Garages car repairs something to think about

[Frederick]

Recently had work done on the car .

This must happen to thousands every day ..

The job looked up on a computer. Customer told "computer say's 3 hours and shows what has to be done " .You are told cost of parts cost of labor at 3 hours plus vat is £XXX that's what its going to cost you .

You may then find your car is outside the garage after say one and a half hours waiting for you to turn up for it ... or after you get the car back you see the clock has stopped for no where near 3 hours .

Now imagine the mechanic clocks on at 9 am clocks off at 5 pm takes his hour for lunch and fits in 4 similar jobs . He signs the jobs off thus showing on paper he has done a 12 hour day working on cars .After all .... that's what the customers have paid for . Say this happens every day. There is a paper trail showing hundreds of hours worked ..... that have not been.... and hundreds of pounds raked in for these hours not worked from customers .....

Who gets arrested here ? .....Because it seems like a crime to me ...I should think not only the garage owner has a "Please explain " the mechanic who is

signing the work off as well ....And if a son of mine was the mechanic I would not be happy this way of working was practiced . .

[Quillan]

Is this what happened to you?

You said '£' so I assume this is in the UK?

Car manufacturers take a lot of time and effort to ensure that the parts required and time the job requires is correct. A good engineer may do three hour job thirty minutes quicker if he/she has been doing it repeatedly. The more important aspect is if the part or parts have been replaced which is why I always ask for the old ones (unless they are liquid like oil etc). I always use a main dealer as you have more 'comeback' if there is a problem.

[PaulT]

Sometimes the way that the official workshop manual - i.e. issued by the manufacturer - on which the labour time will be calculated - states a job should be done is not always the quickest.

An example, take you back to the BL Land Crabe - 1600 / 18/85 of the 60s and 70s.

To replace the bottom joint of the swivel hub (takes the drve from the engine and to which the wheel attaches:

Official manual - remove road wheel, remove drive shaft nut, break the steering ball joint break the upper and lower swivel hub ball joints. Remove swivel hub from vehicle. Bend back locking tab and remove bottom ball joint. Fit new ball joint and reverse the removal procedure. Cannot remember the time allowed but at least a couple of hours.

Quick method - remove road wheel, break bottom swivel hub ball joint, bend back the locking tab, using a deep socket remove the lower ball joint and replace with new. Fit taper of ball joint in to arm and fit nut. Time taken 20 minutes.

Had a ball joint come noisy whilst touring Scotland and took it to a BL garage as I did not have the tools with me. They used the quick method and charged me for 20 minutes labour. Back in Surrey I thought 'I wonder' and phone a BL garage for a price. They quoted based on the official method - I wonder how they would have done it had I had them carry out the job.

[dave21478]

Garages cant be expected to know how to do every job on every car, so many subscribe to the Autodata system, which is a vast database giving labour times for each major job on each model of car amongst many other things, like service intervals and procedures, geometry settings, timing marks and required timing belt procedures, bleeding sequences, fault code reading, location of filters or pumps, special tools required etc etc.

The labour time is generally stated as a figure in minutes or hours to "remove, inspect and refit" or to "remove and replace". Most garages will use this stated labour time for their quotes (aside from main dealers who generally have their own info for their own cars) and stick to it.

Th fact that they never charge you less if the job takes less actual time but will happily charge you an extra hour if some bolts were seized or similar is just a symptom of the garage industry - nobody is accountable for total hours worked regarding declared profits and taxes etc, its all just "income" and the actual number of hours worked compared to the number of hours charged doesnt enter the equation anywhere.

[Frederick]

Dave wrote : Th fact that they never charge you less if the job takes less actual time but will happily charge you an extra hour if some bolts were seized or similar is just a symptom of the garage industry - nobody is accountable for total hours worked regarding declared profits and taxes etc, its all just "income" and the actual number of hours worked compared to the number of hours charged doesnt enter the equation anywhere.

Sounds like the garage industry is working a huge rip off here .The mechanics for a start if they are not putting in the hours worked but signing off on invoices showing that they had would be joining the boss in false accounting ... It would be child's play to check the hours they were paid for each week along with the hours the boss had down for them working on customer invoices . It seems like if you find a garage with an HONEST owner you are going to be lucky .

[andyh4]

Freddy boy,

you have to understand what is being said to you. 3 hours work = 3 man hours.

So 1 man for 3 hours.

Or two men for 1.5 hours

Or (in theory at least) one hundred man for 1.8 minutes.

(I think they might just get in on another's way)

[Chancer]

Frederick, I'm not sure if you are naive or on a wind up.

I'm assuming that you are not a wet behind the ears teenager, have you really never realised that this is how the motor trade has always worked? Do you think the faster mechanics work on job & knock? and clear off home late morning?

How do you think a bonus system works in a repair workshop?

I dont know any meccano who amongst peers would say that he takes as long or longer than the book time, they pride themselves on beating it, thats how they make their bonus and how the garage makes a better profit, they will however as Dave has said happily charge you a lot more time for a multitude of problems, some real, some invented.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="andyh4"]Freddy boy,

you have to understand what is being said to you. 3 hours work = 3 man hours.

So 1 man for 3 hours.

Or two men for 1.5 hours

Or (in theory at least) one hundred man for 1.8 minutes.

(I think they might just get in on another's way)[/quote]

Not that there were one hundred of us, Andy, however, in the pits, we could have a cylinder head off an MG Midget, change the head gasket (they were notorious on BMC race engines for "blowing"!) and have the car back on the circuit in circa 15 minutes!

Without tripping over each other's feet or tools!

Admittedly, the whole front of the car hinged forward and the nearest wheel provided a comfy seat: apart from the hot slick, covering one's overalls with hot melted rubber......

I did this in the Burkett Six Hour Relay at Thruxton: and then had to quickly change into my "Go Quicker Knickers! (Nomex suit) and take my turn in the relay.

[AnOther]

Such naivety Fredrick, garages are rip of merchants, has it really taken this long for you to work that out ?

Book

times for jobs will be established by the factory when a model is new and will usually err on the conservative side, almost without exception though they will be bettered by someone actually

experienced in doing the job, often by a huge margin too, but that doesn't mean they are gong to give the customer the benefit.

Despite what you say about your own flesh and blood I'll throw it back and ask if you were the garage owner would

you do it any differently but will say straight up that I won't believe you if you say yes !

Think how much more irked you'd be if they had said 3 hours but taken 5 - and charged for it as they surely would have.

[YCCMB]

Not only must you have been living in a cave not to know this, Frederick, but it is, in fact, the only way that the motor trade (think of them what you will) makes money! If, for example, they were able to charge you a price for your new car that gave them enough of a profit margin to run their business, things might be different, but all manufacturers make their money on after sales and servicing, whether that be parts, labour, or both, and it's been that way since Henry Ford. If a job is listed as taking 3 hours, then you will pay for 3hours' labour, but if the garage can do it in half that time (probably not, but they will definitely shave plenty off the published time) then they will still charge you for the 3 hours.What do you think would happen, for example, if you took your car to the garage for a service and it was done by mechanic A, who could do it in 2 hours, and someone else took the same make and model of car to the same garage for the same service and it was done by mechanic B in 2.5 hours? If the garage couldn't charge everyone the same price for the same job, there'd be all sorts of possible consequences....?

[Frederick]

Well.... its got you all looking at what we have to pay for garage services and how its charged .

To those who think its OK to run a garage in this way

I take it you are quite happy to pay . Personally when I see a guy look at a computer and tell me his one mechanic at say £50 an hour is going to take 4 hours to do the work on my car knowing at the time he is going to do it 2. At that moment he is ripping me off for a hundred quid .. In fact planning to steal from me.

[dave21478]

As I mentioned before, garages may not know how long a job will take unless they have done it before, hence sticking to "book" times when quoting. If it takes them less time, and it generally will, then all the better for them. This is one of the many reasons that the motor trade has such a shitty reputation with the public.

Thats the way it is, and it really is like it or leave it. Personally, I dont like it, so I stay the hell away from garages - but I have the knowledge, skills and tools to do everything myself so the only time my cars go to a garage is for CT or MOT. Plus my cars are generally worth less than the cost of a major service and timing belt change at a dealership.

[Chancer]

Not happy to pay even one centime to a garage, in fact only once in just Under 40 years have I ever used a garage and that was my first week in France when my clutch exploded, I had no Tools with me and was pre-occupied with getting basic sanitation in my place to stop using the bathroom at macDo's, and yes I did get royally ripped off, the worse thing being that I may not have understood the language but I could see exactly where the rip off was coming.

Whilst not a garage I ran a car repair business from 15 to 24 years of age, I didnt charge by the hour but by the job, when I worked fast I made more money, when things went wrong I lost, if I ran a garage with employees I would do exactly as the others, it would be commercial suicide not to do so, I still cant believe that you have only just cottoned on to what I had thought everybody knew.

I remember doing a service and some MOT work on a Morris Minor, I returned the car late to the Customer and apologised explaining that I had a problem with something that was seized, not surprising after 40 years I cant recall what but I can recall the guy (Mr A Carter) and the conversation as he paid me an extra £5 for having had the trouble, the first and only time ever.

[dave21478]

And if this all shocks you, then brace yourself for how little work is actually done during a "service". Public perception is that a garage service is a huge strip-down and rebuild of their car when the reality is little more than sucking the old oil out through the dipstick tube, changing the filter (maybe) and putting new oil in. The rest is just a series of tickboxes to be filled in about fluid levels tyre tread depth and brake pad wear, which now generally doesnt even involve the wheels being removed.

Unless it is specified to be done at that mileage, filters will not be changed, spark plugs wont be changed, belts wont be changed - unless you tell them to. And pay extra of course.

[AnOther]

I don't think anybody is saying it's OK just that it's the way it is.

There will be plenty of garages who will charge you just for time spent so use one of them next time and consider it lesson learnt.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Frederick"]Well.... its got you all looking at what we have to pay for garage services and how iy question ts charged .

To those who think its OK to run a garage in this way

I take it you are quite happy to pay . Personally when I see a guy look at a computer and tell me his one mechanic at say £50 an hour is going to take 4 hours to do the work on my car knowing at the time he is going to do it 2. At that moment he is ripping me off for a hundred quid .. In fact planning to steal from me.[/quote]

But you haven't addressed my question as to how on earth they'd do it any differently if they do the exact same work on hundreds of cars a year and take a different amount of time?

Personally, your comments haven't "got me looking" at anything. I worked in the car industry for a number of years, so it was news to me in the same way as the news that Queen Victoria has died....

[Frederick]

Chancer wrote : I still cant believe that you have only just cottoned on to what I had thought everybody knew.

Of course I knew... Does not mean I like it.... and I think it should be exposed as its becoming common practice when a bread and butter job ( such as cam belt change for example ) even in little garages means ...That a turn to a computer is needed to provide what is likely to be an inflated price.

.

[dave21478]

Back in the "good ol days" garages were under railway arches, drafty and cold or hot and sweaty. You could hear the rattle of air guns over a battered Pye radio balanced on a shelf with a bit of coathanger for an aerial. Mind you dont trip on that Maxi gearbox as you make your way to a roughly partitioned corner where there is a desk and a filing cabinet and not much else, apart from the Pirelli calenders on the wall.

Even main dealers were converted shopfronts or portacabins.

Now....they are like something from Science Fiction... soaring glass edifices purpose built on the edge of town. Inside its climate controlled luxury with plush carpets, mood lighting and designer coffee machines. Pretty girls sit behind a reception desk with a surface area larger than your kitchen. No sight or sound of the workshops - there will be a window somewhere that allows you to view the servicing bays, but the layout and lighting will subconsciously discourage you from doing so, instead drawing your eye to the new models on display with their doors invitingly open and such affordable finance rates on the windscreen.

Even independent garages have cleaned up their act with waiting rooms full of flat screen TV`s and Xbox for the kids....

When you pay €150 Euros for a teenager to perform a glorified oil change and a gammy-eyed Ukranian to hoover out the interior and give it a squirt of Febreeze, your money sure as hell isnt going towards the service.

People in shiny suits who drive Audis dont want to see the dirty bits. They want a free moccachino decaf with extra caffeine to sip while their car is worked on and they are happy enough (or their leasing company is, more like) to pay whatever price that takes.

[Quillan]

I guess it's simple really, get a quote, if you think the garage is ripping you off then go elsewhere. The other thing is the parts, how do you know they have not fitted a cheaper unbranded timeing belt fr example? Lots of people make oil filters, break pads etc, are you told they are not using manufacturers parts and are they then charging you for a manufacturing part?

Main dealer servicing is easy these days as the prices are on the wall for all to see and the price is set by the car manufacturer and will be the same wherever you go.

[Chancer]

[quote user="Frederick"]Chancer wrote : I still cant believe that you have only just cottoned on to what I had thought everybody knew. Of course I knew... Does not mean I like it.... and I think it should be exposed as its becoming common practice when a bread and butter job ( such as cam belt change for example ) even in little garages means ...That a turn to a computer is needed to provide what is likely to be an inflated price. .[/quote]

So you knew, and everyone else knew, what exactly are you exposing then? That instead of thumbing through an Autodata book of repair times that they now use a computer?

Any garage, indeed most garages dont need to rely on a computer or a repair time book to rip you off.

While we are exposing things I have a couple, the Pope is a Catholic and bears defecate in the woods.

[NickP]

Frederick I think a lot of peoples experience of garage charges are bad, unfortunately most ordinary people suffer from the lack of knowledge about the workings of a car, modern vehicles and computers have made it more difficult to understand a

lot of problems, mainly it's all those sensors under the bonnet,   so getting ripped off is often the result. Especially when you are told that a left handed giggle pin is past it's sell by date and the ugeemaflip is broken.

Personally I feel that I've been very lucky, as when we first bought our holiday home in France I went to a local Mercedes specialist to get a small problem dealt with, they did what was required with no Bull Shite and because I was so impressed I arranged for the next service to be done there. Well what a great surprise after my dealings with Mercedes UK. We were made to feel that our custom was welcome instead of feeling that we were just cash cows, another plus was that their labour charges were half of the ones I paid in Weybridge in Surrey, every thing on the bill is itemized and replaced parts are returned, also the labour charges are in twenty minute increments. We have in the last ten years arranged our car servicing around our trips to France; and our experience of this garage has been so good that our next two replacement cars have been the same make. So to sum up there is I think sometimes a personal relationship when it comes to using outside services whether it's a builder or a garage, and using the same people especially if they are good does have it's rewards. Although do I agree with you that  the unscrupulous milk customers,

[Chancer]

Spot on.

Thats a good garage that has built up a sucessfull business on looking after its customers, however I bet even they will use book times (or the times off the computer) when giving you a devi for a non service job, they wont charge you any more if it takes them longer and I doubt that they would charge you less if they did it quicker, however in Fredericks world they are rip off scam artists.

Some garages especially main dealers will charge a lot more than the book hours for really awkward jobs, ones with difficult access, basically the stuff they dont want to be dealing with, this creates an opening for specialist garages that through repetition, crafty working, perhaps making a special tool will have found a way to do the job in well Under the quoted hours and will undercut the others.

All of the fast fit clutch centres expect their meccanos to do clutches in well Under the book hours, their bonus and indeed their jobs depend on it.

The book time to say change a rear light bulb (with simple access) will be probably 20 or 30 minutes as it includes the time for the receptionist to book it in, the mechanic to drive it into the workshop, get the bulb from the stores, do the job and drive it out etc, where they make their money is when these jobs are done during a routine service, you will be paying the overhead part of each action whereas in reality the vehicle is booked and driven in only once, then of course there is the mark up on consumable parts like bulbs, wiper blades.

I dont thin anyone on here except Fredrick was ignorant that garages strive to do jobs in less than the booked time that the Customer is invoiced nor do they think it is wrong.

When I did lectric gate installations a high end job could be £10-£20K, customers would always ask how long the install would take, I would tell them that I had set aside a week for the job and if it took longer I would remain and not leave site until it was working and handed over, many many times rich impatient customers would ask me on the first morning would I be finished that day [:-))] I really got the impression that some of them would have been happy if the job were done in 10 minutes flat, its a funny old world.

[PaulT]

Chancer: All of the fast fit clutch centres expect their meccanos to do clutches in well Under the book hours, their bonus and indeed their jobs depend on it.

Think you will find that some of their methods lack finesse and can be a little brutal.

[Gluestick]

[quote user="Chancer"]

Some garages especially main dealers will charge a lot more than the book hours for really awkward jobs, ones with difficult access, basically the stuff they dont want to be dealing with, this creates an opening for specialist garages that through repetition, crafty working, perhaps making a special tool will have found a way to do the job in well Under the quoted hours and will undercut the others.[/quote]

Indeed, Chancer.

However, as cars have been more complicated, the independent must now invest increasingly large chunks of capital in specialised kit.

For example, new Auto-Stop-Run engine systems require special batteries: which must be programmed to fit each specific car, bit like modern car keys.

On special tools: reminds me of quite a few!

When the Mini was first introduced, the official works time of replacing the clutch was 8 hours! Engine/transmission out. However we soon worked out a small flywheel puller could remove the whole unit in-situ. Last one I can remember doing was my son's; on the drive. Took me about an hour.

Also the Mini suffered from bursting the small bypass hose between the end of the head and the water pump casing: regularly!

Off with the cylinder head, then! Err, no; I made up a small tyre lever, with the end ground right down and used to substitute a convoluted hose which would "Squash"; a good dollop of Swarfega or similar and on they popped.

Generally, I'm afraid, the retail repair and servicing side of the automotive industry has always suffered from exploiting customer's cupidity and sorry to say, stupidity.

 Nothing guaranteed to make a garage bristle more than the old tired dialogue:

Customer: How much would it be to mend, please

Garage: £x.

Customer: What??!!! Can't afford that; what can you do for say 50% of £x?

Garage: (Unspoken reaction): Bodge it up and waste your cash!

[ventodue]

[quote user="Frederick"] ... when I see a guy look at a computer and tell me his one mechanic at say £50 an hour is going to take 4 hours to do the work on my car knowing at the time he is going to do it 2. At that moment, he is ripping me off for a hundred quid .. In fact planning to steal from me.[/quote]

So, applying this logic, you'd presumably be happy if he billed you for the 2 hours work he reckons the job will take; but charged his mechanic's time out, not at £50/hour, but at £100/hour?* [:-))] .

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not how the final bill is calculated that matters.  What matters is whether you, the customer, believes the price charged is justified by the outcome.  Trying to break-down a bill in a simplistic way like this is simply a pointless exercise (and one likely to get you hot under the collar!): you don't know what his charge-out rates are or even, as others have pointed out, how long the job actually takes.  So, at the end of the day, either you buy the package - or you don't.

* And £100 an hour for a trained Technician (as they like to be called these days) is not exceptional  - go http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-2655078/Garage-repair-labour-rates-hit-jaw-dropping-record-highs.html.  And this isn't just the normal press rubbish: I have friend who is a BMW Meister Technician at a main South Coast dealer and even 10 years ago his charge out rate was well over £100/hour.  Hate to think what it might be today - but then again, I don't own a BMW!