New tax on non resident home owners

[Loiseau]

Yes, they have it round us too, idun, though it was a pretty small amount I seem to remember, from back in the days when I used to let a gite.  In fact it was so small that I used to just tot it up and pay it myself at the end of the season, rather than nigglingly add it to the bills of the clients. 

Angela

[powerdesal]

I wonder if anyone will be in a position to point out that non French, non resident, second home owners / users are actually nett importers of money into the French economy.

We all spend lots of money in France, money that is generally taken out of our 'home' economy. We take nothing from the French State. We support local business, local employees, our communes (with our taxes).

Even the non-actif retired non French immigrants are a nett gain to France.

Imagine there are (say) 400,000 of us, all spending (say) E25,000 per year in France, that is a nett gain of E 10 Million / year. Not a massive amount by Govt standards but its all a gain, no offsets, no losses.

That yearly figure of course does not include initial capital outlay on buying (generally) unsellable housing stock.

If it stopped, I imagine a number of supermarkets, garages, local artisans, immobiliers etc etc would (in certain areas) find a measurable reduction in their trade, affecting trade viability and possibly (probably) job security for employees.

Still, it won't affect the Politicians and will be a vote catcher amongst the 'less than switched on' members of the public.

[Bob T]

I have no problem with this proposed new tax. I cannot afford to keep a home in the UK and in France so I am a French resident with one home. If I were rich enough to have a home in the UK too, then presumably I would have enough money to pay the extra tax.

[breizh]

I make that 10billion[:D]

However, the figures are irrelevant. You lot pretty well all live in Mortville-sur-Bois. 90% of the French live in big towns and cities. They really don't care about Mortville-sur-Bois, but they do care about making sure THEY don't pay any more tax.

Nothing wrong for pandering to the politics of envy. Rich foreigners............easy target!!

[cooperlola]

In principle, Bob, I agree with  you - those who have more share their good fortune with those who have less - the whole point of taxation, non?.  However, Breizh's point is also well taken and all that's at stake here are votes - most of us don't have those so st*ff us.  It won't end with second home owners - non French nationals are all easy targets when the far right is being courted  - it's not overtly racist but it panders to those who are.

However, what happens to the economy in Mortville does impact on everybody - fewer jobs, squeezed economy - more social security and unemployment pay coming out of the exchequer.  But it's a bit like single tranferable votes - they might be a good idea but god help those who have to explain why to a selfish electorate.  If it's not coming out of my wallet, it doesn't matter, does it?[6]

[bubbles]

Erm - false premise, Bob.

There are folk with mansions (well, 4 or 5 bed detached houses worth quite a bit) in the UK who don't own property abroad. Some of them have very healthy incomes thank you very much.

And then there are other folk who might own a small apartment in the UK (worth hardly anything) and a small property in France (ditto).

These folk are forking out for two lots of council tax/tax d'habitation and fonciere and two lots of standing charges for water and electricity.

Their equity could well be quite a lot less than Mr and Mrs detached house in England!

And so could their income!

One big house versus two small ones!

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="Bob T"]I have no problem with this proposed new tax. I cannot afford to keep a home in the UK and in France so I am a French resident with one home. If I were rich enough to have a home in the UK too, then presumably I would have enough money to pay the extra tax.
[/quote]

Wow Bob T - Robin Hood a mate is he ?

I don't agree with your somewhat biased (is it envy I wonder?) view. I worked hard, had some luck and invested well for my 'wealth' - it's mine, my familys and anyone else I 'choose' to share it with. I pay my taxes, don't owe anyone anything and am not a burden to anyone or any state. I sure as heck ain't going to be 'humble' for being successful and am certainly not here to further subsidise those who didn't work as hard or invest as well. If that makes me a target to help top-up the coffers then - it's a big world out there, plenty of other places to live. Oh and by the way - I don't have any property in the UK!

Simon :-) (enjoyed that)

 

 

 

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]

Simon :-) (enjoyed that)

[/quote]So much that you said it twice.[:D]

[woolybanana]

Nay, thrice!

[Pickles]

[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"]

Simon :-) (enjoyed that)

[/quote]So much that you said it twice.[:D]

[/quote]

Thrice?

Pickles

[Simon-the-censored]

You know what coops - I've been sanding wood floors all day so well ready for a fight! :-) BobT was just in the right place at the right time....

There are times......

Simon :-) (feeling much much better)

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Simon-come-lately"]

Simon :-) (enjoyed that)

[/quote]So much that you said it twice.[:D]

[/quote]
Thrice?

Pickles
[/quote]Crikey, so he did!  They're muliplying by the second.

[Stan Streason]

Its been relatively easy for me to tot up.

The throughput on my french bank account in the just over 2 years I have had the property is just over €40k (including building works and pool renovations).  If I add the notaire and agent fees of another €25k (the house was purchased from an Englishman so I dont count that) plus my Nationwide French credit card purchases over 27months of €8k, I have put well over €70k into the French economy.  What have I used - a bit of their tarmac (peage tolls of €1,000 inc within the €40k).

Is it fair? - well obviously not.

Will it happen? - without question

Will I sell because of this? - no but I may cut down a bit on other discretionary expenditure

Would I buy again knowing this? - probably not - I hate being taken for a mug - there is no rational long term economic justification for this.  It is purely political and I wouldnt want to give the polititians the satisfaction even if I put myself out in the process.  I would rather go where I was wanted.

[Simon-the-censored]

ditto that Stan

Simon :-) (got a beer now)

[powerdesal]

[quote user="breizh"]

I make that 10billion[:D]

However, the figures are irrelevant. You lot pretty well all live in Mortville-sur-Bois. 90% of the French live in big towns and cities. They really don't care about Mortville-sur-Bois, but they do care about making sure THEY don't pay any more tax.

Nothing wrong for pandering to the politics of envy. Rich foreigners............easy target!!

[/quote]

My error, it is 10 billion, still small compared to national govt budgets though.

I've never been to Mortville-sur-Bois, where is it???????????

Driving out or rather persuading non French non residents to not spend their imported wealth in France is hardly going to reduce the tax burden on the French public living in big towns and cities is it ? If anything it could even increase it !!!!

[idun]

Not a lot is 'fair' in this world. The french government has, this year had approx 15000€ off us and that could end up being even more like 20K€ and  we were expecting to have that money.

We have been 'had' by the french government on many occassions and they have taken lots of money from us. I suppose that if we had lived most of our lives in the UK, the same would have happened too.

The reason we haven't got a pied a terre in France is because we know that it would have stretched us too much. We knew how much life in France was, how much local taxes could be and how much water bills could be. I know that when we lived in France we were paying a lot lot more for those particular bills than a lot of posters on here, but it always seemed odd to me, and I didn't imagine that the rest of France wouldn't catch up at some point. I think that one has to be rather a l'aise to run two properties and a little extra tax should not be a problem.

[idun]

Mortville sur Bois, is close to Nullepartville-en-Pleincampagne. Well not that close[;-)]

 

Just lost in the petits bleds.

[powerdesal]

How many taxpayers in France? say 50 million.

extreme case of get rid of all those sponging rich foreigners (and their 10 billion euros) the loss can easily be made up by each French tax payer paying an extra 200 euros a year tax. No problem there. The taxpayer will, I am sure, think its a bargain.

[idun]

Who said that the foreigners were sponging?

What is being said is that obviously these people must be well heeled or they wouldn't be able to afford a second home, so we'll have a little more from them. Great vote winner as has been said. Please remember that an awful lot of people in France cannot afford to own 'one home' never mind a second one. Second home owners must appear to be very rich as that means that they already own 'one home'.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="powerdesal"]How many taxpayers in France? say 50 million. extreme case of get rid of all those sponging rich foreigners (and their 10 billion euros) the loss can easily be made up by each French tax payer paying an extra 200 euros a year tax. No problem there. The taxpayer will, I am sure, think its a bargain.[/quote]These sums will never be done (at least no aloud) - they are irrelevant.  It's not about economics, it's about politics and the politicians know that xenophobia is a vote winner.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="idun"]

Who said that the foreigners were sponging?

What is being said is that obviously these people must be well heeled or they wouldn't be able to afford a second home, so we'll have a little more from them. Great vote winner as has been said. Please remember that an awful lot of people in France cannot afford to own 'one home' never mind a second one. Second home owners must appear to be very rich as that means that they already own 'one home'.

[/quote]Fine, so let's get the same money from my Parisien neighbours who have a second home they only use for a few weeks a year - the same applies them, doesn't it?  Oh, no, they're not funny and foreign (except to the average Sarthois!) so they might vote for somebody else if we target them.

What is so blindingly obvious about this move is that it's not about money at all - it's purely about votes and it's the fact that it's only aimed at non-French that proves it.

I'm all for taxation and the redistribution of wealth but let's not dress racism up as economic expediency, please.

[Simon-the-censored]

coops -brilliant! absolutely agree

Love this thread....

Simon :-) (not a cent more!)

[Clair]

[quote user="Pierre ZFP"]So the tax is 20% of rental income?  But I don't rent mine out- never!

Do you think they'll impose an 'assumed' rental?

This was done in Spain IIRC a few years back with the result on many people selling up

[/quote]

I suspect it wouldn't be rental income, but rental value, as is currently used for local taxes.

[Bob T]

People with houses in both countries must be used to being fleeced by the UK government, so what is the problem with the French government doing a bit of the same?

[Jon 1]

We fall into this latter category.

For the past few years we have been spending less time in France largely due to having to support very elderly parents.

Despite the fact that we will only be in France for about 6 weeks max this year, we still have all the associated costs in owning a small apartment. They amount to about £2,500 p.a. We don’t rent the apartment out. It is just for our own use.

This new tax is the final straw as far as we are concerned. It was difficult enough with existing costs.

When we return to France this summer we will be attempting to sell our apartment. The market does not look very good at the moment though.

We are being squeezed at home and abroad and the pips are squeaking.

We pay for much more than we consume in France, and this new tax is not acceptable.

If we manage to sell our apartment, it will be pastures new for us.

The money that we and others spend in France all adds up.

I just hope that this tax measure comes back to bite them.