking about older children, either! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digger Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 I agree do something about it for the others who are going to encounter her in September, I have a 4 year old who starts school this year and I would not accept that treatment on her and Ron you're a ****Post edited by RH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooperlola Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Definition of the verb respect, from the OED"have due regard for the feelings, wishes, rights, traditions of"Something one or two posters on here might bare in mind on occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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