What would you have done ?

[Russethouse]

As this IS the lounge and this happened in the UK I am going to ask your opinion.

Yesterday my sister and I took my 86 year old mother out for a birthday lunch in a nice riverside restaurant.  The restaurant was busy for a Tuesday with mixed age groups, some large groups of 30-40 year olds, a couple of tables of rather chic over 60s and 2 young mums with their offspring.

I immediately noticed a cherubic looking little boy about 18months old as he bore a striking resemblance to a child I looked after (when I was a nanny) To begin with this little boy was fine, generally. Various toddler type noises and chuntering but nothing untoward, however as the meal progressed the volume got higher and higher, from his body language my guess is that he was tired and wanted a cuddle. The mothers just chatted on, ignoring the considerable racket and making no attempt to pacify the little boy.  It was obviously spoiling the pleasure of other diners.

Eventually they paid the bill and left, as they got up to go, the older ladies at the table behind us started a slow hand clap !

Who was rudest - the mother for ignoring the other diners (and her child [:(]) or the hand clappers?

 Should we have done something, other than put up with it ?

[ali-cat]

I am probably the worst person to be answering this - I don't have kids & therefore don't know how hard it can be to constantly try to keep kids entertained or well-behaved.  I was, however, once a kid myself - & know that if I had ever misbehaved in a public place my parents would have throttled me (possibly the reason I've never wanted kids!! [:)] ).

I probably wouldn't have slow hand clapped the people concerned, when they left  - but I can understand why someone did.  We have, in the past, asked staff in restaurants to either speak to other diners, with noisy, screaming rude children if something could be done, or for Mark & I to be found another table, further away from the noise.  Kids crying because they are upset or tired I understand - but parents who allow their childern to run around screaming, bumping into & annoying other diners - in my opinion - is not on. 

But as I said - I don't have kids - so I'm not in a position to comment about the difficulties parents go through.  And as I was such a perfect child - my judgement may be a little harsh!!  [Www]

[opas]

I do not feel that the hand clappers were rude, what kind of reception did they get from the childs mum?

As a parent of two girls , I felt I knew their'paterns' , ie that you know when they are/will be tired, and arranged my day accordingly, I could no more listen to my girls get ratty than I can someone elses, were these two mums deaf?

Anyway enough from this sanctimonious parent, I have an 8 year old downstairs feeling sorry for herself and craving attention as she had her Tetanus /Polio booster yesterday.

[Debra]

I wouldn't class the mothers as rude - simply cruel to the poor child! In the same situation I'd have asked the waitress if she couldn't bring the child something to distract him - they usually have crayons and pictures to colour in.  At least then the mother would have to pay attention to make sure he didn't eat the crayons!

[Iceni]

Gay, you are English so doing/saying nothing, including never going back to that resto, is the correct course of action. Though a reasonable person might be excused for saying, in a stage whisper, "would someone please strangle that noisy little ******, or better still, the woman allgedly in charge of him"

John

not

[Russethouse]

Quite John ![:)]

Actually I felt torn. In France children do seem to dine with their parents without incurring the wrath of other diners and one bit of me wanted to be tolerant. One part of me wanted to strangle the mother (it really wasn't the little boys fault, I may be wrong but I think it was his nap time) if only she had picked him up !(He was so sweet, I'd have given him a cuddle in a heartbeat )and yet another part wanted to complain. 

 

[Pip]

I think it was inconsiderate of the mums to allow the child to make so much noise.  I would have been mortified if any of my children had disrupted other people's enjoyment in a public place.  However, my youngest is 23 years old and the parental attitudes of some seem to have changed since then - I'm not saying everyones !  I also think the older people were rude too and equally as embarrassing.  What were the staff doing ?  Even if they were very busy, the onus is surely on them to make sure their customers are happy.  A quiet word from them in the ear of the offending mum to ask her to either attend to the child, or take the child outside, seems appropriate.

[Debra]

I don't see the inconsideration so much as the cruelty!  Anyone who can ignore a child in that way is obviously not going to be concerned about the peace and quiet of a bunch of strangers.  I would have found it really hard to ignore, for the child's sake, and yes - the staff should have done something/had a word with the mother.  I don't think parental attitudes have changed (there must always have been such ignorant people/bad parents) but then I've had comments in France a few times now that my children are well behaved and polite - like French children; and so unlike the usual English children they see!  Maybe I just don't get out enough to notice the changes or how other kids behave.....

[ali-cat]

It's a very difficult situation - trying to enjoy your own time out & also trying to be polite & not aggravate the situation.  Sometimes it's just easier to ignore problems - even if it means your enjoyment is ruined.

I went to the dentist, last month & a young mother & her child were waiting in the waiting room, along with about 6 other people.  The mum sat & read magazines while the kid sat on the floor screaming, whilst throwing lego bricks, books & toys around, which had all been in a box for kids to play with. She didn't lift her head once.

When they were called to see the dentist, she just got up, walked out & left the mess behind - the mess her kid had made.  There were older (in fact, very old) patients also waiting , so a younger guy & I got down to tidy up - in case one of them slipped or fell over a toy.   The mother never batted an eye-lid (even though I had come in, limping, with my walking stick & was on the floor clearing up after her).  When she left, everyone looked at each other, rolled their eyes & laughed.  Nobody could believe what had just happened!!

Thank God I don't have kids!!  The cats are bad, enough!!  [:-))]

[Russethouse]

Several people did complain to the staff who said there was nothing they could do.

The food was very good, but the service was similar to another place I went to recently where a lot of people seem to be rushing about and not much getting done .............oh dear I'm getting old !

Contrast that with a place we went to the week before last - Wheelers of St James, at Exlade Street, under the name of Marco Pierre White. The head waiters or Maitre d' s suit and glasses must have been designer, talk about well cut ! The waiter was also smartly dressed. They took the orders. The waitress served the food, and she had an under waitress to hold the tray !!! Food was great too and very generous amounts (but sadly it would have been far too much for my mother)

Of course they are entirely different sorts of places, but good service always scores with me.

[JayJay]

I would have gone over & spoken to & distracted the tot, (sorry a sucker for kids!) that would have got the attention of the mum & then had a quiet, polite word with her, in the hope she'd be equally polite & not want to deck me for interfering.

[Debra]

Now jayjay - that would be my first instinct too: but I've done it in the past and been made to feel really awkward!

[JayJay]

So have I, hence the decking comment![;-)]

[Unknown]

I think the people clapping are rude, if they were that bothered they should have said something rather than wait until the mother and tot were leaving.

I am a Mum, fortunately mine are all past potty training and the mashed food stage.  I have always considered others when out and about or eating out, but sometimes kids just have a mind of their own.  You can distract and cuddle them as much as you like, but if they want to let rip then there's not a lot you can do about it.

Before we left the UK to live here, we went to a restaurant with some friends,  it was lunch time and the kids came with us.  We had just finsihed eating when a middle aged couple, which were about to leave after their meal, came over to us and congratulated me on having such well behaved children.  Naturally I was very proud of my kids, but surprised that these complete strangers had made the effort to come over and say this to me.

I think what I'm trying to say is, you get well behaved children and parents and also the not so well behaved.  Perhaps if people were a little more complimentary to parents about their kids, as lets face it, how often do we get told we are doing a good job, then it may make it easier to advise parents when the kids are being a pain in the a*se.

Just a thought.

[ali-cat]

I don't think anyone would, or could, blame a child for misbehaving, out in public.  The parents - that's another matter!!  Yes, kids get tired, stroppy & noisy, but if a parent is not bothered about how their "little angel" is annoying other people - they deserve to be told so.  I know it's not the situation being discussed - but I hate spoilt brats who throw tantrums or parents who think it's ok to let them run riot, just so they can have a coffee & chat, while everyone else is struggling to hear themselves think.

My parents knew thay could take my sister & I anywhere, when we were kids - & my sister can do the same with hers - but things have changed over the last few years.  Parental discipline seems to have all but vanished.   I do give a smile or quick "hello" to kids & parents who have been sitting close by, in cafes, but I'd also "thank them" for ruining my enjoyment, with Mark or friends, if necessary.  If it manages to embarrass them - good - as my point has been made.

p.s. I also then tend to leave, very quickly - just in case of the deckings, mentioned earlier!!

[Pip]

I don't see the inconsideration so much as the cruelty!  Anyone who can ignore a child in that way is obviously not going to be concerned about the peace and quiet of a bunch of strangers  (Debra)

Yes Debra, I didn't mean to imply that the child was of no consequence !  To me they always come first ,full stop.

I agree with Gay and JJ, my first inclination would be to swish the child up in a big hug. 

[Debra]

The sad thing is, Pip, that nowadays if you showed any consideration to the child in this instance, if you don't get decked then the parents are at the very least likely to look at you as if you're some sort of pervert or looney to be interested in the welfare of the child (you get away with more if you have your own small children with you).  After all, if it's own mother isn't bothered, why would anyone else be?

[Russethouse]

I agree, any embryo thought that I might have offered to hold him while the mother finished her meal was quickly quashed by the knowledge that I would probably be labeled a danger to society (no comments please !)

In retrospect I think the staff could have handled it better, one table did complain during the meal, but the staff did nothing. Surely a quiet word wouldn't have gone amiss ?

 

[Rosebud]

Parental discipline seem to have all but vanished......

(couldn't get the quote to work, sorry!)

 

Ali, this is a sweeping statement which you only ever here from people without kids.  I find it unfair.  It's bloody hard work!  My two are generally OK in public, but believe me they can run me ragged as well.  I would be mortified if I thought they were upsetting others, and I try my damndest to make sure they don't, but kids do play up sometimes, and it's not fair to blame the parents without knowing all the facts.

Maybe the mum was tired and stressed.  Maybe she would have responded to somebody (perhaps the staff) politely asking her to do something about the child.  I don't know. 

Before I had kids I was a staunch member of the 'can't you control that brat?' brigade!!  Now I always try to to understand the situation before jumping to conclusions. 

Of course I'm not condoning letting kids run wild, heaven forbid!  But I strongly feel that the slow hand clapping was both cruel and ignorant. To do  that makes the hand clappers every bit as bad if not worse than the seemigly uncaring mother.........

 

 

[Pangur]

[quote user="Rosebud"]

  But I strongly feel that the slow hand clapping was both cruel and ignorant. 

[/quote]

Exactly.  I'm actually stunned that adults in a restaurant would stoop this low - cowardly and rude in the extreme.  Old ladies can be evil, eh?  If they had a problem they should have insisted the staff do something about it or have the balls to address the parents.  While I'm sure this particular child was annoying, and of course there are unruly kids about with feckless parents, but there are also a lot of people who have a lot of antagonism towards any children making any noise in public.  All very well for people saying "when I were a lad", but I'll bet not many of them were taken out to adult venues too often and if they misbehaved a good wallop would have shut them up.  Most parents don't have that option these days (thankfully so).

[Pangur]

oops

[Pip]

Rosebud, I think in this case the facts were that the mum was more interested in pursuing her own conversation rather than caring for her child or considering other people - totally self-indulgent.

It is very hard work looking after kids, no-one can deny that, but the effort parents put in is definitely worth it when, as Dotty said, you can be proud of your kids.

Debra, I take your point about jumping in and being viewed as perverted or looney.  Isn't it sad ?  It would break my heart if I saw a lost child crying and I couldn't offer some comfort or help.  I can see both sides though because I have two young grandchildren aged four and two years old and I'm very over protective.

[Rosebud]

[quote user="Pip"]

Rosebud, I think in this case the facts were that the mum was more interested in pursuing her own conversation rather than caring for her child or considering other people - totally self-indulgent.

It is very hard work looking after kids, no-one can deny that, but the effort parents put in is definitely worth it when, as Dotty said, you can be proud of your kids.

[/quote]

Show me a parent who isn't proud of their kids!  I know I am tremendously proud!  I'm also a lot more sympathetic towards other parents whose children are 'playing up' because they ALL do it from time to time.

However, to make a sweeping statements about how discipline has 'all but' disappeared, implies that today parents aren't as good as they used to be.  It's simply unfair.

I agree that in this case it sounds as though the mother was being self induglent, as you put it.  However, I feel the old women who slow hanclapped were far worse. 

Nobody deserves to be treated like that.  A polite word in her ear should have been enough....... 

[powerdesal]

 Rosebud,

Your comment that Ali made 'a sweeping statement that you only ever hear from people without kids' is equally sweeping and patently wrong.

I (we) have raised 3 x children and have 6 x grandchildren and we are all (grandparents and parents alike)  fully of the opinion that parental discipline, acceptance of responsibility and sheer good manners are sadly lacking in the present ''children can do no wrong and must be allowed to fully express themselves'' society.

Our children were raised to be good mannered and considerate of others,often in 'single parent circumstances (due to HMG Forces). Should we accept or expect less of 'modern' parents, stressed/tired or not. Yes, raising children is hard work - been there, but that is not and should not be an excuse.

Regards

 

[Pip]

Rosebud, looking around I sometimes see parents who are obviously not proud of their children, in fact they seem to view them as bit of a hindrance.  Yes, all children do play up for various reasons but it's how the situation is handled that's important.  In this case perhaps the mum should have been talking to her child or paying him attention rather than to her friend.