Please settle an argument !!

Sunday Driver · December 20, 2006

POB

From what you say, your friends became officially resident in France the day they signed for their new permanent home. They appear to acknowledge this by having started the import process for their car by getting French insurance cover and changing the headlamps.

The correct procedure would have been to notify the DVLA that they were permanently exporting the car and make an import VAT declaration through their French tax office. That would mean the car would no longer be UK registered, with the import VAT certificate acting as their temporary French import registration authorising them to drive the car on it's old UK plates whilst they complete the full registration process. Their French insurer will have issued cover on the basis that they had arranged this compulsory import registration because, as French residents, your friends can't legally drive the car here without it.

Having done all of this, they could have taken their "French" car back to the UK (on it's original number plates because they're now classed as French temporary import plates) and their French insurance would have been valid for their trip.

However, because of the short timescales here, I suspect that they haven't done this, so at the moment the car probably remains UK registered - which means that to comply with the Road Traffic Act (Section 143), they will require UK insurance.

That said, Will has outlined the practicalities of being challenged.....

Quillan · December 20, 2006

[quote user="Bob T"][quote user="Quillan"]

Personally now they are moving here full time I would advice them to take an unlimited UK policy, drive the car till within a month of its first MOT being due then take it back to the UK, sell it and buy a French car. There are certain conditions in France (or any other LHD drive company) where driving a RHD car can greatly increase the chance of you having a serious accident and I am not just talking of overtaking.

[/quote]

But if they have now bought a house here and come here with the intention of living here they are classed as French resident from day one. I think that you will find that the unlimited UK policy is available to UK residents and not French residents. I am sure that people will argue the point to suit their circumstances, but the fact is that in the event of an accident they may not be covered. Perhaps they should be totally open with hte UK insurance company and tell them that they are French resident and not UK resident and then ask if that will make a difference. I am sure that the UK insurance comany will say in the small print that they are not covered.

[/quote]

Buying a house in France does not make you a resident. You can however use it to prove residency if you wish. What we do know is that the intention of the posters friends is to live in France permanently but as to when exactly they decide to do this is up to them. Reading the post again it could be before New Year or after when they return.

They are in a bit of a pickle, want to do things properly, have made a small error and want a quick fix for the Christmas period after which they can then sort it properly, well that’s how I read it.

In my case I still had a house back in the UK and used International Post Forwarding to France. As far as I was concerned my car was UK based and neither myself, the DVLC or the insurance company had a problem with this. My car met all the requirement for a UK registered car (tax and insured in the UK). When it got to a point that I knew I would no longer be able to keep the cars status legal (it required its first MOT) in the UK I returned it to the UK and sold it. If the original posters friend is in a similar position it is something to consider.

If you can’t do this then why do UK insurance companies offer none restricted EU policies for English registered cars?

I bet a pound to a penny that many people come over to France and don’t understand the system and that many people who live here and are on this very forum have done something unknowingly illegal when they first came to France. Just look at those that live here and have Sky TV for a start.

I guess we can argue this all day but perhaps there is enough information in this thread to allow the original posters friend to decide what they want to do and what the current status of their car is.

Gyn_Paul · December 20, 2006

Quillan, - I know you

were only using it as ammo to make your argument, but it isn't actually illegal

(as in, a criminal offence) to have

Sky TV outside the UK; it is simply a matter of jurisdiction of copyright -

which is itself in breach of an EU ‘open borders’ directive. You are breaking

no actual law as far as I'm aware either here in France

(where it would be pertinent) or back in the

UK

(where it would not).

Strictly-speaking one

is operating outside the terms and conditions of the contract by continuing to

pay Sky for their services, when outside the UK, but I suspect that is all. A

civil matter rather than a criminal one. No-one is being defrauded.

p

Jonzjob · December 20, 2006

[quote user="Ron Avery"][quote user="Jonzjob"]

Sorry to contridict Ron, but Sept to now is a lot more than 4 weeks... Also as I said before, our insurance broker here said that if a car is on U.K. plates and MOT it MUST have U.K. insurance. SD also said the same thing a long while before me!!!

U.K. plates + French insurance = no, no...

[/quote]

"...........but finalised the purchase of their now permanent home here last Friday (15 December). Is that perhaps the date that that they took up residence here????????

so Jon, as it is , DECEMBER 15 is FOUR DAYS on my calendar.

[/quote]

I stand corrected Ron. I was looking at it from the perspective that they had been permanent from September, which they have really. But if they only declair it from the house purchase, then?

If that is the case we could start to look at things like what was their medical cover from September, E111 equivanent? If so then that was not what it is for, but that is another story completely!!

cooperlola · December 20, 2006

I like what this thread is called! Settle an argument tee-hee![:D]

POB · December 20, 2006

I have now rung them. They are staying overnight with my parents and I suspect as we speak my, retired Civil Servant, father is poring over his law books. They took their insurance out three weeks ago so the four weeks will be up prior to their return in early January. As pointed out though it highlights how easy it is to fall foul of the legislation no matter how hard you try. I know realise that when I arrived I must have been illegal as just prior to my MOT expiring I arranged my CT and took out French Insurance but only registered my car a few months later as soon as I completed the purchase of the house. Notifying the DVLA is a problem as you should send them your original registration document which you then need to produce at the Prefecture when you register here. This forum is excellant but you need to know the questions to ask and some of the legislative issues involved in moving country are too important to be left to this environment there should be more official assistance. When you consider the number of Brits relocating in France and Spain the potential for disaster befalling them and the people they come into contact with is terrifying even when you try desperately to comply. Thank you all.

fulcrum · December 20, 2006

Can anyone point to any court cases, in France, where unwitting expats have been fined, or worse, thrown in jail for not abiding by the strict letter of the law regarding vehicle registration.

Russethouse · December 20, 2006

Frankly I think injuring someone and then finding out you are not covered is a bigger concern. Is there anything like the MIB in France, for uninsured loss ?

Sunday Driver · December 20, 2006

To clarify John and Ron's debate, according to the French Public Service website:

The registration of a vehicle in a French department is binding on a foreign national only as from the moment when he makes his domicile there. Domicile for an individual is his place of principal residence such as defined in articles 102 to 111 of the civil code.

POB's friends were temporarily living in gites until their house purchase was completed, so up till then, they did not have a principal residence here.

Sunday Driver · December 20, 2006

[quote user="POB"]

Notifying the DVLA is a problem as you should send them your original registration document which you then need to produce at the Prefecture when you register here.

[/quote]

You no longer send your V5C to the DVLA - just the tear off export declaration slip.

[quote user="POB"]

This forum is excellant but you need to know the questions to ask and some of the legislative issues involved in moving country are too important to be left to this environment there should be more official assistance. When you consider the number of Brits relocating in France and Spain the potential for disaster befalling them and the people they come into contact with is terrifying even when you try desperately to comply. Thank you all.

[/quote]

The information is readily available from both official and unofficial sources - how do you think I know all this legal stuff....[;-)]

But you are right when you point out the difficulties for people moving here. But that's one of the hazards of moving to a foreign country which many people either struggle with (especially if they don't even understand the language) - or choose to ignore.

Russethouse · December 20, 2006

So just to clarify (sorry !) are these people 'legal' in either country, one, or both ?

If they are not legal in the UK can they do anything now to remedy the situation ?

I have already suggested, in the mods section, that we put together a list of 'things to do' before moving - I hope SD will contribute ?

Bugsy · December 20, 2006

[quote user="Russethouse"]

we put together a list of 'things to do' before moving -

[/quote]

Stop the milk..................................[:)]

Gyn_Paul · December 20, 2006

[quote user="Gary aka Bugbear"][quote user="Russethouse"]

we put together a list of 'things to do' before moving -

[/quote]

Stop the milk..................................[:)]

[/quote]

And the Sunday Papers ¬!

Nick Trollope · December 20, 2006

Sorry to do this, but;

[quote user="Quillan"]

To repeat what I and others have said. If the car has UK plates it must meet the UK legal requirements to be driven anywhere in the world be it France, America or the UK. This is English law.

[/quote]

UK law has no juridiction outside the UK, so the fact that UK (whole of UK is the same, not just England) law makes it illegal (in the UK) doesn't neccessarily make it illegal in France..

[quote user="Quillan"]

French law allows you to buy French insurance on a foreign plated/registered car and will cover you until such time as the policy time limit for registering your car in France runs out after which you won’t be covered..

[/quote]

The terms of the insurance are set by the insurance company (taking into account minimum standards required by law). Nowhere on any of my insurance policies (when they applied to UK-registered vehicles) was there a time limit for the validity of the insurance, that was less than the period I had paid for.

[quote user="Quillan"]

So the way I read it is that under UK law what your friend has done is illegal as the car for as long as it has UK plates on it must have UK insurance. Under French law the car can have French insurance for a 4 week period during which time the car must be put on to French plates. Therefore if the car is driven in the UK with French insurance it is illegal as it has no UK insurance but it is legal for them to drive it in France on UK plates up till 4 weeks from the time they move in to their house.

[/quote]

Again, I beg to differ. UK (and French) law states that a vehicle must have valid insurance to be used on the road (or under all circumstances in France). It does not mandate where that insurance must be issued. Of course, you cannot make a UK car legal (as in buying tax) without UK insurance, but that is down to the Post Office & the DVLA, not the insurers. IMHO, if you drive your UK registered (& taxed & MOT'd), but French-insured car in the UK, you are not breaking any laws. All French insurance certificates are multi-lingual - and valid anywhere in the EU (that is EU law).

[quote user="Quillan"]

The other thing to note is there are UK insurance companies who will give unlimited EU insurance cover. I know this to be true as I had such a policy. Mine was through Landrover but the policy was actually with Sun Alliance. I did a quick search in google using Car Insurance Unlimited EU cover and found both Saga and Marks and Spencer offer this type of policy, I took 2 minutes to find them.

[/quote]

Another trivial point, EU law requires all issuers of insurance in the EU, to give EU-wide cover. UK insurance co's are very good at hiding this fact (such as making the statutory insurance minimum legal). French insurers are more "honest" (in this respect, at least!).

As is so often the case in France, the practical issues are resolved slower than the law allows - I know of noone who has registered a vehicle via the SVA route within the 2 month limit - it just can't be done! It will usually take the DRIRE more than a month to come up with an attestation (around here, the norm is 6 weeks - according to their paperwork). What is more, the "system" still does not work - I am curently trying to register a vehicle (and have been for 9 months), but can't, because the DVLA cannot supply an export certificate, which my sous-prefecture says they must. etc etc.

I think that the OP's friends are basically wrong, but who the hell cares!?

Russethouse · December 21, 2006

>>I think that the OP's friends are basically wrong, but who the hell cares!?<<

If they don't have an accident before its sorted out, no one

If they do - everyone.......

Quillan · December 21, 2006

Don’t be sorry Nick, its not a problem.

I accept that UK law has no jurisdiction outside the UK. The only think I can say is that this is the attitude of the DVLC and is how the law stands in the UK. Posts in this thread and others in the past say that people who have phoned or written have had the exact same reply. How on earth you actually enforce this outside the UK is another issue.

I have to say I have not read all of my French policy (or more to the point the big book that came with the first one) and have not noticed if there really is a statement to that effect so I must assume you are correct and apologise for my error. One can only go on what many others have said so they stand corrected as well.

If what you say is correct about being insured in another EU country other than where the car was registered it would be interesting to see if there have been any court cases in the UK and what the outcome is. I also wonder how the UK traffic police would react. In fact I think I will try and find an email address and ask

I am afraid your general comment about French insurance policies being multilingual is defiantly incorrect, the only written words in English on my policy is “International Motor Insurance Card”, the rest of the document is all in French (happy to scan and post it if you want). The insurance only appears valid for 17 EU countries (so logic dictates that by adding France that makes 18 and there are 24 member states it can’t be true). It specifically mentions that it is not valid for Cyprus, Serbia (I wonder why!) and Montenegro. So it would seem that even the French break EU law then, but then that’s nothing new.

For your particular situation with your export certificate would it not be easier to ‘loose’ your logbook and apply for a new one then you will receive the new type with the certificate attached. Of course I appreciate that your own situation may have other issues involved which make it difficult.

Bob T · December 21, 2006

The point about UK insurance is correct in that it must offer minimum cover in the whole of the EU. But that is provided that you comply with the terms and conditions of the insurance company, ie your contract with them. If that contract says in the small print that you must be a UK resident, and you are not, then they will not pay out in the event of an accident. I am sure people will try and argue that they are UK resident or that they did not read the small print, but insurance companies are famous for fighting individuals in trying not to pay out a claim.

If you can afford to pay out hundreds of thousands of euros in a personal injury claim then take the risk. If you want to try and look at every little angle so that you can justify to yourself that you are legel then that is your problem.

I sold my car before I moved here and bought one when I got here thereby knowing that I am covered and legal. I will not be someone who risks my future and the reputation of the Brit community by breaking the rules and then trying to jusify it with weak reasons.

Sunday Driver · December 21, 2006

Some previous points of debate to be clarified:

The UK law mentioned by Quillan and others regarding the legality of cars being driven temporarily abroad is in compliance with EU Council Directive 83/182/EEC of 28 March 1983 on tax exemptions within the Community for certain means of transport temporarily imported into one Member State from another. This applies to France as well as every other EU state, so as Quillan rightly says, an untaxed/uninsured UK vehicle would indeed be illegal in France.

Nick is right when he says insurance certificates don’t specify a time limit for registration, just as they don’t specify that the tyres should have tread on them or that all the lights must work. Provision of cover is on the basis that a vehicle will be lawful in all respects, including having a valid carte grise. The V5C is a valid carte grise for obtaining initial cover - but only until it expires. After that, the car doesn’t have a valid carte grise and therefore it would be an offence to drive it.

The UK does mandate where insurance has to be issued. For UK registered vehicles, the Road Traffic Act 1948 (Section 143) states you may not drive a vehicle on the road without it being covered by valid insurance against third party risks. If a person acts in contravention of this, then he is guilty of an offence. The Act goes on to state that the policy must have been issued by an authorised UK insurer. The DVLA’s insistence on UK insurance for relicensing purposes merely reflects this legal position.

Note: There are changes being introduced to simplify the provision of EU cross border insurance cover, so this situation may not endure for much longer and people should then be free to exploit the free market concept and buy continental insurance cover for their UK cars.

With regard to current foreign cover, EU law requires all issuers of insurance in the EU, to give EU-wide cover but only for minimum third party risk. This is clearly pointed out in your UK policy. Insurers will normally extend the comprehensive cover on your own vehicle for a fee. The legality of this additional charging practice has been previously questioned through the EU Commission, but has been deemed lawful as insurers retain the right to base their premiums on their own estimate of risk.

Finally a small point – the practical issues of people not being able to register their vehicle via the SVA route within a two month limit were foreseen by the French Ministry of Transport when they specified the actual timescale as being four months…..[;-)]

Oh, and the system does work – it just requires you to produce a simple document. It’s just that the DVLA aren’t playing ball with you, Nick.

Quillan · December 21, 2006

I did a search for a phone number and all I could get was New Scotland Yard (0207 230 1212) who put me through to the traffic division at Marylebone and this is the question I asked.

I have just moved to France. I have a car which is on UK plates and is currently taxed and MOTed but the insurance has run out. I have bought French car insurance as part of my preparation for registering the car in France. I want to visit my family back in the UK over Christmas. If I get stopped for any reason how do I stand legally? If this is illegal can you please tell me what offence I would be prosecuted for and part of the Road Traffic act I would be breaching. I also pointed out that the certificate was written only in French.

(Think that just about covers it)

This was their reply.

If the insurance certificate covers the vehicle for driving in the UK then it is perfectly legal but you would be advised to bring an English translation of the document with you.

So there you go, in my own mind I was dead certain it would not be legal but according to them there is no problem providing your certificate shows that your insurance covers you within the UK.

So for my part I apologise as it would appear I was totally wrong.

Renaud · December 21, 2006

It is a triumph for the fonctionaires both in France and the UK that this question has involved most of the brightest bods on the forum to the extent that it gets this thread onto the fifth page.

Bien fait mes amis!

Quillan · December 21, 2006

Yes they are the same. I asked for the persons name in case there was a problem and they could be contacted over the issue, "you don't need that because theres no offence" was their reply. Funny I get the same answer in France as well.

POB · December 21, 2006

Thank you Quillan, for all the effort you have gone through. That is very interesting.

Quillan · December 21, 2006

Further to my previous post. I have done a search and found this http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880052_en_7.htm#mdiv143

What in my mind it says is that you must have an insurance policy for the car or driver that gives a minimum of 3rd party insurance within the UK. There is no mention of where the certificate has to be issued (country wise) although it must be from an approved issuer by that I believe them to mean an insurance company or agent authorised to issue certificates on their behalf. If I we the friend of the original poster I would print this out, get a translation of the policy (probably by scanning it and using an electronic translator) and take it with me just to be on the safe side.

Just as a disclaimer this is my interpretation and it may not be correct but then linked to the information given to me by the police as in my previous post I rather suspect it may be true. I would also make doubly sure that the French insurance company agrees that I have insurance within the UK, just to be on the safe side.

ADDED - The rest of the car must be UK legal if it has UK plates i.e. valid tax disk and English MOT if applicable.

Chancer · December 21, 2006

I read all these debates like "if your car is not properly registered, licensed, tested etc etc then your insurance is invalid/they won't pay out/you will have to pay millions if you hit someone........ with great interest.

It is my belief (and I will explain why further on) that all insurance companies will always pay out to third parties without questioning the insured's circumstances. I am also certain that they can and will do anything in their power to refuse to pay out the insured's losses.

The following is a true story, it concerns a friend and ex-neighbour who now rents my home in England.

He is (was) a taxi driver, whilst travelling to a pick up early one morning he was T- boned by a ute (pick up truck) which ran a red light whilst being chased by the Police. He was seriously injured, hospitalised for 6 weeks, could not walk or drive for nearly one year afterwards.

The ute had been stolen by "travellers" and used to steal the pay machine at the local railway station, the Police were in hot pursuit at the time of the accident which was 100% not my friends fault as he was driving through the green light.

One of the travellers was killed in the accident, the injured driver, despite being cut from the wreckage by the emergency services denied having even been in the vehicle right up to and including at his trial, other members of the deceased's family/community entered the hospital ward and attempted to kill my friend as they considered him to blame. The Police had to post a guard at the hospital and at his house after he was discharged, he continued to recieve death threats as he was called as a witness at the drivers trial.

The other loser was the owner of the ute, a landscape gardener who had to replace his vehicle (he was third party insured) and most of the tools that were damaged or went missing from the salvage yard.

My friend and his family suffered serious financial difficulties while he was unable to work culminating in them having to sell their house (and now renting mine) so he pursued a claim for uninsured losses through his insurers solicitors.

He was told that he had two choices: sue the Police for negligence or the insurers of the ute. He was naturally unhappy to do either as he could not hold either to blame, and was incredulous to learn that either could be held liable.

He chose the lesser of the two evils and the solicitors requested the insurance details from the landscape gardener (who was in bed at the time of the accident), he initially refused to give them as he was now facing losing his no claims bonus through no fault of his own.

A legal document was eventually served on him in person and after several years of wrangling the insurers of the ute paid out a very significant sum of compensation for loss of earnings and damages to my friend.

It is rumoured that the now convicted driver has already lodged a claim of negligence against the Police from prison (presumably he now admits to being the injured driver) and no doubt their insurers will settle out of court (ironic smilie).

Russethouse · December 21, 2006

[quote user="J.R."]

I read all these debates like "if your car is not properly registered, licensed, tested etc etc then your insurance is invalid/they won't pay out/you will have to pay millions if you hit someone........ with great interest.

It is my belief (and I will explain why further on) that all insurance companies will always pay out to third parties without questioning the insureds circumstances. I am also certain that they can and will do anything in their power to refuse to pay out the insureds losses.