think i've found a good link to help fill out the tax forms!

[squidge]

just picked up our first lot of forms yesterday. hoped it would be quite simple as only declaring a bit of uk bank account interest. got confused after 3 seconds of looking. i'll be asking stupid questions over the next couple of days, but i've randomly come across this :

http://www.annett-consultancy.com/article_filling_in_your_French_tax_form.html#fiscalresident

which is really really good i think! (although it does talk about 'net' income figures..... when i thought you put gross?)

squidge x

 

 

[gosub]

[quote user="squidge"]

just picked up our first lot of forms yesterday. hoped it would be quite simple as only declaring a bit of uk bank account interest. got confused after 3 seconds of looking. i'll be asking stupid questions over the next couple of days, but i've randomly come across this :

http://www.annett-consultancy.com/article_filling_in_your_French_tax_form.html#fiscalresident

which is really really good i think! (although it does talk about 'net' income figures..... when i thought you put gross?)

squidge x

 

 

[/quote]

I don't know about your link but to fill out your tax forms, all you need to do is look at he French Tax FAQ'S they will answer all your questions.

[Jay]

[quote user="squidge"]

just picked up our first lot of forms yesterday. hoped it would be quite simple as only declaring a bit of uk bank account interest. got confused after 3 seconds of looking. i'll be asking stupid questions over the next couple of days, but i've randomly come across this :

http://www.annett-consultancy.com/article_filling_in_your_French_tax_form.html#fiscalresident

[/quote]

Excellent site - good find!

[suein56]

[quote user="squidge"]

http://www.annett-consultancy.com/article_filling_in_your_French_tax_form.html#fiscalresident

which is really really good i think! (although it does talk about 'net' income figures..... when i thought you put gross?) [/quote]

The site is a good find; and it does go on to explain how to fill in the columns re gross and net in the blurb.

Sue

[Jackie]

Most interesting and thanks for posting the link. I notice that it implies that annuities should be added to other pensions and not entered separately which is what we used to do until doubts were raised by others. I also notice that Govt pensions gross rather than net should be entered in box TI. When we used an accountant here in France he indicated that annuities should be added to pensions and that TI should have the Net and not gross figure for a govt pension taxed in the UK. Perhaps someone would like to comment? .................J

[Ron Avery]

What is actually required is as detailed in the FAQs on here.  If you want to do as another websites says for certain issues that is entirely up to you.  We all have our own opinions of some of the advice from the so called French finance experts....... however gross is correct for Government pensions.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Jackie"]Most interesting and thanks for posting the link. I notice that it implies that annuities should be added to other pensions and not entered separately which is what we used to do until doubts were raised by others. .................J[/quote]

Strangely enough we were told to put a small annuity Mrs Benjamin has in with her other pensions by the smiling angel in our Impôts office. I've kept the note she made at the time in case anything is ever queried.

I've either read/heard/dreamed somewhere that UK annuities are different to French ones which is why they shouldn't be entered in AW/BW/CW or DW but I have no reference point for this which is why I've previously kept my head down on this one.  [:)]

[Jackie]

Thanks for confirming that last point Ron and both the accountants we used did what your impot lady said Benjamin so maybe they were right! (But see posts on page 2)...................J

[BobDee]

Thats a pretty important point re annuity declaration. In my case it would make several hundred euros difference in tax payable. Someone must have the "official" answer.

All the tax forms are sitting here ready to be posted tomoorow. But if I can save some money, the printer will soon be busy again!

BobD

[Benjamin]

BobDee

There is an Impôts email address somewhere on the forum who will answer in English (not querying your ability to correspond in French but as the word for annuity in French is rente/rente viagère it may be easier to get an explanation in English). If you can't find the email, Ron, who I believe knows it, will be along shortly.  [:D]

[Cat]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

The lady's name is Francine Riboulet Contrôleur des Impôts and her E mail address is [email protected]

[/quote]

Beat you to it Ron [:)]

[FairyNuff]

Re: e-mail address for tax queries

We visited our local tax office yesterday, the helpful lady there gave us the address for English language tax queries in the Indre as:

[email protected]

perhaps there  is a similar address for each department?

FairyNuff [:)]

[BobDee]

Many thanks both. Email re Annuity and,  for fun, confirmation of correct exchange rate, has been sent.

Result will be posted here.

BobD

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Cat"]

Beat you to it Ron [:)]

[/quote]

Age takes it's toll in everything eventually Cat.  [6]

[Jackie]

Hi again. Having had a good look at the Red 2047 form it clearly says in VII Total à reporter Ligne 8 TI de la Déclaration de Revenus (Total Col. 4 -(Total Col. 5 + Total Col. 6) Which is the gross Govt pension minus the tax paid in the UK. In other words the NET Teachers or whatever pension in TI on 2042. 

On the subject of annuities if you use the tax calculator where the ratio of pension to annuity is large I found that you pay about the same either way. i.e. more CRDS and less income tax or vice versa. See recent post about annuities.

I read the other day in French News that Madame Francine Riboulet Contrôleur des Impôts has retired but that they still hope to help folk in English. ..........J

[BobDee]

OFFICIAL RESPONSE

Amazingly fast response to my Email to [email protected] in which I said:

Your help please,
 
I am married and we are both over 65 years of age.
 
I have a small UK annuity, about €5000 per annum.
Should I add the gross value to the Pensions figure in AS on the 2042 or should it be declared in the CW box?
 
Also can you give me the correct Euro/Pound exchange rate please for 2007.
 
Thank you

REPLY
The exchange rate for the fiscal year 2007 is :
1euro = 0,73335 pound
1 pound = 1,3636   euro

You have to complete box 1 AS but not CW

I  hope the above information will help you.
Pierre Vergne inspecteur départemental des Impôts

So Exchange rate is 1.3636 and annuities are added to pension figure in AS/BS.

Jackie, if you and yours are both over retirement age, virtually no tax is payable on pensions, according to the impots calculator, so adding Annuities to the pensions figure is quite a saving for many.

 

[Benjamin]

This is the relevant section in the Tax FAQ sticky-

Q         What about pensions based on an annuity - is this going to be a problem?

A         No - they just have to be entered

differently..   Enter the gross amounts on form 2047 section I. RENTES

VIAGERS DE TITRE ONEREUX then transfer them across to the 2042 and into

box AW, BW, CW or DW dependent on your age when the annuities were

taken out.  The social charges are calculated directly from this, so no

need for any additional entry on forms 2047 or 2042.

That's it for annuity based pensions.

Based on BobGee's reply, will this now need a correction?

[Jackie]

BobDee well Jackie is but John not until next year. However we are both on E121 as from June 30th last year. John is now Jackie's dependant as far as health cover goes. I have declared pensions total up to June 30th in Box TL for CRDS. John's annuity was paid after this date whereas Jackie's was paid in May so it will be interesting to see if they get it right at the tax office. Complete failure to look at 2047 by tax office last year and they tried to ignore any tax paid on Govt pension in the UK. Got most of it back after a little struggle. I must say that I am not optimistic but we live in hope. Each office does seem to be a law unto itself hence the variety of opinions you see on sites like this. Thanks for posting the reply from the tax office, a great help as are the Tax FAQS, no doubt evolution will take place......................J

[AnOther]

Thanks for the link, a good find.

Not knocking the FAQ but AFIAC all information, from whatever source, is very welcome [;-)]

 

[Ron Avery]

[quote user="Cat"]

[quote user="Ron Avery"]

The lady's name is Francine Riboulet Contrôleur des Impôts and her E mail address is [email protected]

[/quote]

Beat you to it Ron [:)]

[/quote]

I have been advised that Mme Riboulet has retired, so not sure if English language questions are being answered still although from above post it looks like they might be, but messages should no longer be addressed to Mme Riboulet.

[Sunday Driver]

The original information provided in the FAQ concerning the treatment of annuities is correct.

Whilst company pension schemes based on annuities are classed as pensions, individual free standing annuities such that those taken out with insurance companies where you are the sole contributor are classed as rentes viageres.

The tax treatment of these rentes is set out in the code général des impots Art 158 section 6.

Guidance for recognising income as rentes is set out under [url=http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F3173.xhtml]Imposition des rentes viageres[/url] on the official Service-Public website.

For those unable to read French, this article entitled [url=http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-legal/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=18970]Will your British pension be taxed in France?[/url] summarises the position regarding the tax treatment of annuities.

Care should be taken when making local enquiries which mention pensions as misunderstandings can occur in the French perception of the various definitions - think of the typical confusion over 'state' and 'government' pensions)..

 

 

[BobDee]

SD,

Looks like yet another very grey area.

In my case my annuity was purchased with the income from various pension schemes that I had contributed to over the years whilst self employed. and that to me, says it is employment related. So I have added it to my overall pensions figure.

The modified FAQ's seem to add more confusion to the annuity issue. I think a complete re-write of the annuity section might be in order quoting the information you linked to in your last posting.

BobD

[Sunday Driver]

Bob

I don't follow your reference to 'yet another gray area'.

Please be assured that the FAQ was carefully compiled by reference to the necessary tax legislation rather than unofficial internet sources, so whilst there may be scope for refining some of the wording, the underlying principles are believed to be correct.

I have asked Clair to re-revise the FAQ section to remove the latest incorrect amendment based on your earlier tax office response and to include a short definition explaining the distinction between employment pension based annuities and individual contributory annuities.

 

[Albert the InfoGipsy]

Just when I thought I had things sussed! Please bear with me in this post. I'm really trying to understand, honest!

So a pension from a personal pension fund, where I fork over £X per month from my salary is treated differently from a fund created by an employer paying in the money?

Both of these are treated differently from UK state pension?

Where does a fund created by 'opting out' stand?

How about a fund that originates from working for London Transport (when it was owned by the Greater London Council -- does that make it a 'Government' pension?) but then got transferred to a personal pension fund with the Pru, so will be used to buy an annuity? 

I currently plan to retire to France some time in the next 5 years. For my last few years of being employed by my own Ltd company will I be better off, from a French tax point of view, paying my own pension contributions or setting up a company funded scheme? Or should I just shove everything I can into ordinary savings? For this last one I'm ignoring the UK tax implications at the contribution stage -- I can work them out separately.

 

[AnOther]

The phraseology 'employment pension based annuities' and 'individual contributory annuities' I find slightly confusing too.

As far as I am aware for employees there are 3 basic types of pension.

1. Defined Benefits: a pension from an employer based on ones final salary. The Holy Grail and rapidly becoming extinct, and I don't understand where the term 'annuity' fits into this type of scheme.
2. Defined Contributions: otherwise known as a Money Purchase Plan, where a pot is accrued through employee contributions, (with or without a company contribution), with which one ultimately purchases an annuity.
3. Private Pension: where one contributes to a plan with a provider totally outwith and unconnected to ones employment. A contracted out SERPS plan would fall into this category.

Essentially these 3 actually boil down to two. With Defined Benefits your ex employer is, in effect, paying you a salary whilst retired. Other than in notional terms for potential tax purposes (lifetime 'pot' - I wish !) you do not have a 'pot' of money.

The other 2 types depend entirely on voluntary contributions, whether within an employers operated scheme or in the open market, and with these at the end of the day you buy an annuity, or annuities.

Within this context then the terms 'employment pension based annuities' and 'individual contributory annuities' are virtually synonomous are they not ?

As I say, this is pertaining to employees, and I know little of the rules for monies accrued in the course of self employment.