what is this item?

[opas]

A little query here, A tnnant across the street has apparently not paid her rent for a few months and has been kicked out by the landlord.

She was a strange woman ,not too unusual, but wanted to know the ins and outs of our lives and how we decided to live here, but the momment the conversation moved to her she made her excuses and left our company. she got a `manfriend` and changed her fashion sense from trousers and jumpers to floaty dresses and leather pants.  He would sit on the doorstep drinking whiskey and listening to regae and dancing in the road.....he called our kids racist as they would not play tennis with him when he was drunk.

Anyway , the house has been cleared by the landlord and his grandkids were playing with her stuff, feather duster, clothes manequin and other stuff 2 of which we had a chuckle at.........we thought they were whips(kinky thoughts were passing through our minds) when today we went to the local market and there on the hardware stall were these whips........surely they have another use to my smutty thoughts, I thought perhaps they are used to control the dogs, Mr O thiks they could be for flapping away flies..... They consist of a wooden handle and appear to be leather tails to them, put me out of my misery.......I probably would hve had a grin from ear to ear if I had innocently asked te market stall holder what they were used for!

Mrs O

[SaligoBay]

Very boring answer here.   Are they those things they sell in the doggy part of the supermarket, among the leads and collars and stuff?  No, honestly, they do!   They look like little multi-tail whips, called a martinet or something. 

I would ask the dog, but he's still very young and I don't want to spoil his innocence just yet.

[chris pp]

I suspect it is what some of the hunters use on their dogs.  Nice?

Chris

[opas]

I shall stick with my orriginal mucky thoughts then, seeing as they didn`t have a dog and I don`t think he would have gone hunting  in his winkle pickers!  I will have a mooch in the pet part of the supermarket if I can stomach the smell.

Mrs O

[Teamedup]

And in the early 80's people used to tell me that that was what Mamie's would buy to control unruly children.  Never actually heard of anyone being chastised in this way though, although maybe it 'used' to happen.

 

ps yes you can still buy them to beat dogs with, and that is really really stupid isn't it.

[SaligoBay]

TU, I did a search on "martinet" to make sure I'd got the right word.  Lots of tales of children being chastised with them.  All French, of course!

Yes, I was a bit perplexed to see them with the pet stuff.  I really did rack my brains trying to think of a use for them, because I just couldn't believe they were standard punishment/training devices.   But they definitely weren't with the toys.

[Teamedup]

Yes, raclee au martinet. Delightful isn't it. I wouldn't hit anyone with one of these things unless they asked me nicely ofcourse and called me Mistress.

[le bouffon]

You mean they don`t already.............

[battypuss1]

It depends how much you're paying before I consider a martinet...

[Clair]

[quote user="Teamedup"]And in the early 80's people used to tell me that that was what Mamie's would buy to control unruly children.  Never actually heard of anyone being chastised in this way though, although maybe it 'used' to happen.[/quote]

Although we have never met, you can now say you know of at least ONE person being punished with a martinet. It happened to me and my sisters... and I am not even 50!

Almost every family had one where I come from and once it had been used on you, the mere threat of the martinet would make you behave.

Oh yes, I am very familiar with the old martinet. My mother used it liberally on our bare legs and sometimes bare bums whenever she wanted to ensure a quiet evening...The pinch and the lasting burn, once "tasted" are never forgotten. The red marks on the legs tell everyone what a naughty child you are (well, you must have been naughty, other wise there'd be no reason to use it, right?)

I often likened it the the cat-o'-nine-tails and never realised until quite late that English people didn't know what I was talking about.

My neighbour has one and uses the threat of it when her grand-daughter is not doing as told... The child's mother never bats an eyelid. She also uses it on the cat and the dog.

Still feeling smutty?

[Teamedup]

I'll have to ask friends if they ever suffered this punishment.

And I have never been in any conversation about these whips since the early 80's either and my kids never told me that any of their friends had had this done to them.

I do realise that these whips are still for sale and have always thought of the poor animals rather than humans being on the wrong end of them.

[le bouffon]

Some people like being whipped,and since it is not against the law,bonne chance.Not for me though.

[Clair]

[quote user="Teamedup"]I'll have to ask friends if they ever suffered this punishment.[/quote]

Your friends might be too embarrassed to tell you, in these here enlightened days of child rearing...

Of course, they were/are never knowingly sold or displayed for the purpose of being used against a child, no, of course not (yeah, right!) but le martinet was used for anything: from bad school report to lying or fighting...

Some parents would say they only had one to use as a threat, but would never use it, oh no...

"Moi monsieur, je ne frappe jamais mes enfants" was commonly heard.

Well, if you used a slipper or a martinet, it was not a gifle, so it didn't count! Having spent years in French schools, I can tell you otherwise!

[Debra]

It took a couple of pages but I eventually found what you were talking about on Wikepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martinet but  note the comments about the English equivalents!  caning (I got that at school); birching (sounds like a martinet made out of sticks!) and boy's pussy (p-u-s-s-y - edited to add this because its asterixed out in the posted version, though not in the preview!) - which if you follow the link, actually looks like a martinet but slightly more viscious!   Note also that its 'generally believed' that though martinets are now sold in pet sections they are still used on children.

A martinet (French word, possibly from marteau 'hammer' since one beats with it, and it is also a type of hammer in French) is a short, scourge-like (multi-tail) type of whip made of a wooden handle of about 25 cm (10 inches) in length and about 10 lashes of equal, relatively short length. The lashes are usually made of leather, but sometimes soap-stiffened cords are used in place of leather. It is a traditional instrument of physical punishment in France (in French it also meant a similar dusting implement; the type for chastisement was also known as fouet d'enfant, 'child's whip') and other European countries.

The martinet was often applied on the calves, for children did not have to disrobe that way. Otherwise it was often applied on the bare buttocks, adding a dose of humiliation to the physical pain, like the English and Commonwealth caning, birching, naval boy's pussy, American paddling, et cetera. As it is not blunt and heavy, impact on cloths would be reduced too much to remain effective.

It is generally considered abusive to use it for spanking children nowadays. Still, martinets are still sold in the pet section of French supermarkets; it is generally believed that a large share of those sold are meant for use on children, not pets, or at least to threaten them. It is also often still carried demonstratively by Zwarte Pieten (male black assistants of Saint Nicholas, the European original of Santa Claus, celebrated on December 6; attribute persisting where lashes are banned, as in Belgium) to chastise very naughty kids instead of leaving presents.

• The martinet is also used as an implement in erotic spanking scenes, hard to distinguish from the flogger but that is usually lighter

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="DebraA64"]

So much for only the French being this nasty to their kids!  [/quote]

I think it's more an issue of the French STILL being this nasty to their kids!  And their dogs. 

As France gradually becomes more affluent, things are gradually getting better, and there are a few "enlightened" dog-owners and child-owners around.  But I would say that a "I will MAKE you obey me" attitude, often accompanied by a wallop round the head, is still a widespread and generally accepted means of training.  For dogs and children.  It's so common, it's not even an issue, if you see what I mean.

I just can't imagine using one of these things on a child or a dog.    

[Viv]

I don't condone physical violence, but I have to say that IMHO , I have generally found French kids are far better behaved and respectful than UK ones.

Eg - I used to dread having my childrens friends round in the UK, but not here. I can walk past a bus shelter full of teenagers and their mopeds without their making any comments. French kids also seem far less inclined to backchat as well.

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="viva"]

I don't condone physical violence, but I have to say that IMHO , I have generally found French kids are far better behaved and respectful than UK ones.

[/quote]

And why do you think that is?  [;)]

It's true, I do prefer my son's French friends to his UK ones, they are better at putting up with adults.

But French people say that fings ain't what they used to be, and children aren't nearly as respectful (=beaten!) as they used to be, and I think that's true too.   I wouldn't go near the ones that hang around bus shelters with mopeds.  I don't like the things they graffiti.  I don't like the broken bottles.  I don't like the fact that they smear the bus shelter with brown stuff - probably HP sauce, but still, it's not pretty!

 

[chris pp]

In town, Civray, population about 5000 I think,  sh*t is regularly smeared on walls and the post boxes set on fire, in fact several of the post boxes have had to be sealed and taken out of use. Also 3 years back, in a small commune nearby 8 children raped a female teacher, so I am not so sure about better behaved, this is a very rural area 50 kilometres from the nearest city.

In any case, a society that relies on physical violence against children to "gain respect" seems to be missing the point somewhere. Fear is not the same as respect.

Chris

[Debra]

Good points Chris.  Perhaps you could post that on the other thread, http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PageIndex=5&PostID=640293, which seems to be degenerating into an argument that whatever methods are used in France, by teachers or parents, they are justified and should never be questioned because French children are sooo much more nicely behaved than UK children!  Oh, not to mention that French parents are happy about the schools and beating their kids/having their kids beaten and if we don't like it, we shouldn't dream of undermining the teacher's authority by questioning it and we shouldn't move to France!

[JohnM]

Is there another definition for a martinet OR would there have been a vllage martinet place? I ask because I live in an area called "Le Martinet"

John

 

[Debra]

the other definition is the kind of person who would use the article rather than the article itself.

Martinet:

1. A rigid military disciplinarian.

2. One who demands absolute adherence to forms and rules.

[Debra]

or if you look in that dictionary TU posted somewhere, the French definition:

martinet
(nom masculin)
Sorte d'hirondelle à très longues ailes.• Sorte de fouet à lanières.• Petit chandelier plat muni d'un manche.• Marteau à bascule pour battre les métaux.

which babel fish says means:

Left swallow to very long wings. Left whip to thin straps. Small flat candlestick provided with a handle. Hammer with rocker to beat metals

[chris pp]

The one that "translates" as "Left swallow to very long wings" is in fact Swifts.

Chris

[godwinsj]

I am not sure how much thngs have changed behind the scenes though I have never heard of a martinet but the kids come back from school with some fairly appalling stories of how their friends are treated.

For instance electronic collars are still widely for sale in supermarkets, animaleries & hunting shops for training dogs. If they are prepared to be this barabaric openly towards their dogs, what are they prepared to do to their kids behind the scenes?

I don't think kids being better behaved in the streets is because they have (or not) been brutalised at home. Indeed, bullying produce bullies. I think it is because of responsablité civique - i.e. you cause any damge you or your parents have to pay for it!

[Debra]

Good point - and a law which would definitely be of benefit in the UK if it was copied there!