Bankers: Cameron shows his true colours

[NickP]

[quote user="Benjamin"] Grow up. Get a Life and move on but don't blame immigrants for all the country's woes.



[/quote]

Nobody is blaming immigrants for all of the countries woes, it might help if you digested what has been discussed before you get all pompous, but remembering you from past discussions that has never been your way has it? [:P]

[idun]

Maybe I am becoming a mad bad old sow, I don't know, but to me it feels like immigration is different these days.

If in the 50's, 60's 70's and early 80's there was immigration, the idea was that people fitted into british society. If it remains like that for some, then I would say for others isn't like that any more, at least round here it isn't. The human rights act and certain acts protecting religious freedoms, mean that some people can and do move and do not integrate or try to integrate. These religious freedoms mean that those who chose to interpret their belief in ways that actually go against every thing that our very heroic ancestors had worked for, are allowed to do so especially the rights of women. So those brave souls from our history who fought for the rights we now have, are royally ignored as it is not PC to criticize any body's belief, also, certain groups have been know to do a general alert, death threat against those who dare speak out.

I personally feel that the religious aspect is very slowly eroding women's rights and I don't actually believe that men will actually understand what I am talking about, which is fine.  But believe me when I see a woman in a niqab, following her husband and a boat load of kids in tow, I wonder where her rights are, because in 'my' society in England or France, she should have them.

I really do not care what colour any one's skin is, there are far more important things in the way that people can look at 'living' that are far more important to me. This from, as wooly said, a white uncircumsized english person.

Over the years I have known people from all over the place living in France and in England. And that is why I drone on about some sort of integration, as deep down, I feel that anyone chosing to live in another society, IMO owes it to that society to try and fit in, even awkwardly fit in.

So anyone who doesn't want our hard fought for western values, simply don't come, do what has been done here in the past. Fight and risk your life for your beliefs in your own country.  And IF anyone could offer a good alternative to our 'values', then fair enough, but the only ones I see being bandied about and to some extent being imposed are from that period we call the dark ages and as a woman, that cannot happen again.

And now to the crux of things. And maybe I was in France too long, but the feeling of employing one's own first feels right to me. eg How can a couple of my friends daughters having got their nursing degrees have trouble finding employment, when I can go to the hospital and be faced with a young nurse who I can hardly understand, and I have a half decent ear for pidgin english. How has this happened, the nurse at the hospital was very nice and pleasant, and helpful as she could be, but who decided on employing her over a native???? I do not understand it. Incidentally in France the job was not costing any french person employment, quite the reverse.

I keep editing this and editing, but this is more or less what I want to say and how I feel about things.

[Rabbie]

Listening today to an interview with the UKIP candidate in Eastleigh I gained the impression that many people had voted for her because they felt things were out of control. "Enough is Enough" is how she summaried the message on the doorstep. From the specific examples she gave - Waiting times to get a GP appointment, Austerity, immigration of people with different cultural values etc, it seemed to me that very few of these would be directly affected by the UK leaving the EU. While leaving the EU might mean a reduction in immigration from eastern europe already much reduced anyway most of the other specifics would not be affected at all.

Many of the people currently regarded as immigrants are the children or grandchildren of immigrants and were born in the UK. There are already many restrictions on immigration from non-EU countries and this is not dependant on our EU membership. At the moment everything that goes wrong seems to be blamed on the EU by certain elements in the press which is certainly helping UKIP

[Gardener]

[quote user="Benjamin"]I am deeply disturbed by the attitude of some posters to immigrants which, to be brutally frank, are more rooted in the UK of the 60s, 70s and 80s. I grew up near to Wolverhampton as a teenager and young man and I worked in Wolverhampton for a time. Enoch Powell's Rivers of Blood speech in April 1968 set the tone but my opinions were formed, erroneously as it happens, from listening to white people around me.

Over the years and watching the immigrant population grow out of their initial environment and begin to integrate into their surroundings (be it housing, jobs or outward lifestyles) I gradually realised that my opinions were wrong. I am pleased to say that it's been a pleasure to have them changed.

I liken it now to how, since returning to live in the UK almost three years ago, we have, and continue to, adjusted our opinions of the younger generation.

Grow up. Get a Life and move on but don't blame immigrants for all the country's woes.



[/quote] A virtual pint to that man. A banker, a Daily Mail reader and a benefit claimant are sitting at a table sharing 12 biscuits. The banker takes 11 of them and then says to the Daily Mail reader, “Watch out for the welfare scrounger, he wants your biscuit”. The benefit claimant can easily be replaced with immigrant. What is happening in Greece , eg The Golden Dawn racists (that the UK and western European really don't want to report on and you have to search a bit to find it) is really shocking. The West has lived beyond its means for years and whilst politicians look for new places to plunder, the people look for scapegoats and they are always societies most vulnerable.

[YCCMB]

The whole "fitting in" argument is fraught with difficulties and raises even more questions.

Yes, it's like the Brits or any other nationality in France. Let's take the Mahgrebin example. As someone's pointed out, many of those of Mahgrebin origin in France, like many UK Asians or Afro-Caribbeans, are not themselves citizens of North Africa, but French. Just like (I suspect) a majority of UK Asians are as British as me. So, at least those born in the country have been through their education and have come out the other side ready to work, have spoken English all their lives and are part of the fabric of society.

Which brings us on to "integration". I've said, many times, that integration  - and, most importantly, the decision as to when one is integrated, if such a decision needs to be taken - is more often in the hands of others. If the people around you decide, for whatever reason, that you're not integrated, or if they don't allow you to integrate (by discriminating against you when it comes to jobs and so on) then no amount of effort on your part is necessarily going to make you integrated. I've known second and third generation French Maghrebins here in the UK. One girl explained to my why she was here. She had a good job in the UK, in marketing for an international company. In France, she'd phone for jobs and they were all keen and eager till she told them her name, and then the position was mysteriously no longer available or had been filled... They stand a better chance in the UK, perhaps, than some other nationalities because as a general rule they're not our "usual" immigrants. IYSWIM.

It's not always the case, far from it, but quite often those who are the most keen to show their differences by - for example - holding extreme religious views have been pushed there by being marginalised as a result of their perceived difference. If you can't fit in, stand out.

[Quillan]

[quote user="idun"]Maybe I am becoming a mad bad old sow, I don't know, but to me it feels like immigration is different these days.

If in the 50's, 60's 70's and early 80's there was immigration, the idea was that people fitted into british society. If it remains like that for some, then I would say for others isn't like that any more, at least round here it isn't. The human rights act and certain acts protecting religious freedoms, mean that some people can and do move and do not integrate or try to integrate. These religious freedoms mean that those who chose to interpret their belief in ways that actually go against every thing that our very heroic ancestors had worked for, are allowed to do so especially the rights of women. So those brave souls from our history who fought for the rights we now have, are royally ignored as it is not PC to criticize any body's belief, also, certain groups have been know to do a general alert, death threat against those who dare speak out.

I personally feel that the religious aspect is very slowly eroding women's rights and I don't actually believe that men will actually understand what I am talking about, which is fine.  But believe me when I see a woman in a niqab, following her husband and a boat load of kids in tow, I wonder where her rights are, because in 'my' society in England or France, she should have them.

I really do not care what colour any one's skin is, there are far more important things in the way that people can look at 'living' that are far more important to me. This from, as wooly said, a white uncircumsized english person.

Over the years I have known people from all over the place living in France and in England. And that is why I drone on about some sort of integration, as deep down, I feel that anyone chosing to live in another society, IMO owes it to that society to try and fit in, even awkwardly fit in.

So anyone who doesn't want our hard fought for western values, simply don't come, do what has been done here in the past. Fight and risk your life for your beliefs in your own country.  And IF anyone could offer a good alternative to our 'values', then fair enough, but the only ones I see being bandied about and to some extent being imposed are from that period we call the dark ages and as a woman, that cannot happen again.

And now to the crux of things. And maybe I was in France too long, but the feeling of employing one's own first feels right to me. eg How can a couple of my friends daughters having got their nursing degrees have trouble finding employment, when I can go to the hospital and be faced with a young nurse who I can hardly understand, and I have a half decent ear for pidgin english. How has this happened, the nurse at the hospital was very nice and pleasant, and helpful as she could be, but who decided on employing her over a native???? I do not understand it. Incidentally in France the job was not costing any french person employment, quite the reverse.

I keep editing this and editing, but this is more or less what I want to say and how I feel about things.


[/quote]

Life is strange really, I read this post when I popped in from the garden for a cup of tea and a break from gardening. The tele was on and up popped an advert for a charity that wanted money to help them stop arranged marriages in other countries. I was wondering what right this charity has to interfere with the custom and practices in other countries. I wonder how British people would react to TV charity adverts in other countries, say Muslim for instance, for money to help convert 'western' countries to Muslim customs and practices?

[NormanH]

Well this lot are trying to do their bit to fit in:

http://www.midilibre.fr/2013/03/02/plus-de-140-turcs-ont-donne-leur-sang,653279.php

[NormanH]

Well this lot are trying to do their bit to fit in:

http://www.midilibre.fr/2013/03/02/plus-de-140-turcs-ont-donne-leur-sang,653279.php

[ebaynut]

Russethouse wrote,

A lady on QT explained how she and her brother were born in London but her brother has chosen to move out first to the suburbs and then to the countryside because he preferred that way of life. The lady was Diane Abbot !

---

Would that be the same Diana Abbot who is the brunt of 1000 jokes by Andrew Neil on This Week??

Its just that one doesn't often see the words Diana Abbot and lady in the same sentence.

[Russethouse]

The point is that the movement of people from city centres to the countryside is sometimes called 'white flight' where as Diane Abbot said that is more a class thing...people become more affluent and decide to move to the suburbs, or countryside, that includes immigrants too.

You may not think much of Diane Abbot, you are entitled to your opinion. I couldn't possibly comment.

[ebaynut]

Q wrote,

 

UKIP is an insult to all those that fought for freedom of Europe in WW2. Wooly there is no point in trying to explain to fascists, they never change their spots.

---

 

Hold on a minute, "fighting for the freedom of Europe in WW2". Remember if it had not been for the UK there would be no freedom in Europe, unless you speak German.

My father fought that war, my uncle was on the D day landing. They did not fight and risk their lives to free "your lot" from what the Germans were doing to them, they risked their lives to keep this country free of invaders, who if they had reached the UK would have done the same to the British as they had the people in mainland Europe.

Believe me, saving "your lots" arse was not what they went for, freeing Europe was not what they went for, keeping their families and homes safe is what they went for.

So, if ANYONE wishes to vote UKIP or BNP it is their right, we the British people have earned that right, its not for someone who is not  British, or even lives in the UK to call them fascists.

11000+ people in Eastleigh cant be wrong.  [:D]

[Hoddy]

I think that Idun has a point. Earlier this week a delivery man called at my door asking if I would take a parcel in for my neighbours. He communicated mostly by waving his hands about and showing me the label because, in addition to very poor English, he had quite a bad speech impediment.

Saying that the locals don't want work and so on simply won't wash. Just eighteen miles from here a couple of weeks ago 1,700 people applied for 8 jobs at the new Costa shop.

There must be many people who are as puzzled as I am.

Hoddy

[Rabbie]

[quote user="ebaynut"]

11000+ people in Eastleigh cant be wrong.  [:D]

[/quote]I take it you mean the ones who voted Lib Dem[:D]. Lots of Germans voted for Hitler in 1933. Were they right?

Most analyses of the voting in Eastleigh suggests a significant number of people voting UKIP were registering a protest against the the three main parties. As Nigel Farage said there is little difference between these parties.

[Quillan]

Exacly Rabbie and sadly Farage is right about the mergence of policies and parties but voting for something or somebody who's answer to everything that is wrong seems to involve immigrants and the EU is not such a good idea. As the saying goes "be careful for what you wish for".

Two articles today that caught my eye. In the Daily Wail, the paper that campaigns to get the UK out of the ECHR, has pronounced that after listening to their readers Theresa May will be drawing up plans for the UK to leave it or at least give the British justice system the override on its decisions.

The ECHR was founded after WW2 to protect the human rights of all those living in Europe to ensure that nothing like the 'final solution' never happens again. If the UK leaves then who will ensure the human rights of British subjects are looked after. We only hear some of the more strange rulings they give but there are many other rulings that people win on a more personal and individual level where British subjects having been persecuted in the UK and have appealed to the ECHR. Basically they police the European countries justice system and protect the individual when his or her state has let them down. Already we have seen several 'secret' trials in the UK and once the protection of the ECHR has been removed I can only see these becoming more frequent. Europe may be a better and different place today if the ECHR was created after WW1.

The other thing I saw was possibly in the Guardian about 170,000 Romanians already in the UK out of the 250,000 that have arrived are working and paying in to the system. Lets be logical about these numbers, that's 250,000 people which includes children and none working wives of those that came and found work. Now to my mind these 170,000 who are already in the UK working would not have come if there was no work. So again I ask the question, why were not these jobs taken by British unemployed?

[Hoddy]

Q wrote "So again I ask the question, why were not these jobs taken by British unemployed?

That was the same point I was making a few posts ago Quillan. I simply don't believe that all the 1700 job applicants I mentioned were Romanians or any other kind of immigrant come to that.

Something, somehow doesn't make sense. I know that all sorts of people manipulate or even invent figures, but I can't make any sense of what is going on.

Hoddy

[Quillan]

I would think Hoddy that it may have been something to do with what they saw as 'easy work' plus probably minimum wage which means they can keep some of their benefits. Alternatively they can say "I even tried for a job in a coffee shop and they turned me down". Of course it also looks good for some political end somewhere.

I believe it is because we now have 'institutionalise unemployed', those who come from a generation of unemployed who in turn came from a generation of unemployed that have never worked and they don't intend to either, we now have third and forth generation unemployed. I remember an interview some years back now where a reported approached some youths outside one of these open all hours supermarkets and were drinking extra strong lager. They said they had no choice because there was no work and nothing to do. The guy offered them some work that would pay double the hourly rate than being on the dole. They were "well up for it" until the guy told them it was picking veg. Their response was that it was too much hard with long hours and anyway they didn't want to do 'immigrants work'.

What about the terrible deaths of those Chinese years back now who were cockle picking and got drowned. The old 'British' cockle pickers couldn't be bothered anymore and now I see on Country File that it is classed as an almost dead business and the UK imports them now.

The difference is the work ethic of these immigrants, any job will do even if it is deemed to be below them as it puts money on the table, feeds you and puts a roof over your head. My neighbours daughters did exactly that when they went to the UK, worked in bars and restaurants whilst looking for a job better suited to their skillset and to perfect their English. They are both now managers at Amex in Brighton and earn much more than they could have dreamed of in France.

Tour delivery chap who couldn't speak English. He probably uses a GPS and has it set to his native language. He doesn't even need to speak to anyone really, just dump the box and hold out the receipt for signature. Petrol stations are doddle, he just hands over his plastic.

I don't know if anyone can come up with other ideas but thats the best I can do for the moment.

[YCCMB]

If you can, have a listen to this. Someone posted this link on Facebook about a week ago.

[url]http://audioboo.fm/boos/1227731-man-sacked-for-being-late-for-work-why-won-t-they-give-me-a-chance[/url]

[Hoddy]

I think the difference between you and I Q is how much we believe in these 'generations of people who have never worked". I know that there are some but I don't think there are as many as you do.

I would have thought that quite a large proportion of the 1700 people who applied for the Costa jobs were people who had lost their jobs with the closure of so many high street stores. Comet and Jessops are two examples which spring to mind. I really dislike the condemnation of the unemployed which suggests that they are all feckless layabouts.

Hoddy

[Quillan]

Have you listened to the link that Betty gave?

There are many jobless people in what others call deprived areas where is where there is no work because industry has closed. I accept this and that in the event of a job becoming available there will be many, even thousands of applicants. Not every unemployed person does not want to work but there is a small proportion of the unemployed that has no interest in ever working. It is a bit like those who claim disability allowance. Many of them are truly disabled and can't work but there are the few that cheat, ever watched "Saints and Scroungers"? Problem is that in the eyes of some uncaring people nearly all the disabled are cheating the system when clearly this is not true.

My problem is that there is loads of jobs around if you go looking for them. Perhaps not enough to give a job to every unemployed person. I was looking at the link I think that Betty gave to a newspaper for the financial sector and then moved to the employment section, there must have been a couple of hundred jobs there covering many job skills from manual jobs like post room upwards. Likewise have a look on some of the job websites some of which have thousands of jobs at different levels all over the UK. The NHS apparently is always looking for people. So yet again I ask the question why so many jobs and so many unemployed? If my suggestions are not correct then help me out and point me towards the reason why, I am keen to learn.

[NormanH]

One problem is that jobs are not necessarily in places where people can afford to live, and they are often on such short -term contracts or  on a casual basis so no-one can afford the expense and upheaval of a move for something which may not last.

Manual jobs in London do not pay enough to compensate for the impossibly high rents. I remember seeing a programme a while back about the difficulty faced by a bus driver who couldn't afford to live any where near the depot but who was supposed to drive the first bus in the morning.

Similarly a young single may be able to live in a shared house for  a while, but this doesn't work for a family.

I suggest you look at detail. Are these jobs well-enough paid  and sufficiently stable (say at least 6 months) for people to move?

This is only one factor of course, but I am waiting for the media attention from the Tory press on the difficulties faced by the unemployed.

Of course this doesn't worry Cameron and his  ilk. He has inherited wealth based on money hidden in offshore accounts and slave trading in his family's past, none of which he has ever had to work for.

Gideon Osborne has never held down a proper job....

[NickP]

Q the reason that the Chinese took over the cockle picking wasn't that the British didn't want the job, the reason was that the Chinese gang masters undercut the wages and brought in cheap labour. On the Farms the same gang master system is now working with eastern Europeans. So lots of unemployment is due to greedy bosses, not just idle Brits. OK there are some idle people but not all are guilty. So if possible a little less generalisation and less anecdotal stories that you remember but forget where from? Apart from the Daily Mail and Saints & Scroungers. ( says a lot about how you spend your spare time. [:D])

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]

Q the reason that the Chinese took over the cockle picking wasn't that the British didn't want the job, the reason was that the Chinese gang masters undercut the wages and brought in cheap labour. On the Farms the same gang master system is now working with eastern Europeans. So lots of unemployment is due to greedy bosses, not just idle Brits. OK there are some idle people but not all are guilty. So if possible a little less generalisation and less anecdotal stories that you remember but forget where from? Apart from the Daily Mail and Saints & Scroungers. ( says a lot about how you spend your spare time. [:D])

[/quote]

What about greedy employees? I suspect they don't exist, they all died with British Layland?

I have not emplied that all are guilty, I have actually said so more than once but some are. The British didn't want the job for the money offered and the hours worked. People do not have the right to hold employers to ransom. If an employer can't find the right staff locally for the right price they look somewhere else. If the money offered was that bad then nobody would work for them. Companies are not charities they are there to make money for the owners and shareholders.

 

[Hoddy]

“Have you listened to the link that Betty gave?”

Yes, I have. That is one person.

I have never watched Saints & Scroungers.

“My problem is that there is loads of jobs around if you go looking for them.”

Do you have any evidence to support this statement ?

Hoddy

[Rabbie]

Just a few thoughts based on personal experience and not on hearsay.

When I was unemployed about 20 years ago I found it extremely stressing to continually read in the press about the shortage of computer programmers and how we needed to train up more. As I was an unemployed programmer with 25+ years experience then it was very depressing to send off 4 or 5 applications every week and never get even an interview. They were all jobs I was qualified for and had the relevat experience. I was not making any demands over salary and was prepared to accept the advertised rate.  Finally persistance did pay off and I was back in the job market. After that I had no problem in finding work till I retired. It seems that some employers are reluctant to consider employing people who are between jobs.

I also know one person - the brother of an employee - who has lived on benefit all his adult life. He has 6 children and  two council houses converted into one. He finds it easier not to work regulaly as he would just loose benefit if he did. He does work off the record when he needs extra money. So these people do exist as well

[idun]

My youngest son is job hunting at the moment. Yes, boat loads of jobs out there, but the majority need some sort of 'qualification', even for the most menial of jobs, just another stupid stupid days course costing hundreds of £'s. And the job centre will say pay for one course, but when the job details are all there, one needs several of these nonsensical bits of paper to apply.

No one has thought it all out, at all. And the people working at the job centres are as much use a chocolate fireguards and have been in our town for manys a year.