Please settle an argument !!

[Will]

I think I understand the point you are making, but why is a vehicle on foreign plates any more likely to hit a bus stop full of people than a French one? In fact given the accident rate and driving standards in France the latter is rather more likely. And the scarcity of buses drops the likelihood even further.

If these vehicles have French insurance then the insurer is under some obligation. By issuing the insurance documents the insurer takes on a risk, and although in the event of a claim will do all it can to minimise the risk, it would be very unlikely that the insurer could avoid the legal minimum cover.

Regarding the ferry ports, a little while ago, with a long wait for the ferry, I took a look at the car park at Caen Ouitsreham. There were plenty of UK vehicles, and of the many that had no valid tax disc displayed, I think there were only a couple with CT stickers and only one with a French insurance vignette. The lack of any obvious insurance cover is, to me at least,  far more worrying than British-plated vehicles with French insurance etc, as they will at least have some cover, even if it is nowhere near as comprehensive as the owner thinks.

[Quillan]

Andy - Yes it's cheaper as a foot passenger but how do they get around on the other side, they don't all live in Dover? The cost o public transport in the UK is quite high and you see many queuing in the car hire place to collect their cars. Not saying they are all Brits with illegal cars mind but I bet a few are.

Will - I think you will find that quite p[ossibly written in to the French policy there may be a bit that refers to the time limit imposed for registering your car in France after which the policy becomes void. I am talking about serial offenders just like some of the characters already mentioned that think its OK till they have an accident and the insurance company refuses to pay out claiming that they did not carry out their requirments so the policy is void, if you get my drift.

[Sunday Driver]

According to the code de la route Art 322-1, driving a vehicle without a valid carte grise is a class 4 contravention punishable by a 135 euro fixed penalty fine (increased to 750 euros if it goes to court, eg for persistent offenders).

Current insurance policies must continue to provide the mandatory "road traffic act" cover for third party injuries, but the age-old clause of "disclosing all material facts" (eg, I'd like you to insure an unregistered car which I don't intend to drive on the roads because that would be illegal) will surely hand the insurers the golden get-out to refuse any claims for damage to your vehicle.

 

[Tony F Dordogne]

64,000 euro question - so, you know people who have been doing this for years .............

You've tried to tell them that what they're doing is illegal ...................

They're still driving round on UK registered plates .............

Apart from the obvious, like not getting in the car with them in case they have an accident - and they do happen over the shortest of journeys and can have devastating consequences ............................

Do you dob them in to the local Constabulary?

[mint]

sd

any chance of you telling me how much the french mot, certificate of conformity, changing to lhd headlamps (the whole kybosh) is likely to cost?  i realise you won't know the exact figures but what about a ball park figure; to enable me to weigh up the pros and cons of bringing our cars over?  we have a volvo estate automatic (over 2 litres)  and a hyundai estate automatic (1.6 litres) (both will need mots)

thanks, sd

[fulcrum]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

sd

any chance of you telling me how much the french mot, certificate of conformity, changing to lhd headlamps (the whole kybosh) is likely to cost?  i realise you won't know the exact figures but what about a ball park figure; to enable me to weigh up the pros and cons of bringing our cars over?  we have a volvo estate automatic (over 2 litres)  and a hyundai estate automatic (1.6 litres) (both will need mots)

thanks, sd

[/quote]

This Forum Sticky should get you started.

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/684121/ShowPost.aspx

[Sunday Driver]

Tony

Driving a UK registered car without importing it properly is an offence, but in reality, it's not such a big deal. 

Most people on this forum want to get things sorted properly - either because they believe in being decent citizens and doing the right thing, or they don't want to get nicked and pay the fine.  That's fair enough.  However, the people who just couldn't care less will always get up our noses, but to be honest, there are better things to get concerned about.

And regarding getting into a car with someone like that - the mandatory insurance cover would provide compensation in the event of an accident involving injury to a passenger.  However, I'd be more concerned that having given the V's to every other legal obligation, they might just not have bothered getting insured in the first place.

We might constantly bang on about this,  but none of us would want someone to get caught out and fined for the want of some accurate advice.

 

 

 

[Sunday Driver]

Sweet17

Here are some rough figures to work on when bringing your UK cars over:

Certificate of conformity - 120 euros

LHD headlamps - 60 euros from a breakers yard (caisse auto), 100-150 euros on E-Bay, 250-500+ euros from main dealer.  Estimates variable according to vehicle type

Controle technique - 56 euros 

Registration fee for the Volvo (say, 11CV) - 500 euros if under 10 years old.  250 euros if over 10 years old.

Registration fee for the Hyundai (say, 8-9CV) - 400 euros/200 euros

Number plates - 20 euros a set.

If you buy locally, you'll only end up paying the registration fees and the cost of the number plates.

 

 

[allanb]

[quote user="BobDee"]All Uk insurance policies currently provide third party insurance in the EU...[/quote]Correction: all valid UK insurance policies currently provide third party insurance in the EU.

What I would worry about is the possibility that if you are operating the car in contravention of the French laws on registration, your policy may not be valid.

I admit I'm not completely sure about this, but the risk is potentially horrendous.  If you cause loss or injury and your insurer can deny liability ...

Is it worth it?

[andyh4]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Andy - Yes it's cheaper as a foot passenger but how do they get around on the other side, they don't all live in Dover? The cost o public transport in the UK is quite high and you see many queuing in the car hire place to collect their cars. Not saying they are all Brits with illegal cars mind but I bet a few are.

[/quote]

 

Another banger parked up in Dover or maybe a friend or relative runs down to pick them up.  If they are Londoners, Calais is probabaly the nearest free parking spot [:D] - except the M25 of course.

[mint]

sd & fulcrum

thank you from the bottom of my heart.  i now have all the low-down, kybosh, full monty on importing cars to france.  should be ok as i shall follow all your instructions.

you have been wonderful pals!

kisses

 

[POB]

OK, a friend of mine, and no it is not me, is in the throws of moving to France.  They, are desperate to be entirely legal.  They have been living in various Gites since September but finalised the purchase of their now permanent home here last Friday (15 December).  They have returned to England today 19th December for Christmas and to tidy up their affairs.  The car is currently on UK plates has a current UK road fund licence and is not old enough to require an MOT.   As a result of a number of trips to France visiting relatives (us) and searching for a property here they exhausted the 90 day allowance on their English motor insurance so have taken out French motor insurance and have had their headlamps replaced to suit French requirements.   Do I have to ring them up and tell them they are now uninsured now in England or early in January when they return home?  If so I will ring them immediately as they will wish to rectify the situation in any way they can.

[Ron Avery]

No if you read the thread they are within the period to get their car transfered to French plates if they only bought their house 4 days ago, they might however have trouble in the UK if they get pulled as their car will show up as uninsured on the car borne police computer and they may have to then explain the French insurance to the UK police

[Jonzjob]

Sorry to contridict Ron, but Sept to now is a lot more than 4 weeks... Also as I said before, our insurance broker here said that if a car is on U.K. plates and MOT it MUST have U.K. insurance. SD also said the same thing a long while before me!!!

U.K. plates + French insurance = no, no...

[hoverfrog]

uk plates and french insurance is OK (according to AGF) if you are in the process of re-registering your car. They gave us privisionary certificates until the re-registering was complete.

As far as the cost goes, it all depends on the make/model. The OH has a renault Laguna - cheap as chips. My Kia Sportage was 245 euros PER HEADLIGHT!!!

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Jonzjob"]

Sorry to contridict Ron, but Sept to now is a lot more than 4 weeks... Also as I said before, our insurance broker here said that if a car is on U.K. plates and MOT it MUST have U.K. insurance. SD also said the same thing a long while before me!!!

U.K. plates + French insurance = no, no...

[/quote]

"...........but finalised the purchase of their now permanent home here last Friday (15 December). Is that perhaps the date that that they  took up residence here????????

so  Jon, as it is , DECEMBER 15 is FOUR DAYS on my calendar.

[Quillan]

[quote user="POB"]OK, a friend of mine, and no it is not me, is in the throws of moving to France.  They, are desperate to be entirely legal.  They have been living in various Gites since September but finalised the purchase of their now permanent home here last Friday (15 December).  They have returned to England today 19th December for Christmas and to tidy up their affairs.  The car is currently on UK plates has a current UK road fund licence and is not old enough to require an MOT.   As a result of a number of trips to France visiting relatives (us) and searching for a property here they exhausted the 90 day allowance on their English motor insurance so have taken out French motor insurance and have had their headlamps replaced to suit French requirements.   Do I have to ring them up and tell them they are now uninsured now in England or early in January when they return home?  If so I will ring them immediately as they will wish to rectify the situation in any way they can.[/quote]

To repeat what I and others have said. If the car has UK plates it must meet the UK legal requirements to be driven anywhere in the world be it France, America or the UK. This is English law.

French law allows you to buy French insurance on a foreign plated/registered car and will cover you until such time as the policy time limit for registering your car in France runs out after which you won’t be covered.

The confusion for many is that there are two countries laws involved, English (where the car is currently registered) and French (where the car will be living) and they are slightly different.

So the way I read it is that under UK law what your friend has done is illegal as the car for as long as it has UK plates on it must have UK insurance. Under French law the car can have French insurance for a 4 week period during which time the car must be put on to French plates. Therefore if the car is driven in the UK with French insurance it is illegal as it has no UK insurance but it is legal for them to drive it in France on UK plates up till 4 weeks from the time they move in to their house.

I know others will now contradict me on the issue of when the time period starts from and ends but if you have no current proof as to when you officially moved here. I would suggest it should be considered to be from the date that they know you are here like for example when you bought the house because that is when the water, electricity, tax dehabitation etc will be registered in you name. It gives your friend a little leighway.

The other thing to note is there are UK insurance companies who will give unlimited EU insurance cover. I know this to be true as I had such a policy. Mine was through Landrover but the policy was actually with Sun Alliance. I did a quick search in google using Car Insurance Unlimited EU cover and found both Saga and Marks and Spencer offer this type of policy, I took 2 minutes to find them.

Personally now they are moving here full time I would advice them to take an unlimited UK policy, drive the car till within a month of its first MOT being due then take it back to the UK, sell it and buy a French car. There are certain conditions in France (or any other LHD drive company) where driving a RHD car can greatly increase the chance of you having a serious accident and I am not just talking of overtaking.

 

[Russethouse]

Surely they made their intention of staying in France clear, the day they purchased the French insurance ? Not a step a visitor would make surely ?

[Quillan]

In some ways you are rght but the truth is, as you can see in the post, their insurance period of 90 days outside of the UK ran out. For all we know they could only have had the insurance just 90 days total as well. I personally think they may have panicked, thought they were not insured back in the UK. They may also not have had access to the internet here in France to change their insurance, there are so many reasons. So to them perhaps it was easier to buy French insurance as they were here. They could of course, the car being fairly new, put it on French plates. In Carcassonne, if you 'walk' the documents round the 'circuit' yourself you can do it easy in one day, I know at least three people who have done this. In fact its true to say its taken longer to get the number plates rivited on.

 

[Bob T]

[quote user="Quillan"]

Personally now they are moving here full time I would advice them to take an unlimited UK policy, drive the car till within a month of its first MOT being due then take it back to the UK, sell it and buy a French car. There are certain conditions in France (or any other LHD drive company) where driving a RHD car can greatly increase the chance of you having a serious accident and I am not just talking of overtaking.

 [/quote]

But if they have now bought a house here and come here with the intention of living here they are classed as French resident from day one. I think that you will find that the unlimited UK policy is available to UK residents and not French residents. I am sure that people will argue the point to suit their circumstances, but the fact is that in the event of an accident they may not be covered. Perhaps they should be totally open with hte UK insurance company and tell them that they are French resident and not UK resident and then ask if that will make a difference. I am sure that the UK insurance comany will say in the small print that they are not covered.

[Will]

Just thinking out loud (or rather on the screen), and I am sure somebody will come up with a contrary view, but I am sure there is an EU directive that says a vehicle has to be insured in the country where it is normally kept - I think it's the same directive that says the vehicle must be registered in the country where it is kept. So putting two and two together, a vehicle has to be insured and registered in the same country. Although the French authorities allow a period of grace, probably in recognition of the fact that registering a foreign vehicle in France can be difficult and time consuming (and I say can - it isn't always, by any means), you can't, strictly speaking, have French insurance on a British car. And those who take up residence in France without re-registering and re-insuring their vehicles are also in breach of the directive.

[cooperlola]

We seem to have the same discussion on various threads - the details differ but the reason behind them is the same - people who wish to will cheat and behave illegally in any circumstances if they think they can get away with it, be it by driving a UK registered car here when it should be registered in France; driving with an illegally obtained driving license while banned; paying taxes in the UK when they should pay them here.  They are cheats but it seems impossible to get that point across to the kind of person who is determined to behave in this way.  Very frustrating for those of us who take the trouble to do these things correctly (my Landrover is sitting in my garden unused while I tear my hair out getting a certificate of conformity for the b***dy thing!)  What should we do - I'm increasingly of the mind that we should shop 'em but it's not in my nature really.  Perhaps it should be - might be better for my blood pressure!

[POB]

Thank you for all your comments but I must confess I am still confused although I must emphasise that they were trying to ensure thart they were acting legally.  Their english insurance had expired.  They intended to be resident in France, therefore, it seemed logical to insure their car in France.  Equally it seemed logical to wait on the completion of the purchase of their property to register the car at their permanent address.  If their French insurance is valid in the UK, as visitors, they surely cannot insure the car in the UK or they would have "double indemnity"   The Completion of the purchase was delayed and took place at 16:00 on Friday.  They were booked on a shuttle at around midnight last night so could not physically register the car prior to their departure.  I don't want to panic them.  In my simple mind they have valid French Insurance (they are within the one month of becoming French resident) that insurance entitles them to drive in other European countries so surely their French insurers would meet a claim they know the car has UK plates and to my knowledge the agents did not suggest that they could not return to the UK.

[Russethouse]

To my simple mind they showed their intention to become French resident when they took out the French insurance, how long ago was that ? If it was longer than 4 weeks then I can see that an insurance company may be inclined to fight any claim.

In any case they need to get this sorted pdq.

 

[Will]

Yes, if we can leave aside all the amateur lawyer stuff and think practically I believe your friends should be fine. The vehicle still has British tax, you say does not need an MoT, and is still registered in Britain (i.e. not exported) - the only dubious part of the equation is the French insurance (and possibly the headlights). So it will pass any number plate recognition text, will appear 100% legal to any traffic warden or similar jobsworth character, and as long as they do nothing to attract attention to themselves nobody will know any different - though perhaps if they have the green French insurance vignette displayed they should remove it temporarily.

You should advise them to be careful - if stopped for speeding or similar they will have to provide evidence of insurance. Although my own experience is that many UK policemen won't be 100% sure of the law, and a French insurance certificate along with an explanation that the vehicle is in the process of being re-registered in France will be accepted, there are always the more zealous law officers with whom this explanation won't wash. And should they be unfortunate enough to have an accident I feel sure that their French insurance will cover them for legal third-party risks, though insurers being what they are they could try to get out of paying for own damage.

So just go carefully, and as soon as they are back in France, get the tax document, sort out the European conformity documents, send off the export slip from the registration document (which could bring a refund of road tax), get the French registration - everything should be fine.