Painting the ceiling

[Araucaria]

We've been splashing the white emulsion onto the ceiling in the main room in the farmhouse. It has an old wood-burning stove, but previously there was an open fire in a "cantou" fireplace. The ceiling is pine boards - effectively the attic floor - supported on big oak joists which are stained/dyed/painted almost black. The white emulsion may not be an ideal finish but the room is very dark as it faces NW and the window isn't very big. We're leaving the joists black.

I am beginning to think the ceiling has been impregnated by 60 or 70 years of smoke from the fire, as directly the paint goes on, dark brown stains appear through it. Even after a couple of coats it's still much the same.

Can anyone suggest a sealant of some kind to paint on first (well, not first now, obviously it would need to go on over the discoloured emulsion) to stop the smoky/tarry residues in the wood from seeping through into the paint?

[connolls]

Hi,

Had the same with our ceilings..............pain in the A"^E !!!!

Tried all sorts of things (brands of stain sealer on the market) all to no avail.

Eventually went back to my old dad's remedy. A thin layer of gloss paint. (Of course it works because it's oil based)

We used the cheapest own brand on the market from Bricomarche. We then just painted it with the usual 10 coats of french emulsion !!!

It works really well and can then just be painted as normal with emulsion when required and no more stains.

Hope this is of some use.

Best wishes Mel

[Gardengirl]

We've used something called stain blocker on stained walls in UK. It worked very well, and took only a couple of coats of emulsion to for the marks to totally disappear; they've never reappeared.

[BIG MAC]

Zinser is what we specify for use in fire damaged houses after cleaning and before decoration.

[Théière]

I'm with BigMac Zinser! the best by a country mile (kilometre)

[Dog]

Looks an interesting range of products where can you buy them and at what price?

[Araucaria]

I'm with Dog on this - sounds wonderful - but who sells it?

[Théière]

Flippin eck, what do you want me to come and paint for you too? [:D]

http://www.zinsser.com/International/france.html

[Russethouse]

Were the previous owners smokers ? We had the same situation regarding painting when we bought the house of a heavy smoker - we used a paint with an anti fungal ingredient...sorry can't remember the name....

[Théière]

Wash down with sugar soap, prior to painting

[Araucaria]

It's a very kind offer, Theiere, but it's a bit far for you to come.

I did open the link, and tried looking for a some kind of a list of distributors, or even an on-line shop, but I couldn't find one.

[DerekJ]

I've used standard Brilliant White Undercoat do do a similar (though not so extreme) covering job.  Worked fine.

[Théière]

[quote user="Araucaria"]It's a very kind offer, Theiere, but it's a bit far for you to come.

I did open the link, and tried looking for a some kind of a list of distributors, or even an on-line shop, but I couldn't find one.
[/quote]

Well a phone call or email to the distributor shown on that page should answer all your questions

Daniel Cormenier, Vice President

Rust-Oleum/France S. A.

11 rue Jules Verne

St. Leu, France

Tel: +33 1 30 40 0044

Fax: +33 1 30 40 9980

Email: [email protected]

Or you could just try white undercoat which works fine (apparently) [blink]

[chirpy]

WHEN I WAS A LAD IN THE PAINT LABORATORY BACK IN 1953,WET BEHIND THE EARS...ETC. WE HAD TO MAKE PAINT FOR ALL THE PUBS. CEILINGS,[B]

Sorry I am shouting...deaf now ....we had a paint called "NICOTINE SEALER"

it would from memory have been an oil /phenolic based paint.[geek]..a bit technical for some readers but if you went online Perhaps still made or equivalents.

My original paint company was British paints ,now owned by Bergers...so try them .

One tip if you have a black ceiling and you believe underneath there is an original paint..very old..then most likely a distemper...and these are notorious to paint with modern emulsion paints....it will just peel off...maybe a good idea to try and it will bring off the layers of soot etc.No do not do that .!If you suspect any distemper,then it will have to be removed with elbow grease...no that is not a commercial product...although all new staff were sent to my factory with an empyt tin and asked to check on all floors and fill it up to the top.

It gave a good laugh to the workers sending all the young ,  white coated ,chemists from floor to floor.[:P][geek]

 

[Chippiepat]

surprised no-ones mentioned it,(but don't know if it would work either) but I would have a try with diluted uni-bond (pva)

[cooperlola]

Acrylic primer.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Araucaria"]We've been splashing the white emulsion onto the ceiling in the main room in the farmhouse. It has an old wood-burning stove, but previously there was an open fire in a "cantou" fireplace. The ceiling is pine boards - effectively the attic floor - supported on big oak joists which are stained/dyed/painted almost black. The white emulsion may not be an ideal finish but the room is very dark as it faces NW and the window isn't very big. We're leaving the joists black.

I am beginning to think the ceiling has been impregnated by 60 or 70 years of smoke from the fire, as directly the paint goes on, dark brown stains appear through it. Even after a couple of coats it's still much the same.

Can anyone suggest a sealant of some kind to paint on first (well, not first now, obviously it would need to go on over the discoloured emulsion) to stop the smoky/tarry residues in the wood from seeping through into the paint?
[/quote]

It may well be timber treatment used to treat the boards in the loft.

Staining normally occurs because the top layer of new paint is reacting with whatever is underneath.

Now the hardest thing was always to paint cellulose lacquer on top of synthetic paint: such as Coach Paint.

Hours after spraying, the surface would "Pickle": and craze all over: this was because the fresh cellulose re-activated the old paint beneath and i n re-drying, it dried at different rates and "pulled" on the top coats.

It could be sealed by spraying over the synthetic paint before re-finishing, with a coat of Shellac Varnish Sealer.

Shellac would seem to be the main constituent of the wonder sealer, Zinser, earlier mentioned. Shellac varnish (Dissolved in meths) was always used as masonry sealer years ago: mainly since it is impervious to water and most other liquids.

Shellac Varnish will stop most other reagents and drying oils from older treatments and stains, leaching through, all provided the surface is not friable.

Another very old sealer and base for new coats was of course, glue size. Hot mixed in water.

http://www.decoratingwarehouse.co.uk/catalogue.php?productid=192

Still used for sealing new artist's canvas but a very useful natural and neglected decorator's weapon.

Some 30 years ago we bought a lovely house, previously owned by a retired naval officer: only problem was on walking in it was like Pompey!

Ceilings were painted gloss cream: walls gloss light green: and everything sealed with a heavy coat of varnish!

Durable yes: attractive nope.

Manger's Sugar Soap, Glue Size and various other things came to my rescue!

 

[Araucaria]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. All very helpful.

Gluestick - one thing that can't be causing the problem is any form of timber treatment. None of the wood in the house had been treated when we bought it, so all the softwood was absolutely full of woodworm. And this particular floor/ceiling is pine.

We treated the ceiling's upper surface (the attic floor) with xylophene a year or two ago, but xylophene doesn't produce this effect when you paint over it. I am fairly sure it's just the effect of smoke from the open fire. Particularly as it is much worse on the areas closest to the fireplace.

[Ejc]

Have you thought about boarding between the joists - even putting some insulation in as well? That would solve the paint issue, give you a better surface to paint on and improve insulation as well?

 

Good Luck