abusive primaire teacher

[suein56]

[quote user="Debnfamily"] Yes, it is a difficult job.  A job she is trained to do and paid to do.  [/quote]

IMHO the problem appears to lie with the teacher 'training' process in France. It seems in no way comparable to the system in the UK where performance, delivery and class control are closely monitored during the training process. Here if a teacher knows their subject, and they themselves can achieve good grades in that, then that seems to suffice. Actually being able to communicate such knowledge to their charges - of whatever age - seems to be of little consideration.

Sue

 

[odile]

Good point Sue. and the same applies to the majority (perhaps all) of European countries- where 'how' to teach and the ability to communicate, and positively 'control' children seems irrelevant- during training, during teaching practice and during the registration year after graduation. The same applies at medical school too, and later during junior years and GP training. We all know that being a brilliant chemist doesn't make you a brilliant chemistry teacher- often it is the contrary as somebody who is brilliant at a subject often cannot understand why a pupil doesn't 'get it' - and the difficulties encountered.

[Rob Roy]

J.R's Gone Native: - I suspect that you are talking about the UK RobRoy?

No, I was referring to France, I haven't lived in the UK for years.

[Deby]

Just read through this thread and it saddens me greatly.  We lived in both cosmopolitan and rural France and my children went to schools in both environments, the two environments are night and day. The city school was excellent - akin to private schooling in the UK, we did send our daughter to a privee and the teachers were very engaging and always had the best interests of our child, school was strict but a happy place. Rural French schooling was a nightmare - straight out of the 1950's UK, (can only imagine). The teachers, one in particular was awful -  the directrice - she was very happy to wield her power (albeit administrative). In these villages power is all they have and schools are remotely managed from Administrative centres who have no idea of what really goes on and if they are  are accepting.  The locals accept the ways as this is all they know - their attitude is to put up and shut up.

We left France because we did not want this for our children, France is lovely and I love her dearly but not at the expense of my children's precious childhood.   I struggled because I knew there was better out there for my children. People still ask me why did I leave France, and I tell them it is not simply about sunny days, petit filous adverts,drinking and eating. My children have choices back in the UK and a very good education (although not perfect) system, it also rains alot and its cold. I strike a balance, but reading through your posts and I know it is not just simple to up sticks and move elsewhere, but I fear that you have walked into an environment that you will not change but will have to ride a rollercoaster to live with.  I wish you the best and my heart goes out to you.

 

Deby (not in France) :-)

 

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="odile"] But I would say try to see if from now on you can support the teacher, and work as a team. Your child need to know that the teacher bechaved badly, but that it doesn;t give him the right to challenge her authority in future.

[/quote]er - my child went into school the next morning and apologised to the teacher for being inattentive and promised to try better in future.  He didn't tell HER at the  meeting that evening that she was only repeating what I had said - he only told me afterwards.  It was the older child, who had experienced no bad treatment, who stood up and disagreed that she had not really been rough - because she had witnessed the rough treatment.   I do support the teacher and my children know not to challenge her or be disrespectful in any way - but they also know that if they are at all worried or scared, they can tell me, and I will investigate thoroughly and deal with it.  I would like to point out that the first note I wrote was on 21st October this year so you can hardly accuse me of being an overprotective parent who has rushed in, believing her child to be perfect and innocent.  I left it this long because I know his behaviour can be frustrating (he gets bored in class and goes into dreamer mode) and also made allowances because I thought he needed time to settle in and get used to the different environment, which means more rules and less discussion than he was used to.  I know quite a lot of the children in the class now and have asked them how they feel, so I know it's not just my son who was having problems.

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="odile"]Good point Sue. and the same applies to the majority (perhaps all) of European countries- where 'how' to teach and the ability to communicate, and positively 'control' children seems irrelevant- during training, during teaching practice and during the registration year after graduation.

[/quote]I've run training courses for adults in the past and found that often the best way is to present the information in a different way, to aid understanding when there is a problem.

To quote my youngest in her class 'the trouble is I tell her I don't understand and she just says exactly the same thing again, but louder, and then LOUDER!  She seems to think if she shouts it louder it will help me understand, but it doesn't."  (Aged 9)

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Debnfamily"]
To quote my youngest in her class 'the trouble is I tell her I don't understand and she just says exactly the same thing again, but louder, and then LOUDER!  She seems to think if she shouts it louder it will help me understand, but it doesn't."  (Aged 9)
[/quote]

Have you asked your son why he doesn't understand the teacher.  Have you considererd that you expecting too much of a 9 year old to understand a language that is probably new to him and I doubt spoken outside of the classroom? 

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

[quote user="Debnfamily"]

To quote my youngest in her class 'the trouble is I tell her I don't understand and she just says exactly the same thing again, but louder, and then LOUDER!  She seems to think if she shouts it louder it will help me understand, but it doesn't."  (Aged 9)

[/quote]

Have you asked your son why he doesn't understand the teacher.  Have you considererd that you expecting too much of a 9 year old to understand a language that is probably new to him and I doubt spoken outside of the classroom? 

[/quote]Of course - are you saying 9 is too old to consider relocating to France?  He is in the correct class for his age whereas the two older children are in a class a year behind where they would have been had they started school in France.  He is doing well considering - he actually started in CE1 (a year behind also) at the beginning of May last year but then skipped CE2 and went straight to CM1 because he passed all the tests and they thought he would be fine in with his age group.  He has time to redouble if he has real problems but at the moment he appears to be doing better than his older siblings in a lot of areas. 

What is your point, Ron?  She was shouting at him in his extra lesson, which is supposed to aid him in learning French (a new thing this year - there are French kids in there too).  She said his brother was managing ok, which upset him as his brother is two years older and more outgoing and so is picking up the language more easily in some ways (even though he has problems concentrating!).  He has a French/English dictionary which he is quite competent at using, so if it was a language problem (it was) then she could have helped him use that to find the word(s) he didn't understand.  There really is no excuse for shouting at him, in my view, but obviously you have your own views and are entitled to them.

Deby - I know what you mean and I remember reading this forum when you were having your problems and made your decision.  You were one of the reasons we kept an exit strategy in mind, should the children not settle.  I want to give them a good go at it though and not let them think we can go back, or they won't try to settle in.  Things are improving - it just takes time and obviously is a bit upsetting in the meantime (probably more for me than them).  It is hard enough they have to get used to the kids being rough and picking on them for being English without having to deal with rough teachers too.

[odile]

Debnfamily - so glad to hear things are continuing to improve - and hopefully after the hols, everybody will make a fresh start. and well done for fighting the corner so that all the children at the school will benefit.

It's good to remind everybody that shouting louder and louder at anybody, doesn't make them understand! Including (some) English  people in shops, with artisans, plumbers, etc!

Joyeux Noel et bonne Annee a tous

[Boiling a frog]

I have read this thread with interest.

How many times have people said  "" We have come to France because it is just like England was 50 years ago"".

And now they are finding out that it is true the bad  as well as the good things.

One of the cultural differences is the attitude and laws regarding corporal punishment of Children

Corporal punishment is lawful in the home under the parental right of correction. Children only have limited protection under the penal code.

87% of parents have administered corporal punishment ,1 in 10 have admitted using a martinet(a small whip)

In schools there is no explicit prohibition of corporal punishment  and correction is allowed the same as for parents In the 19th c a court ruled that teachers had the right of correction and in the year 2000 a further case stated that habitual and non educational  corporal punishment did not come under the umbrella of the right to correction .

So corporal punishment is common in France and carries over into the classroom.

I have witnessed  violence against children in France which would not be tolerated now in the UK but was common place 50 years ago.

It  must be a huge cultural shock  for young British children suddenly confronted with violence, shouting and screaming in a language that they cannot understand  or have difficulty with while behaving in a manner which is not the accepted norm for French children.

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Debnfamily"][quote user="Ron Avery"]

[quote user="Debnfamily"]
To quote my youngest in her class 'the trouble is I tell her I don't understand and she just says exactly the same thing again, but louder, and then LOUDER!  She seems to think if she shouts it louder it will help me understand, but it doesn't."  (Aged 9)
[/quote]

Have you asked your son why he doesn't understand the teacher.  Have you considererd that you expecting too much of a 9 year old to understand a language that is probably new to him and I doubt spoken outside of the classroom? 

[/quote]

What is your point, Ron? 

[/quote]

It now seems clear from reading your posts that you expect everybody else to make allowances for your children whilst you make no allowance for the different standards and cultural differences in France and its up to the treachers to do what you want when you want to the detriment of the other children in the class.

My point which is as written above is that your child who fidgits and does not pay attention or do as he is told,  probably does not understand half what is being said to him.  Do you really expect in a classroom environment he should be able to understand all the words and has time to look them up in a dictionary? It matters not what level he is at, its what he understands that is important.  Doing a written test means nothing, we can all read French at our own pace, its when its being thrown at you 15 to the dozen and you are supposed to just understand it is when it gets difficult.  Just supposing that your son looks up the words he does not understand in his dictionary as you expect him to be able to, what do the other kids do whilst he catches up the bits that he has missed?

[Cat]

Even if the child has difficulty understanding French (and you seem to be assuming that he hasn't been in France long, which I don't think is the case) Deb is perfectly within her rights to demand and expect that a 9 year old child is not manhandled by a teacher.

What would you suggest, Ron, that Deb should do?  If you're going to offer criticism, you might at least try to temper the negative with a little positive?

 

[Russethouse]

Ron, As I understand it the woman in charge of the class is a qualified and trained teacher - if she doesn't know that you cannot teach by simply repeating the same thing again, and again louder, and by then getting bad tempered and letting it show, then she is in the wrong job.

If the teacher has a problem with a particular child it her responsibility to resolve it, by bringing it to the parents attention and working with them, if need be. A frightened child will not learn anything, except that school is a place they do not want to be.

If you saw English people in M Bricolage trying to make their needs understood by just repeating their request louder and louder in English to a French assistant, I daresay you would have something negative to say about it......

I think the Op has done the correct thing, she has acknowledged the problem and demonstrated her willingness to resolve the issue in a calm way,  at the same time making it clear that physical means are not to be used on her children. She doesn't post as if she thinks her child is a cherub but has a realistic approach. The school chose the class the child should be in, not the parent (as I read it) The child deserves a chance (as do they all)

 

[Chancer]

The child in question seems very capable of understanding quite complex adult interactions. Perhaps her is too bright for the class and teacher?

[quote user="Debnfamily"]

 He told her he was sorry he hadn’t been concentrating and said just as he had promised me the night before, he now promised her he would do his best to concentrate and follow the rules.  He said she was just repeating what I had already said to him and he repeated to her what he had promised me but it felt a bit different because he felt as if her promise to keep her temper in check was conditional upon him concentrating and following the rules! 

[/quote]

Or perhaps they are not his words.

PS Can one actually insist that the school does not discipline your child in the same way as others? It could have the unwanted effect of the child being singled out and bullied by his peers, perhaps the "get out of jail free" note in his pocket was not such a bad idea?

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Cat"]

Even if the child has difficulty understanding French (and you seem to be assuming that he hasn't been in France long, which I don't think is the case) Deb is perfectly within her rights to demand and expect that a 9 year old child is not manhandled by a teacher.

What would you suggest, Ron, that Deb should do?  If you're going to offer criticism, you might at least try to temper the negative with a little positive?

[/quote]

Oh dear I've upset the mothers knitting circle!!  Well sorry that I did not rush in and demand a French teacher,  teaching French children in France to widely accepted (except by a couple of immigrants) French standards of discipline,  be sacked because some english immigrant does not like her little Johnny being "manhandled" when he disrupts the class and steals time from the other children who want to learn.

Where is the criticism?  That the OP expects that everyone stops and waits while her child finds out what was said every two minutes and the other kids kick their heels whilst he does so?

 Just how do you know from her posts how long the kid has been in school?  Its appears less than a year in school at the most and his French is so good he is in a special class to learn French,  and nowhere does the OP say what she has does to help him, apart from moan about his teacher[:@]. 

What I suggest she does is think whether she can do anything to help him understand French better, like speaking it in the home from time to time, or send him for extra French lessons somewhere outside of school where he is under less pressure.

[Cat]

Mothers' knitting circle, don't make me laugh!

Thanks for saying sorry though, most gentlemanly [:)]

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]In schools there is no explicit prohibition of corporal punishment  and correction is allowed the same as for parents[/quote]Oops - I thought it WAS prohibited, which is why I girded my loins and went and complained (I thought I was on solid ground).  The teacher didn't correct me when I told her the law said she shouldn't hit the children and that in my view, flinging them around by their clothes came under this umbrella.  So they are allowed to strike children then?  That doesn't seem to be the view of a lot of people - some of whom are teachers.  I would like to be sure on this, in case anything happens again.

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Debnfamily"][quote user="Ron Avery"]

[quote user="Debnfamily"]

To quote my youngest in her class 'the trouble is I tell her I don't understand and she just says exactly the same thing again, but louder, and then LOUDER!  She seems to think if she shouts it louder it will help me understand, but it doesn't."  (Aged 9)

[/quote]

Have you asked your son why he doesn't understand the teacher.  Have you considererd that you expecting too much of a 9 year old to understand a language that is probably new to him and I doubt spoken outside of the classroom? 

[/quote]

What is your point, Ron? 

[/quote]

It now seems clear from reading your posts that you expect everybody else to make allowances for your children whilst you make no allowance for the different standards and cultural differences in France and its up to the treachers to do what you want when you want to the detriment of the other children in the class.

My point which is as written above is that your child who fidgits and does not pay attention or do as he is told,  probably does not understand half what is being said to him.  Do you really expect in a classroom environment he should be able to understand all the words and has time to look them up in a dictionary? It matters not what level he is at, its what he understands that is important.  Doing a written test means nothing, we can all read French at our own pace, its when its being thrown at you 15 to the dozen and you are supposed to just understand it is when it gets difficult.  Just supposing that your son looks up the words he does not understand in his dictionary as you expect him to be able to, what do the other kids do whilst he catches up the bits that he has missed?

[/quote]OK - it seems that you just want to have an argument or to be insulting.  I have made allowances for the differences - if any of this stuff happened in a UK school I would have been down there the same day telling the teacher what I thought in no uncertain terms.  I checked on here and TF what the rules were in France before I spoke to the teacher, in case this sort of thing was accepted here.  If I had been given that impression then I would simply have removed my son from the school.  The son who was fidgetting understands well.  The son who did not understand something said to him in his extra lesson, a lesson which gives him extra tuition in French vocabulary, outside the normal classes, is a different son who is doing well and in the correct year for his age group, but needs extra help with French, just as a couple of other kids do - French kids.  What do they do while he looks up things in his dictionary?  Struggle along with him to understand the bits they've missed, even though they have been at this school since they started school.  My kids are not the bottom of the class or causing problems for other kids, whether because of their behaviour or because they are behind - there are French kids who do that.  My kids are near the top of the class - even the youngest.  Just because they don't always understand the language, especially the strong local accent, sometimes, does not mean it is ok to shout at them.

How is anything I have done to the detriment of the other children in the class?  They are now all extremely happy that they have a calm and pleasant teacher.  Two parents have thanked us today, on behalf of their children.  They don't seem to mind our kids going to the school - but it seems you do.  What's your problem with English kids going to a French school? 

[Debnfamily]

JR I tried to quote your post but it went horribly wrong!

He didn't actually use the word 'conditonal', he said "I felt as if she only

meant she would keep her promise to stay calm and not hit me as long as

I kept my promise to pay attention".  He possibly could be too bright

for the class ordinarily but he needs the language acquisition so he

needs to stay where he is, for now.

I didn't insist she should

treat my children differently - I insisted it was wrong to hit or in

any way be physical with any of the children.  However, I can only make

an official complaint about her treatment of mine.  It seems she has

stopped doing this with all of the children for now - even the really

difficult ones.  I'm now worried, after what boiling a frog said, that

I have no grounds to insist she doesn't get physical!

[Clair]

[quote user="Debnfamily"][quote user="Boiling a frog"]In schools there is no explicit prohibition of corporal punishment  and correction is allowed the same as for parents[/quote]Oops - I thought it WAS prohibited, which is why I girded my loins and went and complained (I thought I was on solid ground).  The teacher didn't correct me when I told her the law said she shouldn't hit the children and that in my view, flinging them around by their clothes came under this umbrella.  So they are allowed to strike children then?  That doesn't seem to be the view of a lot of people - some of whom are teachers.  I would like to be sure on this, in case anything happens again.[/quote]

[quote]Pour l’école élémentaire, les « réprimandes » sont

laissées à l’appréciation des enseignants. Deux restrictions sont

toutefois apportées, l’interdiction de châtiment corporel ainsi que

celle de la privation de la totalité de la récréation.

source (in French) and in Google English HERE.[/quote]

[Clair]

More in French HERE and in google English HERE.

[woolybanana]

Debnfamily, I am so glad you have fought this one through as my kids went through various forms of abuse in the Francophone system. Which I fought. 

But then I was slippered frequently at school so it does not seem so hideous. I think however that the odd push and pull is preferable to the insidious destruction that some kids go through over years to turn them into good little robots or because they don't fit in.

Keep fighting the bast****. Soon enough some of the other parents will thank you, if they dare.

Good luck and don't be upset by GOG.

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Good luck and don't be upset by GOG.

[/quote] I was caned but in senior school and it made me rebel rather than conform.  I don't think it does any good.  What is GOG???  I'm a little tired after typing the following in response to Ron's comments, so perhaps I'm being a bit dim!

**************

I really don’t understand why Ron is making all these

assumptions.  I have three children in

this class.  The class has rows of

children who are in CM1 and rows in CM2 but they are all in one classroom.  My children are doing well on most tests.  The teacher considers the tests to be very

important and indicative of progress, even if Ron doesn’t.  The elder two of them failed geography

marginally, along with half of the class. 

My younger son passed that one. 

In fact, the younger son hasn’t failed a test yet – though he has had

the odd low mark in an informal spelling test, usually when he’s forgotten to

tell me he has a test so I haven’t practiced them with him (he gets the same

spelling test as the older children).  

My older son is not normally badly behaved and the teacher

only mentioned this supposed fidgeting and lack of attention when I complained

about HER behaviour.  Prior to that, at

parent’s evening, she said he could be a bit of a day dreamer and keen to get

into the playground to play football but she considered all of this normal for

his age group and he was doing well in his work (though a bit untidy at times).  Suddenly she gives the impression this has

escalated and tries to use the escalation to excuse her behaviour.  The other two children don’t think he has

behaved any differently than normally.  I

have given her the benefit of the doubt and searched for reasons he might have

been more fidgety than usual or less attentive than usual and tried to address

them.  I made him apologise to her and

promise to try harder, leaving her behaviour aside as a separate subject, he

needs to know he has to concentrate in class and be tidy in this work or he may

have problems in college.  Anything he

can do better to please her will hopefully lessen her explosiveness with him.  However, I don’t think he has been bad and I

know for a fact that there are far, far worse behaved children than him in the

class who are far more untidy and less attentive.  Ron – do you think possibly she was trying to

excuse her own behaviour by complaining about my son’s?  As far as I was concerned it was irrelevant to

the subject as I could not agree with her behaviour.  

The son who was being shouted at is my younger son.  He is in a class which is held to help those

children who are behind the expected norm in French.  These classes are a new innovation this year (in

all French schools) and are held to help children behind in French and maths.  He also gets extra help with French vocabulary

when the other children are busy doing English.  My eldest child stays in the English class to

help the teacher with pronunciation.  The

younger two go into the French vocabulary lessons – which is when my younger

son needs his dictionary.  The older son

(who is the one Ron seems to think is disrupting the class because he needs

help and doesn’t understand) is actually there to help the younger son and the

teaching assistant understand each other.  My younger son feels it is unfair to compare

him to the older son.  I agree.  He is less confident with French because he

was younger and more shy when we first came here two years ago and the teachers

in the other school let him off with a lot, saying ‘he is young and timid – he will

catch up later’.  He isn’t as behind as

he would have been because I disagreed with that attitude and made him do extra

work at home.

There are French kids in the ‘extra help’ class who are

getting worse results than my younger son and who can’t use a dictionary at

all, so the teacher is ordinarily quite happy for him to use one – it’s not a

problem.   In fact, they have recently being doing

dictionary exercises in class that have helped him speed up.  The level of French they are doing in the

normal class is actually quite in line with what my children need.  In one way they are lucky: they are learning

it correctly from the start whereas the French children have learned how to

speak the language with no idea that the words they are saying are spelled in

different ways depending on the tense or context or meaning, even though they may

sound the same.   Maybe another reason

the language is at a good level for them is that a lot of the children only

learn French when they come to school, as they speak Occitan at home. 

My children can communicate well with the other children and

write as they speak, which is apparently normal for the other children too, and

is what the teacher is trying to teach them out of, if you see what I mean!  Writing as you speak in English often works

quite well, but with all the differences between spoken and written French it

doesn’t work well at all.  My children

are learning these differences along with the French children, but also along

with learning/expanding their spoken vocabulary, so I think they are lucky in

that they don’t have to ‘relearn’ written French as much as the French children

do.  This is probably why they get full

marks for spelling tests and the French children don’t.

As I mentioned, our children first came to France and

started school here two years ago.  They

spent six months in school (the other village school, which houses CP, CE1 and

CE2) and then we had to return to England.  We returned in April this year and they all

rejoined their old classes, now a year further on.  In September, my younger son skipped CE2 and

joined CM1, because the teachers didn’t feel he needed to do CE2 and would be

better off joining those in his own age group and redoubling CM1 later if he

had any problems.  The older two stayed

with the class they had originally joined, who should be a year younger than

them but are in fact of mixed ages as quite a lot of them have redoubled in the

past.  One French child who is in CM1 and

also one in CM2 are to ‘triple’ this year (it has already been decided).  My younger son’s only complaint is that he is

the only boy in CM1.  I’ve told him he

probably won’t mind that when he’s a bit older! 

I don’t think my son will need to redouble CM1.  I think his language will improve over the

year and especially next year when the older two leave and go to college and he

has to manage on his own.  The teacher

has already said that both my older children are already expected to go to

college next year (from their results so far) but the formal tests are in

January and February.  

At home, when they have energy after the huge amount of

homework they get to do,  my children

study the curriculum using the ‘tout savoir’ range of books.  We do this with them to see that they catch up

on the history and French they have missed and also keep up to date with maths,

in case any language difficulties cause them to miss the point on anything.  This gave them good language practice at first

too as they often needed to translate the questions into English to work out

the problems and then translate them back into French to give the answer.  This works well for the eldest child and

younger of the three but the middle one (the fidgety one) hates using his

dictionary and so makes silly mistakes because he doesn’t understand the

question or makes an incorrect assumption.  I’m going to make him do some translation work

to speed up his dictionary usage.  

As for speaking the language at home, we’ve been told not to

bother.  We’ve been told it is best to

speak English at home and make sure their first language is kept up (when the

pressure is off, later, they will take up English lessons).  The accent my husband and I have learned and

speak with is different to the local one and is not the accent the children need

to learn.  When they hear me speak French

they mutter corrections to my accent – which is quite irritating!  The children find it hard to understand our

neighbour, who is from Paris,

whereas we find her easy to understand and the locals really hard!  

The teachers advised us to put the children straight into

school rather than put them through a course at home first, because of the

accent issue and because they said there is no substitution for the intensive

experience of having to learn French in order to communicate whilst at school

during both work and play.  The children

were advanced in all subjects except French language and history.  It was no problem to allow them this time to

catch up on those two and let the other subjects go or give practice at home

where necessary.  The teachers agreed

with this and did not foresee a problem in class.  There still isn’t one.  My children by no means ‘steal’ attention from

the others in the class!

None of this will convince Ron, I am sure, that my children

are anything other than badly behaved English hooligans who have come to France to

disrupt the education of the local children. 

I wasn’t going to post this message and have retyped it, but then I

thought what the hey – it might help other parents considering moving to France

appreciate some of the problems that may happen.  

There is another English boy in the class who is one of the

loudest to shout ‘NO SPEAKING ENGLISH ALLOWED!’ if one of mine slips up in

class or in the playground.  I suppose if

mine do that to a newcomer it will be a sign that they have fitted in, but I

hope they won’t – I hope they will remember how upsetting it was for them and

try to help the new child, not make them feel like a pariah for not being

fluent in French.

 

 

[odile]

Well done again Debnfamily - You did the right thing. What follows is about the subject, NOT your children, please understand this.

But let's not let the pendulum swing too far (far too far) the other way in France, as it has done in the UK - where so many teachers give up as teaching has become impossible in so many schools - because the kids are KINGS and the parents don't support the teachers. The kids who lose out are the majority - and the kids who lose the most are the quite not so bright ones - who get no attention at all from the teachers - as they are battling with a few badly behaved kids, to the cost an detriment of all

[Russethouse]

GOG - Grumpy old Gits