Scottish Independence

[Quillan]

So whats this 'postal vote' all about then?

[Rabbie]

[quote user="Quillan"]So whats this 'postal vote' all about then?[/quote]Quite simple really. People who may not be able to get to the polling station can have their ballot paper posted to them. They then put an X in the appropriate place, fill in other paper work and post it back to the authorities. There are procedures in place to preserve the secretness of the vote.

While postal voting has been allowed in the UK for many years it is becoming increasingly popular.

By all reports many postal votes have already been returned in Scotland

[Quillan]

So how comes my BIL in Spain is telling me that Scots there are getting postal votes or are they playing the old "It may look like I live in Spain most of the year but I really live in Scotland" trick?

It's giving 16 year olds the vote and  the 'pro independance' teachers putting in their two penneth that worries me.

[Pommier]

[quote user="Quillan"]are they playing the old "It may look like I live in Spain most of the year but I really live in Scotland" trick?

[/quote] That's the one. On the radio they talk of 'Scottish people' making the decision, but it's not; it's Scottish residents who are on the electoral register (who may be of any nationality)

[Quillan]

Nice to know its not just the Brits in France that 'fiddle' their country of residence. [;-)]

[woolybanana]

Mr Salmond has the support of Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong Il. Well, if you are the company you keep, it just about sums up what Salmond is about.

Given Putin offered his support some time ago, might one assume he was also funding the campaign?

[NormanH]

So that Britain would lose its place in the UN Security Council you think?

[AnOther]

[quote user="Pommier"]they talk of 'Scottish people' making the decision, but it's not; it's Scottish residents who are on the electoral register (who may be of any nationality)[/quote]Any guesses as to the proportion of the electorate they represent and why they would even bother to vote one way or the other ?

[mint]

[quote user="AnOther"][quote user="Pommier"]they talk of 'Scottish people' making the decision, but it's not; it's Scottish residents who are on the electoral register (who may be of any nationality)[/quote]Any guesses as to the proportion of the electorate they represent and why they would even bother to vote one way or the other ?

[/quote]

Apparently there are significant numbers of Germans who are purportedly going to be "no" voters but I have seen blue banners saying "ja" and something like 4000 French who get the vote.

If the contest is really tight, then I guess every vote could indeed count.

OTOH, it is absolutely certain that whichever camp wins, about half the people are going to be seriously p i s s e d off and ALL of them will just be seriously p i s s e d?

[NormanH]

It does seem bizzare that on a matter which affects the Constitution of the UK non-nationals are allowed a vote when UK nationals who don't happen to live in Scotland aren't.

[Redredwine]

[quote user="NormanH"]It does seem bizzare that on a matter which affects the Constitution of the UK non-nationals are allowed a vote when UK nationals who don't happen to live in Scotland aren't.

[/quote]

As the UK does not have a constitution it is not in the slightest bizarre. However, what is bizarre is that  people who were born in Scotland and, who worked in Scotland, and spent most of their life in Scotland are not allowed to vote simply because they no longer live there. 

[EuroTrash]

"what is bizarre is that people who were born in Scotland and, who worked in Scotland, and spent most of their life in Scotland are not allowed to vote simply because they no longer live there."

I don't actually find that bizarre. It's the people who live there, who will be affected by the consequences of the decision, so they're less likely to let their hearts rule their heads. Ex-Scots who have moved away to live in other countries have no financial stake in the country so they could vote 'Yes' because they love the idea of an independent Scotland, but if 'Yes' goes belly up, they won't lose out materially. Independence or bust is a grand gesture as long as you wouldn't be the one going bust.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Redredwine"][quote user="NormanH"]It does seem bizzare that on a matter which affects the Constitution of the UK non-nationals are allowed a vote when UK nationals who don't happen to live in Scotland aren't.

[/quote]

As the UK does not have a constitution it is not in the slightest bizarre. However, what is bizarre is that  people who were born in Scotland and, who worked in Scotland, and spent most of their life in Scotland are not allowed to vote simply because they no longer live there. 

[/quote]

For a somewhat more nuanced view see: http://ojls.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/1/137.extract  and following, unless you prefer De Tocqueville's point of view..

In any case this referendum might be said to have the potential to provoke a 'constitutional' crisis.

If my memory serves George Vth wasn't very happy to sign Government of Ireland Act 1914

[YCCMB]

[quote user="EuroTrash"] Ex-Scots who have moved away to live in other countries have no financial stake in the country so they could vote 'Yes' because they love the idea of an independent Scotland, but if 'Yes' goes belly up, they won't lose out materially. Independence or bust is a grand gesture as long as you wouldn't be the one going bust.[/quote]

Hang on....just like the old chestnut about "expats" in France, I suspect that there are an awful lot of Scots abroad who absolutely DO have a financial stake in the country. In fact I have a number of Scots friends for whom that is certainly the case. They could well lose out materially if the currency question isn't resolved satisfactorily.

Just been watching on the news some students at university in Scotland. They will all be entitled to vote, yet a fair few are purely passing through Scotland for a three or four year stint at University. OK, there may not be thousands of them, but giving the vote to someone who is just in Scotland for a few years of studying? Seems bonkers to me, just like all the expats of many different nationalities, many of whom probably haven't made it their home for life.

[PaulT]

Wow Betty, a logistical nightmare trying to tack down the ex pat from Scotland now living in.....Bongo Bongo Land to inform them about the vote, how to register and making arrangements for them to vote.

I wonder how those Brits who have relocated to France would feel if there was to be a vote on something that could potentially have a profound effect on their live and were told 'you do not have a vote as you are not a born French resident'.

[NormanH]

I wonder how those Brits who have relocated to France would feel if

there was to be a vote on something that could potentially have a

profound effect on their live and were told 'you do not have a vote as

you are not a born French resident'.

I for one have no vote either in France or the UK, apart from on local issues, although I could remedy this by taking French nationality.

Apparently for British nationals the notion of 'nationality' does not include the permanent right to vote.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="PaulT"]Wow Betty, a logistical nightmare trying to tack down the ex pat from Scotland now living in.....Bongo Bongo Land to inform them about the vote, how to register and making arrangements for them to vote.

I wonder how those Brits who have relocated to France would feel if there was to be a vote on something that could potentially have a profound effect on their live and were told 'you do not have a vote as you are not a born French resident'.[/quote]

Of course it's a logistical nightmare, and nevertheless one that was challenged right, left and centre (and I don't mean that in any political sense). However, I doubt it would have been any sort of logistical nightmare to withhold voting rights from non-Scots nationals living in Scotland. It's what usually happens in elections, after all. We don't suddenly let all the Japanese or Russians or Indians dotted about the place have a say, do we?

In France alone, I suspect there'll be a few thousand Scots who, in the event of a yes vote, will suddenly find themselves in need of a passport, for example. In another bonkers pronouncement, I am given to understand, Scotland appears to believe that it will be able to piggy back on the embassy and consular services of the UK. So, a bit like a sort of celtic Julian Assange, they think they'll be able to camp in a spare room in any British Consulate and run their overseas affairs. As if it's quite a normal state of affairs to have a foreign power camping in your overseas offices and having access to all that goes on there. But if England says no, probably Alex Salmond will have another hissy fit and start screaming "bully", which has proved to be the only word in his vocabulary to rebut any criticism of the glaring chasms in his "vision" for which he has made no provision nor has any explanation. Meanwhile, Scots who live abroad and travelled abroad on a valid UK passport will be left wondering how on earth they're supposed to rectify the situation. Perhaps like the Calais situation, we'll find droves of stateless former Scots massing at the channel ports?

[idun]

NH, we were lucky, of our 27 years we could vote in the UK elections for 20 of those. Over the years the rules changed and we were able to vote in the french local elections and EU elections..... and we did. I always said that IF I wanted to vote in french national and regional elections, then I would have considered becoming french.

HOWEVER, no one makes us leave our homeland, and when we decide to remain 'abroad', that is a choice about where we want to live. Surely part of the reason for the choices must be based on what the 'rules' are for expatriots and how these rules will affect our lives when living overseas.

You know what to do if you want to vote in the UK, move back. Personally I don't mind the current rules. They are what they are and none of us are truly exiled in France or elsewhere. To my thinking you are not really disenfranchised, you are chosing to live where you cannot vote, as are the scots who do not live in Scotland.

[mint]

[quote user="Redredwine"][quote user="NormanH"]It does seem bizzare that on a matter which affects the Constitution of the UK non-nationals are allowed a vote when UK nationals who don't happen to live in Scotland aren't.

[/quote]

As the UK does not have a constitution it is not in the slightest bizarre. However, what is bizarre is that  people who were born in Scotland and, who worked in Scotland, and spent most of their life in Scotland are not allowed to vote simply because they no longer live there. 

[/quote]

That is not strictly true, there is a constitution but not a WRITTEN constitution.

For the definitive explanation try Walter Bagehot's "The English Constitution" and for English read British:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Constitution

Sorry, I can't find the "insert" tab to put an active link.

I have visited his grave in Somerset.  I think it was in a town called Langport.

[Rabbie]

Just to clarify.

The following groups of people can register to vote in the referendum:

•British citizens resident in Scotland.

•Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland. This means Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are resident in Scotland.

•Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.

•Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.

•Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

Hope that makes it clear.

Personally I agree that only Scottish residents should be allowed to vote.

[woolybanana]

Can pine processionary caterpillars vote? Seems logical as they are Scots if they live in Scotland

[Quillan]

It does seem rather odd to me that people are being asked to vote on something that they don't know anything about. Scotland will vote for independence but the terms of that independence will be negotiated after the vote. I would have thought they should have negotiated the terms then present it to the people then ask them to vote on it.

[powerdesal]

Q, you really can't expect logical thought to apply to politicians.

[Rabbie]

Q, just another symptom of London arrogance. At the time the agreement was reached the Yes side had only 30% in the opinion polls. Also the reason why the Devo-max option was omitted.

I have always felt the final negotiated terms should be endorsed by the Scottish people before independence is granted

[Quillan]

Don't know about just Westminster arrogance there is quite a bit of that on both sides, just as there is in telling porkies. I particularly liked the bit on the Andrew Marr show where Salmond said Scotland would be a full member of the EU within 18 months of a Yes vote, in his dreams perhaps. He further went on to say that the EU would be stupid to not allow them to stay in (he says, in another breath, that Scotland is already a member) because Scotland is the best country in Europe. He rattled off some names of 'ex' EU leaders who he said had told him  Scotlands 'continuance' as a member would not be a problem even though the current Presidents of both the council and commission have said Scotland would need to apply for membership in the same way as any other country. I am more inclined to believe them than I am a group of retired 'has beens' who in reality can only give an opinion rather than a fact.

Picking on Westminster as being corrupt (now theres a thing [;-)] ) and mentioning the expenses scandal as an example he failed to mention that there were at least ten Scottish MP's that I can name from the newspapers (including at least one SNP member) who were also caught up in the scandal. In other words the English do not have the monopoly on bad and corrupt politicians. Indeed the UK as a whole does not have the monopoly either.