IB

[5-element]

[quote user="Boiling a frog"]

 

You protest too much

[/quote]

Is that your definitive diagnosis? Are you entitled to make it?

[5-element]

[quote user="Cat"]

I don't see the connection you're trying to make in that last sentence 5E. 

Are you talking about BaF's remark or your own?  Clearly, from the guidelines posted, the ability to pick up a kettle, or indeed the score from the questionnaire, isn't a deciding factor until 29 weeks of sick leave have been completed.  I'm no expert, but I don't think a doctor would grant 29 weeks sick leave based on someone's ability to pick up a kettle (or even a mug).

 

[/quote]

This sentence below, from Boiling a Frog, is what I was referring to, Cat.

No wonder they are changing the rules if you can qualify for IB just because you cannot pick up a kettle (said BAF)

For the record, I am not claiming, neither have I ever claimed Incapacity Benefit -  in case my own integrity is at stake - I have no vested interest in the issue, except in defending what I see as easy targets.

This is now creeping towards general unpleasantness, and I have no interest in fomenting any more than what is already there. I will therefore exit as gracefully as possible (although I still would like the sentence "you protest too much" to be completed. Too much for what?). No?  Didn't think so. Nevermind.

I only wish that as much indignation was directed at golden parachutes, arms and drug dealers, slave traders, sleep merchants, pimps, etc...

[Russethouse]

5 Element - think about this: What incentive is there for a French doctor to save the UK taxpayer 1 bean ?

The cases are dealt with on an individual basis aren't they? One forum member has said she is OK until 2012

Also if you had read the link I posted a couple of days back the author suggests that anyone with a reasonable IQ can imitate stress (one of the joys of the internet) Factor in a little language difficulty and you could have a fairly reasonable recipe for a fraud, if you were so minded.

Are you now saying you don't believe ANY IB claimants in France are committing fraud?

Why are you defending the indefensible - benefit cheats of any description, anywhere are common thieves, no better no worse

[5-element]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Are you now saying you don't believe ANY IB claimants in France are committing fraud?

Why are you defending the indefensible

[/quote]

Where have I ever said such things? I was very, VERY careful to say (twice, actually) that I did not know anybody PERSONALLY who was committing an IB fraud..., but that there surely must be some........

The IB recipients I have come across have verifiable medical conditions (you know, problems that you can SEE - not that you can FAKE). NOT STRESS.

 

[Russethouse]

But what most of us are talking about IS the people who are cheating NOT genuine claimants!

My problem is this attitude of 'you mustn't discuss it' from some, I'm afraid that is just censoring debate.

[Rose]

[quote user="Puzzled"][quote user="Russethouse"]

5 Element - think about this: What incentive is there for a French doctor to save the UK taxpayer 1 bean ?

[/quote]

So because they are FRENCH doctors they are fraudsters , charlatans, willing to sign anything to get one over the old enemy  ?

Does there need to be an "incentive"?

I think you do the profession a great disservice.

[/quote]

Gosh - that's a big leap isn't it?

[Rose]

RH just asked... What incentive is there for a French doctor to save the UK taxpayer 1 bean ?   Whether I think she has a fair point or not I do know she didn't say  FRENCH doctors they are fraudsters , charlatans, willing to sign anything to get one over the old enemy... so IMO its a big leap.

 

 

[Russethouse]

Puzzled, Rose is right, its a very big leap.

Some cases may be borderline and there may be things a UK GP will know are available, to try to return the patient to work. (especially as this getting back to work is rolled out)

My bet is that even if you sent a French doctor all that info, it would be a very dedicated French GP who went all through it and said for instance ' there is suitable retraining in your old area and the Goverment will provide the transport for you to get there from your old home' I think it would help you, boost your self esteem, help you socialise etc'

Let's employ a little logic at least -

[Russethouse]

What you actually said (you have edited your post) is that  I was implying that French doctors  are fraudsters , charlatans, willing to sign anything to get one over the old enemy

I did  no such thing - actually I find your inference insulting so we are pretty much quits

I think you will find that UK doctors generally are tax payers themselves and have an investment in the system, (probably more than most)  just as all UK tax payers, I find that often  focuses the mind most effectively.

[Ron Avery]

Puzzled my friend I think you are very naive if you believe that all GPs assess people genuinely on the strength of their actual illnesses and their capacity to work, its far easier to sign someone off than have an argument about it.  If GPs really did their jobs properly how come half of South Wales is on IB and so many fraudsters who are capable of work are being picked up, who signed them off in the first place?  GPs are General practitioners not occupational therapists, their job is to assess whether a person is fit to work at the job that they do, not to assess whether they are fit to do any work, although some seem to have a habit of making that judgement. 

RH is right, if the health care of a patient is to be paid for by the UK and what is paid on an E 121 is a darn sight more than the average stumped up by CMU payers, there is no incentive for any French GP not to sign off an IB claimant whatsoever.  I do know people swinging it and to be fair to their French assessors the lengths that that these people have gone to protect their IB takes some believing.

The rules posted by BaF will no longer apply to new claimants from October and in fact since April have not applied to new applicants, now people are being assessed on what they can do and not what they cannot do, certain groups will be exempt from assessment but its not known yet whether existing claimants will be assessed under the new rules, that will probably be determined by the outcome of the green paper.

Just to get back to something that 5E wrote and I apologise for the curt answer but it was a very long post, very few amputees do not work.  DWP experience is that few claim IB and many are only too keen to get back to in some cases their old jobs.  We had one young man who lost his legs in a crash and within weeks was back heading up a team to make staff aware of the problems of disabilities, another man lost his arm to cancer and after some adaptations to the workplace and his desk was back to work, no thought of IB.  There is a positive side to these reforms, there are some people who for various reasons have not been made to get a job and now due to the more positive "what can you do" attitude are finding that with training they do have skills that can be used to improve their lives and get them into work. 

[mint]

Ron, "half of South Wales is on IB", where on earth did you get that from?

Far be it for me to argue with you but I cannot for the life of me imagine that half the people I knew when I lived in South Wales were on IB!

[Russethouse]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmselect/cmworpen/401/40104.htm

If you scroll down it looks like 11.2% which is the highest for the UK, however the report is 6 years old

[woolybananasbrother]

Though this doctor speaks in 2004 I suspect is more than ever relevant.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article421177.ece

 

[ali-cat]

 

Good Grief. Look what happens when you take a day off to top up the tan. [;-)]

Firstly I didn't think RH was getting at us specifically but I was a little confused about who exactly she did object to.

But now that some have thought fit to discuss our personal circumstances on this thread .....

Ron -Yes you did advise us that we could claim IB abroad. This is a perfectly legitimate entitlement and was a pleasant surprise given an uncertain future - but not in our case critical. Others however may be much more dependant on IB and where genuinely incapable of working must have deep concerns about any publicised 'crackdown' on IB. So while we have a personal interest in this topic it isn't because we live in fear of the proposed reforms. On the other hand I do wonder what motivates those who regularly spout vitriol on this subject and don't have a direct interest. When I was working I was too busy doing so to worry about how the government was misspending my taxes.

As for sacred cows its pretty clear to me that the anti-IB posters are the least open to a sensible discussion. It certainly doesn't help that each time the subject is raised on this forum its in the context of 'about bloody time too'. Having spent a number of years evaluating government employment and training programme I can guarantee that some innocent people will lose out and if you care to revisit the comments on this thread you'll see that all we have ever said is that these reforms are not necessarily a cause for unqualified celebration. No-one has ever said that everyone on IB is entitled to it. On the other hand there appears to be a few who believe that nobody is entitled.

As for us , it has certainly never been in our long term plans to spend the next 30 years 'on the sick'. Mrs Cat's condition is degenerative and inoperable and neither her consultants nor I expect her to be able to work again. In my case, the deal is that if and when I believe I'm capable of working again (and believe me I'll know), then regardless of what the DWP do, I will be either seeking work in France or more likely returning to the UK.

Unfortunately I'm sure I'm wasting my breath so I'll leave it there!

Mr Cat

[Russethouse]

What I find a complete puzzle is the lack of any condemnation of people who are being dishonest, is it because it's IB ?

People not appreciating you are genuinely sick because you put a good face on it is a different thing altogether and not what I am talking about at all

When I was working I was too busy doing so to worry about how the government was misspending my taxes.

Mr & Mrs Cat, I think you will find that in the next months a whole lot of people in the UK will be looking at where their taxes are going, peoples wages are not increasing in line with inflation, fuel is rising at an alarming rate, with all the ramifications that brings,  house value is slipping. When money is tight (and that is a fairly general UK theme right now - be careful, tighten your belt, bad times are on their way) Jo Bloggs wants to know what he is getting for that amount of tax deducted from his payslip each week or month and may be generally less tolerant of those getting something they do not deserve.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Russethouse"]

I save my empathy for those who deserve it thanks, not feckless fiddlers living in France.

[/quote]

How many do you know and how many have you shopped?

[/quote]

This type of inflamatory posting is why these threads go on and on. What else do you expect any rational person to do other than challenge a bigotted comment like this?

[Catalpa]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

What I find a complete puzzle is the lack of any condemnation of people who are being dishonest, is it because it's IB ?

[/quote]

It might be that while a number of people have condemned the people who are committing fraud, blanket condemnation of individuals when we have no possible way of accurately and fairly judging their circumstances or quality of life is pointless and verging on the spiteful. On the odd occasion I've known someone in receipt of long-term IB, their life has been no bed of taxpayer funded roses - quite the contrary.

They've been continually worried about how to manage their day-to-day life, been depressed and worried about the future and if they'd cope if they deteriorated or their partner became ill - or left them... and how they'd manage if IB qualifications were changed. They'd have given anything to be independent and healthy again.

Any benefit fraud is wrong. But I'd rather see a few people get away with it than see a different few individuals face serious hardship because they have it wrongly taken away from them.

[Russethouse]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Russethouse"]

I save my empathy for those who deserve it thanks, not feckless fiddlers living in France.

[/quote]


How many do you know and how many have you shopped?



[/quote]


This type of inflamatory posting is why these threads go on and on. What else do you expect any rational person to do other than challenge a bigotted comment like this?



[/quote]

Why Benjamin, are you saying there are none ?

I suspect you are reading things in that were never said or intended.

 

[Benjamin]

Well put.

To be honest I can't be asked to offer any rational posting on this as there is so much paranoia embodied in some postings by people who clearly don't have a clue about this subject.

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Benjamin"][quote user="Russethouse"]

I save my empathy for those who deserve it thanks, not feckless fiddlers living in France.

[/quote]

How many do you know and how many have you shopped?

[/quote]

You made the statement and I asked you to justify it; a question which you seem intent on ignoring.

[AnOther]

[quote user="Russethouse"]peoples wages are not increasing in line with inflation[/quote]Off topic and a subject all of it's own, but in one of last weekends broadsheet supplements there were some tables of the prices of essential items which people actually need to buy on a daily basis, food, fuel etc, not optional purchases like DVD players and flat screen TV's which which the government include to make the figure look good. Averaged for just those essential items then it comes out at a real inflation rate of 10.1% which is probably far more in line with what Joe Public feels it to be in his wallet.

This of course was before yesterdays rise of 35% in the price of gas [:-))]

[mint]

[quote user="Catalpa"][quote user="Russethouse"]

What I find a complete puzzle is the lack of any condemnation of people who are being dishonest, is it because it's IB ?

[/quote]
It might be that while a number of people have condemned the people who are committing fraud, blanket condemnation of individuals when we have no possible way of accurately and fairly judging their circumstances or quality of life is pointless and verging on the spiteful. On the odd occasion I've known someone in receipt of long-term IB, their life has been no bed of taxpayer funded roses - quite the contrary.

They've been continually worried about how to manage their day-to-day life, been depressed and worried about the future and if they'd cope if they deteriorated or their partner became ill - or left them... and how they'd manage if IB qualifications were changed. They'd have given anything to be independent and healthy again.

Any benefit fraud is wrong. But I'd rather see a few people get away with it than see a different few individuals face serious hardship because they have it wrongly taken away from them.
[/quote]

Catalpa, I so agree with your last sentence.

It's the argument I use when I speak against the Death Penalty (not that there is any comparison in seiousness!).  I'd rather a few get away with it than put to death one innocent person.

[Russethouse]

Benjamin, If you think I am discussing cases on forum (or off it actually) think again, I'm not.

Do you really imagine there are none ? Where do you draw the line, is it all right for 5 people to get it who shouldn't ? 10? 20 ?

Why am I the wicked witch of the north because I don't want to give the dishonest any money ?

That's not logical and we are back to 'lets not mention it because its IB' land again.

I think you imagine that I am supporting some sort of witch hunt, I'm not

Target money and support to those who need it and get tough on those who don't.

 

[Benjamin]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Benjamin, If you think I am discussing cases on forum (or off it actually) think again, I'm not.

Do you really imagine there are none ? Where do you draw the line, is it all right for 5 people to get it who shouldn't ? 10? 20 ?

Why am I the wicked witch of the north because I don't want to give the dishonest any money ?

That's not logical and we are back to 'lets not mention it because its IB' land again.

I think you imagine that I am supporting some sort of witch hunt, I'm not

Target money and support to those who need it and get tough on those who don't.

 

[/quote]

Fine. I have no disagreement with any of this posting but please refrain from making inflamatory postings about groups of people in general, when you clearly cannot sunstantiate your statement.

[Frederick]

There are many centers that persons on IB are reffered to in order to assist them back into the work place ....Rehabilitation centers that are kitted out with computors ...metal working and woodworking workshops etc and skilled staff paid to  train people back into  full time work ...Over the years I have been in contact with a great many  as I have to collect them from home drive them to these centers and take them home after 6 hours "work " ...at no cost to them ...NHS pays  for the "taxi "

I have felt sorry mainly for people who have suffered strokes who I see fighting hard to regain their health and who desperatly want to " get back to normal " and I  see how keen they are to retrain and you have to admire them .....

There is however another group who have had  mainly work related injuries or depression or drug dependancy  and have been out of the work place for years that do not want to be helped back into employment .....I have lost count of the number who are still in bed at 9am when I arrive to pick them up and the partner has answered the door with  "Not going in today "  I have lost count of the numbers of times I have been told "Its not worth getting a job "  as what they have left after benefit is stopped when they get a job they consider not worth getting out of bed for ....Of course there are many who deserve their benefits and they have to be given our sympathy. understanding and our tax money to give them a reasonable standard of living ..but the very many who will not face up to having to take the training on offer  and get  back to work  will have to be forced to ...even if they are just a "couple of quid a week  " better off after benefit is stopped . I watched the news report where the unemployed guy in East Anglia  said packing veg was a "mugs game " when the farmer up the road was paying good money to immigrants to do it and could not get enough help ....  I think they might have just have to be sent to the farm in future from the job center and the farmer can pay them their benefit  that week !