Scottish Independence

[Redredwine]

[quote user="EuroTrash"]"what is bizarre is that people who were born in Scotland and, who worked in Scotland, and spent most of their life in Scotland are not allowed to vote simply because they no longer live there."

I don't actually find that bizarre. It's the people who live there, who will be affected by the consequences of the decision, so they're less likely to let their hearts rule their heads. Ex-Scots who have moved away to live in other countries have no financial stake in the country so they could vote 'Yes' because they love the idea of an independent Scotland, but if 'Yes' goes belly up, they won't lose out materially. Independence or bust is a grand gesture as long as you wouldn't be the one going bust.[/quote]

I ,for one, have financial ties to Scotland. My pension is paid by a Scottish Company and ,I assume, I will have to pay Scottish income tax on any income from Scotland so I will be affected. 

[YCCMB]

It always makes me laugh when the Scots go on about London arrogance, or "London-centric" stuff. I wonder if anyone knows what percentage of the population of London was actually born there, or indeed how many Scots reside in London? Let's face it, almost 13% of the UK's entire population actually live in London, versus less than 9% in the whole of Scotland... And don't tell me it's a chicken and egg scenario. If Scots want to make Scotland such a great place (or indeed, if they believe it already is) then why have they been leaving the place in droves over the years? After all, the pro-independence lobby would have us believe that Scotland is just bursting with stifled entrepreneurs and go-getters who have been held back by being part of the UK. Jeez, some entrepreneurs they must be if they can't manage to get anything off the ground without waiting for Scottish independence.

[Gardian]

I just checked on the websites of two of the major bookmakers.

Both make a "No" vote as 4-1 on, "Yes" 11-4 against.  That is to say (for any non-betting readers!) that you would have to lay out £4 to win £1 on a "No" bet and that they regard it as pretty certain.

The bookies don't often get it wrong, but we'll see.  

[Quillan]

[quote user="Gardian"]

I just checked on the websites of two of the major bookmakers.

Both make a "No" vote as 4-1 on, "Yes" 11-4 against.  That is to say (for any non-betting readers!) that you would have to lay out £4 to win £1 on a "No" bet and that they regard it as pretty certain.

The bookies don't often get it wrong, but we'll see.  

[/quote]

A man after my own heart, it's the place I check for many things to see what people really think although I last placed a bet in 1973.

[Redredwine]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]. If Scots want to make Scotland such a great place (or indeed, if they believe it already is) then why have they been leaving the place in droves over the years? After all, the pro-independence lobby would have us believe that Scotland is just bursting with stifled entrepreneurs and go-getters who have been held back by being part of the UK. Jeez, some entrepreneurs they must be if they can't manage to get anything off the ground without waiting for Scottish independence.

[/quote]

On the other hand why have millions of English left England over the years? ,Is it a different reason or just the same reason. Your logic is nonsense ,Betty.

[YCCMB]

Really? And remind me, which of those two nations is bleating about independence? It's just like all the Brits (of whatever national origin) who sod off to France, etc., bleating about how England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland is going to the dogs, so they're off. Because they don't care enough to stay and try to influence change...or even worse, they leave, vote from their new nirvana and influence change but never have to live with the consequences.

I'm increasingly finding that I need look no further than the venerable Mr Salmond and his followers for nonsense logic. :-)

On a separate note, I just read this.

[url]http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/[/url]

[NormanH]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Really? And remind me, which of those two nations is bleating about independence? It's just like all the Brits (of whatever national origin) who sod off to France, etc., bleating about how England/Scotland/Wales/Northern Ireland is going to the dogs, so they're off. Because they don't care enough to stay and try to influence change...or even worse, they leave, vote from their new nirvana and influence change but never have to live with the consequences.

I'm increasingly finding that I need look no further than the venerable Mr Salmond and his followers for nonsense logic. :-)

On a separate note, I just read this.

[url]http://wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/[/url]

[/quote]

Of course if one kept the vote (as in the majority of European countries except Denmark, Ireland, Cyprus, Malta and the United Kingdom)one could influence change from afar and perhaps return once that change had been accomplished.

The issue is being considered http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-77_en.htm

The right to vote is one of the fundamental

political rights of citizenship. It is part of the very fabric of

democracy. Depriving citizens of their right to vote once they move to

another EU country is effectively tantamount to punishing citizens for

having exercised their right to free movement. Such practices risk

making them second-class citizens,” said Vice-President Viviane Reding, the EU’s Justice Commissioner.

There is no ipso facto reason to say that one has to be on the spot to influence things.

I certainly regarded myself as a political exile from Tory misrule when I

emigrated to France and NuLabour was no appreciable change

[Rabbie]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]It always makes me laugh when the Scots go on about London arrogance, or "London-centric" stuff. I wonder if anyone knows what percentage of the population of London was actually born there, or indeed how many Scots reside in London? Let's face it, almost 13% of the UK's entire population actually live in London, versus less than 9% in the whole of Scotland... And don't tell me it's a chicken and egg scenario. If Scots want to make Scotland such a great place (or indeed, if they believe it already is) then why have they been leaving the place in droves over the years? After all, the pro-independence lobby would have us believe that Scotland is just bursting with stifled entrepreneurs and go-getters who have been held back by being part of the UK. Jeez, some entrepreneurs they must be if they can't manage to get anything off the ground without waiting for Scottish independence.
[/quote]Betty,Glad to have made you laugh but seriously you will find a lot of people living in the English regions complaining about Londoncentricity. Compared to many other first world countries London as the first city of the country is proportionately much larger than the second city. In most western countries the second city is about 50% of the size of the first city while London is 4 or 5 times bigger than any other city in the UK. Also too many of the government offices are London based and should be spread more evenly over the UK as a whole. As I have said previously much of the Yes campaign seems to be based on wishful thinking about what can be negotiated. Unfortunately the No campaign seemed to take victory for granted until very recently and much of what they are now offering seems to be ill-thought out and will, justifiably in my opinion, create ill feeling in the less prosperous regions of England. I believe that the deprived areas of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be treated the same. If as I hope there is a win for the No side then serious discussions have to take place to come up with a just solution for the whole of the UK. It shouldn't all be about Scotland - it must be about the whole country

[NormanH]

serious discussions have to take place to come up with a just solution

for the whole of the UK. It shouldn't all be about Scotland - it must be

about the whole country

Hear Hear

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rabbie"]I believe that the deprived areas of Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be treated the same. If as I hope there is a win for the No side then serious discussions have to take place to come up with a just solution for the whole of the UK. It shouldn't all be about Scotland - it must be about the whole country[/quote]

 

Spot on. I would like to think, probably naively so, that the three main parties in Westminster might breathe a sigh of relief when the No vote wins but the smallest of margins (which I think will be the case) and then start to think about all of the UK and realise that all is not well at grass root level. Then perhaps they might start to do something about addressing all these issues across the country as a whole. One can dream I suppose.

[PaulT]

Of course, the problem with opinion polls is that whilst people may say the way they would vote when asked face to face or by telephone some will decide I will not go and actually vote on the day because:

football on the 'telly'

that film / programme on the 'telly'

it is raining

just don't feel like going out

etc

Those that do vote - how much will they actually know about the implications or will they vote on the propoganda or perhaps because Tom Higgins that actor said vote XXXX

Perhaps, there will be a YES vote it will stop Scottish MPs meddling in affairs that only affect England.

[AnOther]

It would not surprise me in the least to see violence erupt in the event of a 'no' vote.

[Redredwine]

[quote user="AnOther"]It would not surprise me in the least to see violence erupt in the event of a 'no' vote.

[/quote]

Nor would it surprise me to see violence erupt in England in the event of a "YES" vote.

[AnOther]

Why ?

[PaulT]

Echo Ernies 'why?'

Think most people in English are fed up with the grovelling and goodies being offered to Scotland.

Do hope that the utopia that Salmond paints comes true :)

Hope the EU is aware that it must do whatever Salmond wants.

[YCCMB]

OK, I live within spitting distance (if you have an Olympic Gold Medal for spitting) of London. We have the same NHS as the rest of the country (one of the things that Scots independence is apparently going to "save" for Scotland). The unemployed get the same levels of benefit as in the rest of the country, pensioners get the same pensions.... But I'd venture to suggest that a far greater percentage of the population pay higher band Council Tax, and certainly the majority of homeowners are paying more into the exchequer in stamp duty if they move house, and those unfortunates who shuffle off this mortal coil in Greater London are far more likely - if homeowners - to add a bit more to the exchequer in death duties than people elsewhere..whether they're cash-rich or not.

I've never had dealings with a tax office anywhere further south than Sunderland, although I've never worked anywhere further north than Aylesbury. My last passport came from Liverpool, all my car tax and registration stuff comes from Swansea, I watch TV from the BBC, now largely broadcast from Salford, if I get through to a UK call centre it's usually in the North East.

Greater London has 73 MP's, or just over 11% of the total seats in Parliament, representing just over 12% of the UK population. Leaving plenty of scope for the other 577 to get off their fat, oversubsidised derrieres and do something constructive for their own constituents and the rest of the country.

It's not exclusively the government or governance of the UK that's perpetuating this London-centric perception. If private sector companies can't be persuaded to locate elsewhere in the UK then it's not Westminster's meddling that's going to change anything.

During all the debate on Scots independence, a number of large banks and companies have indicated that they may have contingency plans to move south. I haven't heard of many (if any) companies suggesting that they will move to Scotland to take advantage of the new, free, all-singing, all-dancing independent Scotland. What I have heard, is a few companies saying that their prices may have to go up in Scotland to cover the additional costs of distribution caused by (potentially) having to set up a distribution network in a separate country. Evidence that those costs are currently being absorbed by those of us south of the border, and probably the lion's share by the most densely populated area: Greater London.

Whether we like it or not, the capital of the UK is, still, London. It's been that way since goodness knows when, and I doubt that it'll change anytime soon. I doubt the rest of the UK will see radical change in its fortunes if we all agree to move the seat of government to Skegness, but if everyone wants to give it a whirl, why not?

[mint]

Just to bring a touch of humour to the debate on here, I will repeat a comment I read on the internet today:

Go Scotland!  Oh no, wait, I meant "go, Scotland".

Don't get all huffy with me for not being passionate enough.  I have in fact been following events quite a bit.

It's at least got people talking and discussing and, hopefully, reflecting.  Now I do hope the Scottish people turn up in their numbers to vote.

[PaulT]

Betty mentions costs. Now the recently privatised Royal Mail by the 'Discounts R Us' government department still place a requirement on RM to deliver within the UK at the same price whereas private couriers normally charge more to the Highlands and Islands so will RM up their prices for sending to the Republic of Scotland?

Now, TV. Presumably, the independent companies will not be bothered about transmissions to Scotland as they are funded by advertisers - presumably the ads might change a little '£10 in the UK and !37 Scottish Salmonds'. But when it comes to public service broadcasters, i.e. the BBC will they want to broadcast freely to Scotland with no income from there. However, whichever company the owners of the programmes that are licensed for the UK may kick up merry hell if they are shown in another country, i.e. Salmondland. So there has been the spot beam to try to stop those in European countries receiving the signals will it now be a case of scramblers?

As for Bettys suggestion of moving Westminster to Skegness has not Skegness got enough troubles of its own.

Now, the one thing that would get up my nose if I lived in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland is when the UK is referred to as England.

[Quillan]

Actually there was something on the TV on Sunday about the Royal Mail. If memory serves Royal Mail SCotland loses £85m per year because of the distances involved in delivery. This is balanced out when you add it all together and Royal Mail shows a profit as a whole. There was talk that the cost of a stamp in Scotland would have to rise by about 15p.

As to TV with a bit of luck they might 'tilt' the satellites further south which I for one would benefit from.

As I said earlier it is a bit difficult to vote for something of which you don't really know in physical terms what you're voting for.

I would also like to know if all these 'goodies' being offered to the Scots from Westminster will also be offered to the rest of the UK (he says looking out the window and watching the fly pig pass by).

[YCCMB]

I suspect, Quillan, that anything being offered to Scotland will be in the spirit of "give them enough rope..."

If my suspicions are correct, than I just hope that there are also caveats built in, to ensure that if it all goes belly up, Scotland isn't going to be bailed out by rUK.

[Quillan]

Well the bookies today have moved in favour of a Yes vote 15/2.

[Quillan]

Just as a matter of interest what will happen to the Scottish currency now in circulation? I mean they have the Scotish Five Pound note for instance which is legal tender in England but if they decide to use the UK pound will their current currency become worthless after a set period?

[PaulT]

From the Bank of England website:

Are Scottish & Northern Ireland banknotes "legal tender"?

In short ‘No’ these banknotes are not "legal tender"; furthermore, Bank of England banknotes are only legal tender in England and Wales. Legal tender has, however, a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he/she owes under the terms of a contract (and in accordance with its terms), or pays this amount into court, he/she has good defence in law if he/she is sued for non-payment of the debt.

In ordinary everyday transactions, the term "legal tender" in its purest sense need not govern a banknote's acceptability in transactions. The acceptability of a Scottish or Northern Ireland banknote as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. If both parties are in agreement, Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes can be used in England and Wales. Holders of genuine Scottish and Northern Ireland banknotes are provided with a level of protection similar to that provided to holders of Bank of England banknotes. This is because the issuing banks must back their banknote issue using a combination of Bank of England banknotes, UK coin and funds in an interest bearing bank account at the Bank of England.

[idun]

Recently a shop tried to give me a scottish note in change and I refused to take it, I knew that it had never been legal tender, however it has been acceptable for businesses to accept them, but they should never reissue them.

IF I were scottish and living in Scotland, I would be dumping my scottish notes for real ones at the moment, well not quite 'dumping', rather 'exchanging' them.

[Rabbie]

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