NormanH Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 What ever one's view over Syria I feel that last night's refusal by Parliament to rubber-stamp a Prime Minister's plans shows the UK system at its best.I wonder if the French or American Presidents could be held to account so effectively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulT Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Shame about the kiddies though:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23892594 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre ZFP Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I agree. I think the shadow left by Blair over Iraq still looms large at Westminster.My thought is, even if military action was sanctioned, what could you do? A full scale invasion is hardly possible even if the will was there and what would that or anything less achive? It would end up in yet another mess like Iraq where half the population is against you anyway. Drone 'surgical strikes' (whatever that means) are no better - who or what is your target? Blow up a few office blocks and claim they are terrorist HQ? Ah, wait a minute, it's not terrorists but the actual government in power that has used chemical and incendary weapons no? I'm confused! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Unfortunately France is like America and does not have to get any form of approval from its parliament (or so I read in todays French newspapers). Interesting to read the readers comments in the French papers today, they seem to quite like us after this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 The curious thing is that Blair is the Middle East Peace Envoy???? isn't he?????Re this,well, this feels little Chamberlain like at the moment to be honest. Assad has been a rather naughty boy, but we'll not really do anything.Why aren't China and Russia doing something concrete, AND the Arab League should have been straight in there??????? Shameful the lot of them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickP Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="Pierre ZFP"] Ah, wait a minute, it's not terrorists but the actual government in power that has used chemical and incendary weapons no? I'm confused![/quote] Are you sure about that? I'm not surprised your confused everybody is. Still as Norman said it's nice to see democracy at it's best, a rare event, but will it last; or will the disgusting Whip system come back into full use? Personally I think that this was a very clever Cameron manoeuvre, and he got the result he wanted. [I] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="idun"]The curious thing is that Blair is the Middle East Peace Envoy???? isn't he?????[/quote]Yes and when all this kicked off he was photographed having just landed in a private helicopter to go aboard his rented super yacht with 'her in doors' for a cruise round the Med or wherever, obviously a very dedicated chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 For once, Norman, I do agree with you.As regards Blair and the yacht, one of the owners was a Middle Eastern chap, and it did cross my mind that he might be meeting movers and shakers on the boats. Seems too kind to him really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="woolybanana"]For once, Norman, I do agree with you. As regards Blair and the yacht, one of the owners was a Middle Eastern chap, and it did cross my mind that he might be meeting movers and shakers on the boats. Seems too kind to him really.[/quote] What kind of moving and shaking do you have in mind?[:-))] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 If I have to draw on 'history', pity Blair cannot have a Maxwell moment during his sailing trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprogster Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Meanwhile, President Hollande has said the UK vote will not deter France from military intervention. Who would have thought that the UK would become the cheese eating surrender monkey and France the US poodle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="NormanH"]What ever one's view over Syria I feel that last night's refusal by Parliament to rubber-stamp a Prime Minister's plans shows the UK system at its best.I wonder if the French or American Presidents could be held to account so effectively?[/quote]I think so. There's been talk of impeaching Obama for last years debacle in Benghazi amongst other things. Trouble is the fear of Biden taking over is too great to go through with it. There's supposed to be a three way balance of power between the executive branch, legislative branch and judicial branch so that noone is in complete power, so yes, the American president can be held to account effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkkent Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Am I alone in being concerned that the victory of opposition forces in Syria may not be a particularly good thing? Like everyone else I am shocked, appalled, horrified, sickened by the actions of the Assad regime. What I'm not so certain about, though, are the agenda and objectives of the anti-government forces. My fear is that they may be pan-Islamists and that their victory would strengthen Iran. The actions of the previous American president, by removing Saddam, reduced the strength of the buffer against Iran. The removal of the Assad regime may only make a nuclear war between Iran and Israel more likely.Unlike his predecessor, Obama is not an idiot, but he also has to act inside a national culture that often, to an outsider, appears to be politically naïve and simplistic. To appear credible to his electorate he has to be bellicose and USA-centric. He may not now need to seek re-election, but he has to deal with members of the legislature who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="Clarkkent"]Am I alone in being concerned that the victory of opposition forces in Syria may not be a particularly good thing? [/quote]No, I completely agree with you. Unpleasant though the Assad regime is there is no guarantee that any successor regime would be any better and might even be worse. The Assad regime does not present any threat to the UK or France but a Jihadist Muslim regime might be a real threat to Western Europe. I have read on the internet and in the press that the fall of the Assad regime might well trigger a full scale war in the Middle East which would have serious economic consequences to Western Europe if only because oil prices would increase dramtically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I think Bush gets a rough ride. He said a lot of dumb things, but I've heard a lot of dumb things Obama has said too.Bush was the right man at the time for what happened in 9/11. Obama isn't a strong military leader and would have been left floundering in comparison. Which is one reason the US shouldn't go into Syria now. A bit like Churchill back in WW2, great when the chips are down, and for fighting a war, but not so in more peaceful times. I don't particularly think Obama is a great president on the whole to be honest, but I really think it will take something special to change things over here now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarkkent Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Bush was the right man at the time for what happened in 9/11. [/quote]I couldn't agree less. His actions exacerbated the problems associated with and following 9/11. They may have played well within the Union but they made the rest of the world a more hazardous place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]I think Bush gets a rough ride. He said a lot of dumb things, but I've heard a lot of dumb things Obama has said too.[/quote]The "red line" speech for example. I bet he wishes he'd kept his mouth shut."Kerry says our oldest ally, the French. Deliberate dig at UK? " (BBC)Well monsieur Kerry may not realise how hard that may hit home. Hope he doesn't have any skeletons in his cupboard.......Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 [quote user="SC"][quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]I think Bush gets a rough ride. He said a lot of dumb things, but I've heard a lot of dumb things Obama has said too.[/quote]The "red line" speech for example. I bet he wishes he'd kept his mouth shut."Kerry says our oldest ally, the French. Deliberate dig at UK? " (BBC)Well monsieur Kerry may not realise how hard that may hit home. Hope he doesn't have any skeletons in his cupboard.......Steve[/quote]Of course Kerry was correct. France supported the american colonists during the war of independence and supported the US during the Naval War of 1812. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 I thought it was Obama who incorrectly said France was its closest ally.No one really cares though, it's just diplomatic talk and changes nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ceour de Lion II Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 [quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Bush was the right man at the time for what happened in 9/11. [/quote]I couldn't agree less. His actions exacerbated the problems associated with and following 9/11. They may have played well within the Union but they made the rest of the world a more hazardous place.[/quote]He was protecting his country. Which is his primary function.He lad the way to eliminating Bin Laden. He also eliminated the threat of Saddam Hussein.What do you think the US was going to do? Sit back and do nothing?I think that's why the rest of the world is happy Obama is in because it makes the USA weaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 [quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"][quote user="Clarkkent"][quote user="Mr Ceour de Lion II"]Bush was the right man at the time for what happened in 9/11. [/quote]I couldn't agree less. His actions exacerbated the problems associated with and following 9/11. They may have played well within the Union but they made the rest of the world a more hazardous place.[/quote]He was protecting his country. Which is his primary function.He lad the way to eliminating Bin Laden. He also eliminated the threat of Saddam Hussein.What do you think the US was going to do? Sit back and do nothing?I think that's why the rest of the world is happy Obama is in because it makes the USA weaker.[/quote]All recent American Presidents have done exactly that (sit back and do nothing) while their countrymen give money to support a bunch of criminals who during that time have killed more than those in the twin towers namely the IRA.What threat exactly was Sadam to America by the way because in the end it turned out to be none and a pack of lies told by America which got the UK involved in another illegal war.What gives America the right to fly drones over Pakistan, another countries sovereign airspace? Now that the UK is not bending to the will of the great aggressor will we be next? If we don't hand over people America wants will they be using drones over the UK? Using them in the Pakistan and the Middle East without UN permission sets the standard. Innocent women and children get killed by these things. If everyone in the world took the same action as America over 9/11 there wouldn't be much of it left.Still while Americans turn their head to this it is turned away from the fact that within the next couple of weeks it hits its overdraft limit and then it will be skint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 If Pakistan were to deal with these known terrorists itself or arrest them and hand them over to the Americans, then there would be no need for drones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 So if any other country refuses to arrest people that America calls terrorists, even though they may never have been to America, and hand them over to the Americans to be tortured then the Americans are allowed to use drones in the country they are in and if they kill or injure innocent men, women and children along the way thats OK. Well in my eyes that is no different to the gassing in Syria (whoever did it it). Come on Wooly you know that argument does not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 If there is to be a world policeman surely it should under the auspices of the UN and not some self appointed country. The US rightly condemned Japan for its attack on Pearl Harbour without a declaration of war. But the US has recently made many such attacks on other countries. A touch of hypocrisy perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted August 31, 2013 Share Posted August 31, 2013 Exactly Rabbie and from our side of the pond the EU with regards to its members.How strange it is when you look back to 1979/80 when Russia invaded Afghanistan and what the American President (Jimmy Carter) said about countries going round 'invading' others. Seems to me that it is OK for America to do this but not other countries. His speech is quite interesting and enlightening.http://millercenter.org/president/speeches/detail/3403 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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