abusive primaire teacher

[Debnfamily]

Where do I stand if I am unhappy with the way the teacher is handling my son?

She pushes and shoves him, pulls him around by his clothes, screams at

him up close and personal and has slapped him - though not very hard

and I'm not sure if it was more of a push on the face with the heel of

her hand and he was just scared because he's seen her hit the other

children in the class.

I put a note in his cahier de liaison stating that she does not

have permission to hit any of my children. He didn't want to show her

it the first time she upset him as he said it would cause more

problems. I said ok - but if she ever worries you again, or manhandles

you or hits you, show her the note.

Today she dragged him about by his t-shirt so he showed her the

note and apparently she had a screaming fit, said he has to stay in

school - but he got out when the other kids left and came home. She

told my daughter she would be telephoning me immediately to arrange a

meeting, but the call never came.

Apparently a teaching assistant joined in and also shouted at him

and got hold of his ear-lobe, pulled him by it and shouted 'would you

prefer it this way?' It's quite painful if someone pulls your earlobe.

I felt like going down to the school and pulling the teaching assistant

by the earlobe and asking how she likes it, but apparently she leaves

before the kids.

I'm really furious about this and I feel I should keep the children

off school until I've met with the teacher, but I'm not sure if I

shouldn't make a formal complaint. The fact that I haven't discussed it

personally with her yet makes me feel I should hold off but I'm in a

bit of a dilemma. Has anyone any experience of this sort of thing? Any

advice?

[Chrissie]

There was a similar thread last summer. Sorry, I don't know how to get a link for you but if you go into "search" and go for the advanced search options, then look for "teacher AND hit" in French Education forum, it will come up.  I'm sure other parents will post here soon.  I am not a parent, but I feel strongly that you should go in person as soon as possible to resolve this issue.

Good luck

Chrissie (81)

[Clair]

This is a previous discussion about the same topic: http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/978656/ShowPost.aspx

In the first instance, make it the school problem by requesting a meeting with the directeur or directrice.

Make a note of all your concerns and keep a list of your contacts.

If you are not confident in your language abilities, ask someone who speaks French fluently to accompany you to the meeting.

Be clear about what you want to achieve and give them a chance to remedy the situation.

Do not get angry, but express your concerns regarding your son and the way the teachers have been conducting themselves with him (and possibly other pupils?)

[Debnfamily]

    OK - thanks, Clair.  I think I'll have to visit the mairie as I'm not sure who is directeur or directrice now.  The teacher she replaced this year used to have that role but I don't think she took it over.  I stopped myself going to see her today because I would have found it very hard to stay calm after seeing my son so upset.  I don't think I'll send them back into school though, until I've discussed this with whoever needs to address it.

[odile]

Debnfamily - absolutely no excuse for the behaviour of the teacher or assistant, that is clear. Hope all goes well when you go and see the Directeur/trice and that you find a good way forward.

But- I do hope you have also discussed with your son whether his behaviour is appropriate or not. (again NO excuse even if he was badly behaved). It's very important that he doesn't think that if you are angry with the teacher, and the teacher has behaved badly - it is OK for him to cause mayhem, or be rude, or whatever. I'm sure it would help with the Head if you take on board that your child was (possibly - maybe not) not totally innocent and that you have dealt with the issue with him. Bonne chance.

[moonraker]

How come three months into the school year you don't know who the headteacher is? Have you ever met the teacher your child is having problems with? I think you should start by speaking to her and find out what her problem is rather than giving notes for your child to give her. Contact between teachers and parents is really necessary as both are part of the child's upbringing.

[Kitty]

Thank you Debnfamily for posting.  It must be difficult for you.

It is important that potential newcomers to France know about the cultural differences in the educational systems and posts such a yours helps in that process.  My daughter has been doing several weeks of work experience in petit and moyen sections (pre-reception and reception in the UK) and is very surprised about the smacking that goes on.  The teachers threaten to smack their bottoms and regularly do that.  They pull children around.  They also place crying and upset children in isolation and these are children who start school at 3 years old and are left there from 8am until 6pm.

Deb - You must take this up with the directeur/directrice and if your French is not up to it, take someone with you.  Please let us know how you get on.  There will be posters who say that discipline is good for children, but there has to be limits to physical violence by adults on children.

 

[Debnfamily]

We went to see the maire but apparently the mairie are responsible for the school buildings and supplementary staff like those in the canteen, garderie and groundspeople but not the actual teaching staff.  Its necessary to contact 'education nationale'.  

We spoke to the teacher this evening.  We went for an appointment at 4.30 and didn't leave until 6.30.  The teaching assistant was there too.  We stuck to the subject of violence with the children, doggedly, because after denying it (we told them there had been witnesses other than our own children, and in any case, our own children weren't in the habit of lying) and then went onto the problems they are having with the child concerned.  No problems have been mentioned to date - until this morning when we made the appointment.  

We made it clear that the problems are irrelevant to the subject of physical violence, whether this is slapping, pulling, pushing, grabbing by the ear - its all the same and totally unacceptable.  They both agreed never to touch any of our children in any way in future.  We then were able to move on to ways of communicating if there were problems and ways of doing this immediately, because we were unaware that she has been having problems for 3 weeks.   

Just have to see how it goes from here.  Fingers crossed.  I gave her a letter this time so there is a written record.   We made it clear if there are any further incidents, we will call the gendarmes.

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="moonraker"]

How come three months into the school year you don't know who the headteacher is? Have you ever met the teacher your child is having problems with? I think you should start by speaking to her and find out what her problem is rather than giving notes for your child to give her. Contact between teachers and parents is really necessary as both are part of the child's upbringing.

[/quote]Its a village school, housing the cm1 and cm2 classes only, 23 children in all.  The director is at one of the other schools in the circuit (and I still have no idea who he is but he's apparently at the salle de fetes for the school spectacle on Friday, where I will meet him along with all the other parents, for the first time).

Of course I know who the teacher is, you ******.  I was at a parents evening with her just prior to the toussaints holiday where she told me how wonderful and hardworking all my children were!  I've also seen her at the various village events we have attended since.  She recently asked me to attend school to help explain how English families celebrate Xmas, as part of their English project.  I provided carols and music for the end of year spectacle.  The 'note' is how she communicates any problems on either side.  If she has a problem or wants to speak to me she writes in the relevant child's cahier de text.  If I have a problem or want to speak to her, I do the same.  She checks all the children's cahiers de texte daily. 

I DO have 4 children and am well aware what is necessary and part of a child's upbringing.

Thanks to all those people who made helpful comments.  This has been quite a stressful few days for me and though I wanted to sign on and write an update to this thread,  thinking it only polite, I'm now worn out and signing off! 

[Clair]

Deb

I have caught up with what you posted on another forum and I must applaud you for making a stand.

Regardless of the problems encountered by the teacher(s), violence, be it verbal or physical, towards a child must not be tolerated.

I hope this give the teaching staff food for thought.

Well done.

[Kitty]

Well done, Deb.  It has to be done.  I would think that your next move is to have a proper meeting with the headteacher so that he knows what has been happening.  Good luck.

 

[Ron Avery]

 Of course nothing that any english child does in a  French school deserves any measure of violence and such horrendous violence at that.[8-)]

 I wonder what he had been doing to deserve such treatment and not just on one occasion either. Is it something he is allowed to do at home and there is a cultural difference?

[Russethouse]

From what I read elsewhere I think it was trying to help another child that sparked the attack - whatever the reason the teacher is demonstrating inappropriate behavior toward any child.

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

From what I read elsewhere I think it was trying to help another child that sparked the attack - whatever the reason the teacher is demonstrating inappropriate behavior toward any child.

[/quote]

 

Read elsewhere where?  The OP says gives the impression that this is a series of attacks on her child and presumably continuing events that spark these attacks?

I read "She pushes and shoves him, pulls him around by his clothes, screams at him up close and personal and has slapped him - though not very hard .........  all plural  and then................

Today she dragged him about by his t-shirt so he showed her the note and apparently she had a screaming fit, said he has to stay in school - but he got out when the other kids left and came home.

[Debnfamily]

    Ron - apparently he was fidgetty in class (worse in the afternoons, so he's now off caffienated drinks at lunchtime, just in case they ar making him hyper), messing around with a keyring attached to his pencil case (now removed from it) and when his friend was explaining a question to him, he did it in English (the boy's mother is English) and they are not allowed to speak English in school.  She also complained that he spoke English when playing football in the playground - something the last teacher, also directeur, used to allow.  She also said he wasn't listening (often typical of a boy of this age).  Really nothing I could understand her flipping over.  However, I know she has some kids in the class who behave quite badly so maybe my son just got the brunt of it when she lost patience. 

The main thing is, even if he had behaved badly, she shouldn't handle it with anything physical and she should speak to us, his parents.  We've made it quite clear we have plenty of ways of punishing him at home if necessary and we are happy for him to lose playtimes or do lines or those types of punishment at school.  We simply don't expect him to be afraid to go to school because his teacher might throw him around and injure him!  Both teachers denied it at first or made out they hadn't been as rough as claimed - but our other children and other children in the class have confirmed what happened, so we stuck to our guns. 

The thing is, some of the other kids I know of who have actually been hit actually get just as bad or worse at home so their parents aren't worried.  That's why I first wrote a note saying I didn't give my permission for this - in case it was assumed by her that she had permission because others gave theirs.  My son didn't immediately show her it but kept it in case it happened again.  She now has a letter reiterating this and clarifying that I include pulling, pushing, throwing etc in 'hitting'.  She is now perfectly aware that I do not condone her touching my son (unless it's an emergency and he or another child may get hurt, obviously) and if she does it again she can accept the consequences because I will do as promised and report her. 

[Ron Avery]

"Really nothing I could understand her flipping over.  However, I know she has some kids in the class who behave quite badly so maybe my son just got the brunt of it when she lost patience" 

 I suspect that therein lies the real problem!! Frustration and built up annoyance at others.

A French teacher friend told me that the general level of behaviour in secondary schools has deteriorated in the last few years and that has directly led to an alarmingly high proportion of French teenagers leaving school without being able to read and write theitr own laguage.

This became a national scandal and prompted the appointment of teaching assistants in many schools to take additional classes to tackle the problem but a lot of the assistants left because of the behaviour issue and now focus on youngsters below 11 as they can make some diffrerence there.

[Russethouse]

apparently he was fidgetty in class (worse in the afternoons, so he's now off caffienated drinks at lunchtime, just in case they ar making him hyper

It may be worth checking for tartrazine and amaranth too, (you may need to google their E numbers) my son was a little B if he had either or both.......

[Rob Roy]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

"Really nothing I could understand her flipping over.  However, I know she has some kids in the class who behave quite badly so maybe my son just got the brunt of it when she lost patience" 

 I suspect that therein lies the real problem!! Frustration and built up annoyance at others.

A French teacher friend told me that the general level of behaviour in secondary schools has deteriorated in the last few years and that has directly led to an alarmingly high proportion of French teenagers leaving school without being able to read and write theitr own laguage.

This became a national scandal and prompted the appointment of teaching assistants in many schools to take additional classes to tackle the problem but a lot of the assistants left because of the behaviour issue and now focus on youngsters below 11 as they can make some diffrerence there.

[/quote]

It is not just the general level of behaviour in secondary schools - the children in primary are just as bad. I was amazed when I started working in primary schools here at how badly behaved the children are on the whole. The teachers are at their wits end trying to get them to pay any attention in class, and whilst I don't agree with, or condone, hitting a child, I think using words like 'abusive' is very emotive and unnecessary. I would be interested to know what people think should be done to maintain discipline when faced with up to 25 or so children who are not paying any attention to what you are trying to teach them.  Sending them out of class, giving them lines as punishment, keeping them in at playtime, it all happens but has little effect. The children you see out with their parents, being so polite and charming, turn into completely different beings when in the classroom.

[tegwini]

Debs

If your son was told to stay behind, but got out when the others left,  he's not doing as he's told.

Only if you can be a fly on the wall can a parent really know what is happening in the class & how difficult it can be.

We had a daughter who was very difficult at home even at primary school age, but we constantly emphasised that she must behave at school and that we would support the teacher.   Constantly the school told us how good she was - no change at home where she could be a right little .......   !

Hope you do sort this problem out however.

Regards

Tegwini 

[Chancer]

[quote user="Rob Roy"][quote user="Ron Avery"]

"[/quote]

 The children you see out with their parents, being so polite and charming, turn into completely different beings when in the classroom.

[/quote]

I suspect that you are talking about the UK RobRoy?

In my area it is quite the opposite, you would have to see the social conditions that they live under and experience the "values" of the parents but believe me that for most children schooling is the only order and discipline in their lives.

Regular as clockwork during les vacances or half term after a week of living 24/7 with the parents or grand-parents they become corrupted and start comporting like them.

[Debnfamily]

I’d like to say thank you to those people who were

supportive of me over this issue – and also give an update.

The day after our 2 hour meeting with the teacher and

teaching assistant, they called our children to a meeting and discussed the

situation.  The teacher tried to say she

hadn’t pushed or shoved very hard but my eldest said ‘well – except for those

times when you through my brother over to his desk/over to the stage to write

his name on the punishment board/into the canteen’.  She said it wasn’t as hard as she had seen the

kids pushing each other in the playground.  My eldest replied ‘yes, but that’s kids and we

know we are playing – it’s totally different because you are an adult and your

face is red and you are angry and we know it’s serious and it’s quite scary!’  (My eldest hasn’t experienced any of this but

has just seen the middle child treated in this way.)  Eventually, the teacher admitted she had

shouted a lot and had lost her temper. 

She apologised for this, and for the pulling and shoving, and promised

to do her best to keep her temper in check in future but said it was difficult

sometimes when dealing with 23 children, a fair few of whom misbehave. 

She told my son she hoped he would try to concentrate and

follow the rules in future.  He told her

he was sorry he hadn’t been concentrating and said just as he had promised me

the night before, he now promised her he would do his best to concentrate and

follow the rules.  He said she was just

repeating what I had already said to him and he repeated to her what he had

promised me but it felt a bit different because he felt as if her promise to

keep her temper in check was conditional

upon him concentrating and following the rules! 

Anyway, since then the teacher has apparently been a model

of decorum, speaking quietly to the children, even when she is telling them

off, and not touching anyone.  The other

kids in the class have noticed and said to ours that they don’t know what was

said in our meeting, but it has caused a transformation in the teacher that

they are very happy with!

One of the things I told this teacher was that the previous

teacher (a man who had been there a very long time) was quite physical with those

children who were really naughty and disobedient.  He did the knuckles on the top of the head

thing, he would grab hair at the temple (very painful apparently – he did this

to my son), slap them with books or text books, hit out with rulers, pick them

up by the scruff of the neck and throw them in the class armoire, there to stay

until he deigned to let them out, or make them sit under their desk until he

let them up.  He also gave them playtime

detention and one notorious child owed him 140 playtime detentions at the end

of last year!  

My kids were a little worried at first when they saw all of

this going on.  However, they found it

never happened to them (apart from the hair pulling thing that one time) as

they always behaved well compared to the kids it did happen to.  They and all the other kids too, even those

on the receiving end of this behaviour, felt that he only did these things when

it was justified!  They felt he was fair,

didn’t lose his temper unnecessarily and was a good laugh – he played games

with them in the playground at playtime, when he was off duty so he didn’t need

to.    She looked really shocked when I told her

that the consensus of the class was that they preferred the old teacher,

because he was reasonable and even tempered whereas she was unreasonable, bad

tempered, unpredictable, hysterical and didn’t even play with them at playtime

to try and even things out a bit!

 Someone suggested it might be worth talking to the parents

council about my problem.  The trouble

with this was, the only parent I know who is on the council (which covers three

schools, two in different villages, because the classes are spread around the

villages to keep all three village schools in use and open) is someone who I

have seen hit her child harder than I have ever seen anyone hit even a dog,

never mind a child.  She may not agree

with other people hitting her child

and think it is her own preserve, but because of her behaviour, I didn’t feel

she was someone I could approach about this. 

 Anyway, all seems well so far – let’s hope it continues

after the holidays into the New Year!

 

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="tegwini"]

Debs

If your son was told to stay behind, but got out when the others left,  he's not doing as he's told.

Only if you can be a fly on the wall can a parent really know what is happening in the class & how difficult it can be.

[/quote]I understand she's not allowed to keep him back after school.  He figured she wasn't his 'boss' after school closing time and so he would come home and tell me.  He also thought she might hit him if he was alone with her.  I totally understood and agreed with what he did.  I live 100 metres from the school so she could easily have come and spoke to me or even just phoned.  I don't need to be a fly on the wall - I know exactly how my son behaves and I know he has problems staying attentive in class but I don't condone physical punishment of any kind.  I also have two other children in the same class who tell me what happened from their perspective.  He wasn't badly behaved.  In his old school in the UK, also a small rural village school where all three children were in the same class, his behaviour would not have been commented upon.   The laws about hitting children - or not - appear to be the same in both countries.  It was the teacher who was badly behaved.

[Debnfamily]

[quote user="Rob Roy"]It is not just the general level of behaviour in secondary schools - the children in primary are just as bad. I was amazed when I started working in primary schools here at how badly behaved the children are on the whole. The teachers are at their wits end trying to get them to pay anyattention in class, and whilst I don't agree with, or condone, hitting a child, I think using words like 'abusive' is very emotive and unnecessary. I would be interested to know what people think should be done to maintain discipline when faced with up to 25 or so children who are not paying any attention to what you are trying to teach them.  Sending them out of class, giving them lines as punishment, keeping them in at playtime, it all happens but has little effect. The children you see out with their parents, being so polite and charming, turn into completely different beings when in the classroom. [/quote]The behaviour was abusive, simple.  In the current climate in the UK, if I was witnessed treating my child like the teacher did then I would be reported to social services.  Why should a teacher get away with it?  Yes, it is a difficult job.  A job she is trained to do and paid to do. 

My last complaint to this teacher was within the first couple of weeks of term, when two of my children came home with horrible grazes on knees, hips and shoulders  from being pushed over in the playground - but the same child, repeatedly.  My husband went  to see the teacher and show her the latest graze, on my son's hip (5 inches long and 1.4 inches wide) and said it was unacceptable.  She said she had written notes to the parents but the child's behaviour stayed bad and she couldn't control him.  My husband said she should tell the child's father that he should deal with his son's behaviour or he would visit him to make sure he did (he has less of a problem with violence than I do - and feels justified at the idea of taking it out on the adult he feels should be controlling his child!).  She looked worried and said he couldn't speak to the child's parents, and that she had to deal with it.  My husband said fine - but pass my message on.  We don't know if she did pass the message on but she did write to them, call them in for a meeting and tell them that if his behaviour continued she would have to exclude him from class because a lot of the parents were very angry that their children were being hurt.  This seems to have worked.  This was the child who owed the old teacher 140 playtimes.

I don't know how to handle bad behaviour in a class of 23 kids.  I do know how to handle it with my own kids.  If the teacher tells me there is a problem then I will deal with it at home in my own way.  If I don't, then I should expect that my child may be excluded.  However, if my child goes to school - he should feel safe there.  He may do if this teacher continues to behave calmly.  Perhaps the kids will follow her example.

[tegwini]

" I don't need to be a fly on the wall - I know exactly how my son behaves" - Debs

Well, I've heard that before, and listened to parents at parent's evenings tell me that their child is 'gifted' very intelligent, wonderfully keen ... when their child is thick and a disruptive influence in class.

I  also don't accept that anyone should condone a child actually defying the teacher  if she asks him to stay behind, and encouraging a child to believe that he can do that  is not  helping the school, the teacher  or the child's future.   Some UK schools are grim  because many parents do not support the school or the teachers. Ultimately  it's the children who suffer. 

Perhaps you do know your child wonderfully well, many parents don't, but teachers these days need all the support they can get from everyone, and especially from parents.  More so from ex-pat parents. 

 Violence should not be condoned, but you would need to be a fly on the wall to be 100% sure that the stories you have heard are not exaggerated.

Glad you seem to have sorted it out.

 Tegwini

 

[odile]

Like robroy and Tegwini - I was a teacher for 20+ years - and I remember so many occasions when parents just refused to accept that their child is badly behaved - and that working as a team, we can help the child improve her/his behaviour - and therefore her/his learning, followed by improved self-esteem, improved results, improved prospects, improved future. It is because so many parents refuse to support teachers, refuse to work WITH teachers and actually encourage their child to defy teachers - that so many of us- (and sadly often the best) are leaving the profession in droves. I remember a Afro-Caribean mother telling me at a parents' evening that I 'picked on' her child, and implied I was racist. i replied that it is because I DO care for her child and hie future that I DO insist on reasonable behaviour and effort- and that it would be very easy for me NOT to bother and let him fall through the net. We did become good friends socially after that, and Owen did (and still does) very well.

Debnfamily - THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR A TEACHER BEATING A CHILD - end off, I absolutely agree with you. And well done for fighting for him and I do hope things will continue to improve for all the children in the class. But I would say try to see if from now on you can support the teacher, and work as a team. Your child need to know that the teacher bechaved badly, but that it doesn;t give him the right to challenge her authority in future. Perhaps YOU could join the school council and get involved in supporting the whole school that way- the staff and the children. Bonne chance.