Making an initial Offer - is a notaire needed at this stage

[Edel]

Hi - we are considering putting an offer on a house in France (finally :)). The agent we are dealing with does not speak English and I have just basic conversational French (we’ve been to the house a few times and I’ve managed OK thus far but I wouldn’t be comfortable going through the next steps in French)

I was wondering can we make our offer in writing by email to the agent to see if the buyer would be in agreement with the amount we're offering  without it being viewed as a legal document (if the offer is accepted, we would engage a notaire to include clauses for the Compromis de Vente but I'm just wondering if it's possible to  negotiate/agree the price initially ourselves before getting a notaire involved)?

Many thanks

 

[menthe]

In my day, the agent could get your offer accepted or rejected by the buyer.  And only then is the notaire involved in drawing up the compromis.

Don't know the present rules and whether that is changed but hang on in there, someone will be in the know and hopefully will read your post.

[DaveLister]

My understanding is that any 'offer' can be considered legally binding.

Here's a translation from a French estate agency.

Now that you've found your ideal home, it's time to make an offer to purchase! This is a document that commits you to the purchase of the seller's property. It must therefore be drawn up in accordance with certain rules. Here are the essential points to bear in mind:

    The price at which you propose to buy the property from the seller.
    The period of validity of the offer, which is generally 5 to 10 days, corresponding to the time you give the seller to accept or refuse the offer.
    How the seller should respond, i.e. by registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt, or by bailiff.
    Your own withdrawal period, which by default is 10 working days.
    The financing of the property purchase (loan and/or down payment).
    You should mention that the sale will not be final until the preliminary contract has been signed.
    You should indicate that the offer to purchase will be cancelled if it has not been accepted by the seller within the specified time frame.
    You can also indicate the type of property involved and describe it (surface area, number of rooms, etc.).

Warning: remember to include suspensive clauses so that you can withdraw from the sale if something unforeseen occurs beyond your withdrawal period (such as a poor assessment of the property's condition, for example).

Remember also that suspensive clauses have to be agreed by both parties, you can't just include them at a later date into the Compromis.

 

[Lori]

Our latest experience in Dec. 2022 was that the offer had to be in writing (on paper, not email) and signed by the agent and prospective buyer before submitting it to the seller or his/her agent. 

If you don't read/speak French, I would ask someone to accompany you through this who does.  Your agent will likely do their best, but you really need to understand every word of every document - and they are plentiful.  The diagnostics can be 100 pages long and are very very important.

Things can vary from department to department and in many departments (such as where we live) appointments with Notaires can have long delays.  That is what delayed our purchase to be 3 months (cash sale).  Notaires round here were overloaded.  We could have closed in as little as 30 days as it was a cash sale, but the Notaire's office took a long time to process and the required documentation.

Good luck to you.

[ssomon]

You can use any Notaire you wish. Not necessarily one local to the house you're buying.

 

[menthe]

1 hour ago, Lori said:

Our latest experience in Dec. 2022 was that the offer had to be in writing (on paper, not email) and signed by the agent and prospective buyer before submitting it to the seller or his/her agent. 

If you don't read/speak French, I would ask someone to accompany you through this who does.  Your agent will likely do their best, but you really need to understand every word of every document - and they are plentiful.  The diagnostics can be 100 pages long and are very very important.

Things can vary from department to department and in many departments (such as where we live) appointments with Notaires can have long delays.  That is what delayed our purchase to be 3 months (cash sale).  Notaires round here were overloaded.  We could have closed in as little as 30 days as it was a cash sale, but the Notaire's office took a long time to process and the required documentation.

Good luck to you.

Lori, it's good to have your recent experience described.  I suppose it could depend on the agent's input.  The ones I met seemed to be able to negotiate with both parties and agree a mutually acceptable price and then get the compromis done.  You were able to say that there would be clauses suspensives and then these were written down in the compromis.

As you say, practices do vary and local conditions are always going to have to be met.

I sold our last house myself and I had agreed everything informally with the buyers and then I made an appointment for us both with the notaire nearest to where we lived (which wasn't near the house being sold).

I see now that the procedure is somewhat different which is no bad thing.  Stops timewasters and makes people reflect carefully before commitment.

[Edel]

Hi all - thanks a mill for the info and advice.   It does seem like we'd need to get a notaire involved at this early stage.    Our offer would be below the asking price so I reckoned there could be some to-ing and fro-ing and if it was too low for the seller we would just have left the offer on the table / bowed out of the process.   I'd hoped to avoid the extra organising/discussions/costs involved with engaging a notaire if the buyer thinks our ultimate offer is too low.   We've bought/sold several houses in Ireland and then one in Spain and it's always been just a verbal non-binding offer to see if the buyer is willing to accept, a bit of to and fro, acceptance and then the legal/contractual stuff follows .....I guess this is my introduction to the beloved bureaucracy en France 🙂   Many thanks for the guidance and it really helps to clear things for me.  Much appreciated 🙂

[menthe]

Edel, is there an agent?  Could you not ask them to informally sound the seller out about price?  Can't you just say, you'd like a rough guide as to acceptability before going ahead engaging a notaire and all the rest of it?

Personally, I don't think it's a lot to ask of an agent, considering the level of their fees.

[Edel]

Hi Menthe - that makes sense and you're right - the agents fees aren't tiny and we have to pay them.  Maybe I was getting t0o worked up about my lack of language skills to do this but it would save a lot of work (I'm feeling a bit stressed about having to do all the notaire stuff when we don't even know if our max offer could be accepted :))   so I guess just chatting and making sure the agent realises it's an informal check to see if it might be accepted would be a good way to go.    Fingers crossed 🙂 

[DaveLister]

Menthe is right.

The Notaire isn't going to want to draw up a compromis until the final price has been agreed.

If you are paying the agents fees then they are working for you. Use them to sound out your offer with the owner without making it formal. Something like ' I believe the property is worth more like xxxxx'. Remember the agents fee's are normally a % of the selling price so they won't be keen to go too low. However, that's their problem not yours. I do advise you to get as much information about the property as you can before placing an offer. Again use the agent. It's their job.

FWIW my last 'property' purchase was some land 10 years ago. The 'price haggling' was all done in the agents office with the owner on the phone. Only then was an official offer made and accepted.

[Lori]

In our last purchase in France, the Notaire was not involved until the the agent (who was representing the seller and in this case the seller was paying the agency fees) had prepared the written offer (which was a good bit less than the asking price) and submitted it to the seller.  Our first offer was accepted by the seller.  A compromis was then prepared, signed and an appointment for 3 months out was taken at the local Notaire's office.  We had to pay a portion of the Notaire's fees about two or three weeks after the appointment was taken.  The remainder was paid the day we signed the Acte de Vente.

The agent preferred to give the seller a written / signed offer as opposed to verbal conversation as it was seen as much m ore serious.  There was a second couple very interested in the house and had made a third visit the day we were preparing our offer.  We really wanted the house, so put in the written offer and it was accepted the same day.

 

[Edel]

Thanks a mill - that sounds more like what I was thinking and has put my mind at ease.  Really appreciate the info.  Many thanks 🙂

[DaveLister]

If you do agree a price remember you don't have to use the sellers Notaire.

Here's the official website for finding an English speaking Notaire in the area.

https://www.notaires.fr/en/directory

There's also lots of generic information on property purchases and succession rules.

[menthe]

Ref Lori's post.  It may be the seller paying the fees (on paper), as many adverts proclaim but in effect it's always the BUYER who pays.  This is because only one party is paying in money and that would be the buyer.

It's also the case that sometimes the agent agrees with the seller to take a lower fee in order to have the sale go ahead.  While the agent would like the full fee, it's also reality that when a property sticks on the market, they get nothing.  In times of buyers' market, the agent often agrees a lower fee to enable the sale to go ahead.

The seller still gets the price they want, the agent gets their fee (albeit a bit less than they'd like) and the buyer gets the property because after all it is always the buyer who coughs ALL of the money;

[alittlebitfrench]

22 hours ago, Edel said:

Hi - we are considering putting an offer on a house in France (finally :)).

 

Whatever you choose to offer make sure it is at the market price.

Whatever the price it is being advertised at is not its market price. I can guarantee you that.

The French housing market is on its knees….go play with the offer you make.

Edited March 14 by alittlebitfrench

[Edel]

Thanks Ablf - that's good to know.  We'll go in a good bit below - fingers crossed.  Thanks for that 🙂

[Edel]

Thanks a million everyone for your info and advice.  It really helps in how to proceed.  Fingers crossed things will go well and hopefully looking forward to a new abode in France (and in anticipation of all the bureaucracy but c'est la vie :)).  Many thanks

[menthe]

Good show, Edel!  And don't worry about the bureaucracy too much. 

It's one of those things, if you say France people think bureacracy!  In fact, it's no worse and often even better than in the UK.  I say this rather sourly because I have been dealing with UK bureacracy for months now;

[cajal]

On 13/03/2024 at 14:24, Edel said:

I'm just wondering if it's possible to negotiate/agree the price initially ourselves before getting a notaire involved)?

Last Wednesday we signed an Acte de Vente for an appartment we intend to downsize too in the next couple of years.

We originally made a verbal offer to the agent which was rejected and the sellers propsed a higher offer price which we rejected. The following day the agent accepted our original offer on behalf of the sellers and requested the offer to be made in writing. We declined the request to use the sellers notaire.

This is an edited copy of the offer we made via email.

Objet: offre d’achat au prix concernant un bien immobilier situé à Résidence.... Full address.

Madame, Monsieur,

Nous souhaitons faire une offre d'achat pour Résidence ....Full address

Les acquéreurs:

Monsieur Full name, résidant à Full address, né Date andPlace of birth.

Madame Full name, résidant à Full address, née Date and Place of birth.

s’engagent à acheter le bien immobilier dont les caractéristiques sont les suivantes :

Appartement (avec terrace,garage et cellier)

Full address

 

xxx m², type x

Notre offre d’achat s’élève au prix de €xxxxxxx, offre text euros . Conformément à l’article 1583 du Code civil, le vendeur et l’acheteur sont réciproquement engagés lorsqu’il y a un accord entre les deux parties sur la chose et le prix.

Le prix mentionné dans cette offre vous sera versé lors de la signature, chez le notaire, de l’acte authentique de vente.

Dans l’attente d’une réponse positive de votre part, nous vous prions, Madame, Monsieur, d’agréer l’expression de nos sentiments distingués.

Monsieur Full name et Madame Full name.

The reason we included the terrace as a separate, independent plot was because the original purchasers/owners at the construction stage purchased the two top floor plots but only had an apartment constructed on one plot and the 2nd plot was constructed as a terrace but still retains its individual plot number.

Do your research and your homework. Good Luck.

[betise]

1 hour ago, cajal said:

Last Wednesday we signed an Acte de Vente for an appartment we intend to downsize too in the next couple of years.

We originally made a verbal offer to the agent which was rejected and the sellers propsed a higher offer price which we rejected. The following day the agent accepted our original offer on behalf of the sellers and requested the offer to be made in writing. We declined the request to use the sellers notaire.

This is an edited copy of the offer we made via email.

Objet: offre d’achat au prix concernant un bien immobilier situé à Résidence.... Full address.

Madame, Monsieur,

Nous souhaitons faire une offre d'achat pour Résidence ....Full address

Les acquéreurs:

Monsieur Full name, résidant à Full address, né Date andPlace of birth.

Madame Full name, résidant à Full address, née Date and Place of birth.

s’engagent à acheter le bien immobilier dont les caractéristiques sont les suivantes :

Appartement (avec terrace,garage et cellier)

Full address

 

xxx m², type x

Notre offre d’achat s’élève au prix de €xxxxxxx, offre text euros . Conformément à l’article 1583 du Code civil, le vendeur et l’acheteur sont réciproquement engagés lorsqu’il y a un accord entre les deux parties sur la chose et le prix.

Le prix mentionné dans cette offre vous sera versé lors de la signature, chez le notaire, de l’acte authentique de vente.

Dans l’attente d’une réponse positive de votre part, nous vous prions, Madame, Monsieur, d’agréer l’expression de nos sentiments distingués.

Monsieur Full name et Madame Full name.

The reason we included the terrace as a separate, independent plot was because the original purchasers/owners at the construction stage purchased the two top floor plots but only had an apartment constructed on one plot and the 2nd plot was constructed as a terrace but still retains its individual plot number.

Do your research and your homework. Good Luck.

I notice that you made no reference to how you would finance the deal. If it is dependant on the sale of your current home, there would need to be a clause suspensive, which some sellers would be adverse to.

Edited March 16 by betise
Typo

[cajal]

21 hours ago, betise said:

I notice that you made no reference to how you would finance the deal.

We informed the agent during our first visit to the property as to how we intended to fund the purchase. Cash, with no requirement for our present home to be sold or the necessity to acquire loans.

Maybe I'm missing something here. The email contact with the agent was Une Offre d'Achat. The offer was accepted with this reply:

The Names and Addresses of the 3 sellers. It was an Inheritance

Ci-après "le Vendeur",

Déclare accepter sans réserve, purement et simplement, l'offre d'achat qui m'a été transmise par l'Agence FT
Department and City location pour les biens situés Address of property to be purchased au prix de €in text and figures. Le montant des honoraires à la charge du VENDEUR est de €in text and figures.
Je reconnais que cette offre, comme son acceptation, ont été négociées par l'Agence, exploitée par la société Foncia
Transaction France , titulaire d'un mandat de négociation

No mention of funding was included in either correspondence.

Any Clause Suspensive we wanted to be included would then be accepted or rejected by the sellers. If they are accepted, (we didn't request any)they would have been included within the Compromis de Vente along with a clause setting out the funding of the purchase etc, etc and signed.

Within the Acte de Vente the following clause was included

ORIGINE DES FONDS

L’ACQUEREUR déclare avoir effectué le paiement du prix et des frais au moyen de ses fonds personnels.

 

[Edel]

On 16/03/2024 at 12:30, cajal said:

Last Wednesday we signed an Acte de Vente for an appartment we intend to downsize too in the next couple of years.

We originally made a verbal offer to the agent which was rejected and the sellers propsed a higher offer price which we rejected. The following day the agent accepted our original offer on behalf of the sellers and requested the offer to be made in writing. We declined the request to use the sellers notaire.

This is an edited copy of the offer we made via email.

Objet: offre d’achat au prix concernant un bien immobilier situé à Résidence.... Full address.

Madame, Monsieur,

Nous souhaitons faire une offre d'achat pour Résidence ....Full address

Les acquéreurs:

Monsieur Full name, résidant à Full address, né Date andPlace of birth.

Madame Full name, résidant à Full address, née Date and Place of birth.

s’engagent à acheter le bien immobilier dont les caractéristiques sont les suivantes :

Appartement (avec terrace,garage et cellier)

Full address

 

xxx m², type x

Notre offre d’achat s’élève au prix de €xxxxxxx, offre text euros . Conformément à l’article 1583 du Code civil, le vendeur et l’acheteur sont réciproquement engagés lorsqu’il y a un accord entre les deux parties sur la chose et le prix.

Le prix mentionné dans cette offre vous sera versé lors de la signature, chez le notaire, de l’acte authentique de vente.

Dans l’attente d’une réponse positive de votre part, nous vous prions, Madame, Monsieur, d’agréer l’expression de nos sentiments distingués.

Monsieur Full name et Madame Full name.

The reason we included the terrace as a separate, independent plot was because the original purchasers/owners at the construction stage purchased the two top floor plots but only had an apartment constructed on one plot and the 2nd plot was constructed as a terrace but still retains its individual plot number.

Do your research and your homework. Good Luck.

Congrats on your new apartment.   Wishing you lots of happiness in your new home 🙂  Thanks a mill for the info and template on the offer - that's all brilliant information and really helpful.  Thanks so much