Better out of the EU?

[NickP]

Andyh4 wrote, " Any pensioners out there? Thanks to the EU, you get the same pension as

someone back home and not a reduced or frozen pension - as the UK does

for pensioners in its close relations within the Commonwealth like

Australia"

Not true my friend lots of none EU countries have social security agreements with the UK:which means you get the same pension rights as UK residents.Also there are reciprocal arrangements for health benefits in many non EU countries. Another anomaly that has arisen from this thread is that as long as you are a moderator you can be as rude as you like with impunity, but hey,  they don't like it back.[:P]

[Quillan]

There is also, perhaps at times controversial, the European Arrest Warrant which has been around a long time, from 2004 to be precise. So far over 80,000 have been issued within the EU. I quite like the idea of them to be honest. It means the days of the villain running off to the Costas has gone (as one of many examples). OK there are occasions where it has gone wrong, the little boy with cancer whose parents ran away to Spain but that is a very small percentage. That said it was the UK that got it wrong for a European Warrant can only be issued if there is a warrant in existence within a member state. On the other side for the sake of balance it was used to capture the schoolgirl who ran off with her teacher. I doubt her parents thought it was a bad idea.

What does annoy me at times is how political parties use EU legislation but claim it is their own. The testing of houses for energy efficiency is a classic. It was actually EU legislation not something unique to the UK. Not easy to spot when you're in the UK but when you live in another EU country and see it being made a requirement there at the same time it makes you wonder if there is a link back to the EU and sure enough there is.

Going back the Norway thing I posted originally. Without being in the EEA import duty is taxed on goods from outside the EU where the destination is the EU. I bought a model from America and had to pay quite a bit of import duty (I forget the percentage) when it arrived at my house. I have bought other items from around the world and unless marked as a present I have had to pay import duty. People will point at China who flood the market with cheap goods but they pay duty as well, well the importer to be correct. Thing is the cost of manufacturing the goods is so cheap because whilst the materials used will be roughly the same the cost of making the items is low due to very low wages. Imagine if the UK left the EU and the likes of Toyota tell their workers they are going to cut their wages to take into account the import duty on the 80% odd of cars they produce that are for the EU. The workers won't accept that so Toyota will simply move production to another EU country. Don't forget it is not just those working on the production line but those that make the bits for the cars, the transporter lorry drivers etc, etc, that will lose out. So all in all the UK would have to join the EEA and would end up no better off than it is now plus we won't get a say in EU policy. Don't forget the EU is the biggest singular importer of UK goods.

I also understand where Idun and Hoddy are coming from and really we should have had a referendum at each stage as these major changes came into effect.  I know you can't have a referendum for each minor change as we would be in the polling booths 24/7 but big ones, well yes, we should have had a vote.

[andyh4]

Actually Nick, very true. The UK is bound by EU rules to ensure that pensions are the same. If it left the EU it would be dependent on setting up nearly 30 separate bi-lateral agreements to maintain the status quo. With no guarantee that it would do so - especially in financially constrained times. The Tories are removing WFA (they may lose that in the EU courts yet) from some pensioners, so does that make you feel sure that bi-lateral agreements would be set up?

[woolybanana]

[quote user="NickP"]Andyh4 wrote, " Any pensioners out there? Thanks to the EU, you get the same pension as someone back home and not a reduced or frozen pension - as the UK does for pensioners in its close relations within the Commonwealth like Australia"

Not true my friend lots of none EU countries have social security agreements with the UK:which means you get the same pension rights as UK residents.Also there are reciprocal arrangements for health benefits in many non EU countries. Another anomaly that has arisen from this thread is that as long as you are a moderator you can be as rude as you like with impunity, but hey,  they don't like it back.[:P]

[/quote] Sorry, Nick, but can you point out an example of moderator rudeness on this thread? Seems that the only unseemly language was ebaynut's, brought on by, one assumes, an excess of the grape or the grain.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]
Not true my friend lots of none EU countries have social security agreements with the UK:which means you get the same pension rights as UK residents.Also there are reciprocal arrangements for health benefits in many non EU countries.

[/quote]

Yes you are right about the healthcare and I am sure you would need it if you went on holiday to the Ukraine. Interestingly however many of the countries are still technically UK dependencies, ex dependencies or colonies. The rest are basically on the European continent and some are in the process of applying for EU membership. A full list of the 27 can be found using the following link. I would think that some have entered the agreement more out of self interest than anything else. 

http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/countryguide/NonEEAcountries/Pages/Non-EEAcountries.aspx

[idun]

Re the European arrest warrant.

Call it what you will, but that should have been brought in years ago. We have Interpol and something could have been worked out around using that organisation. We also have NATO, which sort of works too. We don't need the EU to have international cooperation, at all.

And I agree the EEA as I said, is as far as I am concerned legal racketering. And maybe I should be happy that these 'mugs' are having to pay up, but I have the sad feeling that even if they were not, there is so much wasted money in the EU that it would not affect my life if they were no longer paying in.

Strangely the EU site says that they never waste money that it is all........ for want of some better expression, an urban myth, in fact they are all as white as the driven snow and no one earns excessive money either. A good audit may put that right. And I may be wrong, but maybe this is a bit like those little 'arguments' at home......... I'm not usually[;-)], but conceed that there is the odd occasion when I am[Www]

[NickP]

[quote user="andyh4"]Actually Nick, very true. The UK is bound by EU rules to ensure that pensions are the same. If it left the EU it would be dependent on setting up nearly 30 separate bi-lateral agreements to maintain the status quo. With no guarantee that it would do so - especially in financially constrained times. The Tories are removing WFA (they may lose that in the EU courts yet) from some pensioners, so does that make you feel sure that bi-lateral agreements would be set up?[/quote]

Why wouldn't they? they already have with many other countries. Also don't forget that immigrants from the UK only get limited cost cover for health in France, while the French in the UK get 100%.

[idun]

NickP, remember we do not get 100% from the UK, just like that, we have to hand in an S1 (E121 and prior to that an E106).

And we are giving this careful thought now. With french pension being our only income, and eventually being the biggest part of our income, then IF the UK leaves, then we may well move if our income may be affected, maybe Brittany, or maybe Ireland, not sure, but we have already given it some thought.

[NickP]

[quote user="woolybanana"]  Sorry, Nick, but can you point out an example of moderator rudeness on this thread? Seems that the only unseemly language was ebaynut's, brought on by, one assumes, an excess of the grape or the grain.[/quote]

Not on this thread WB, but you've been around long enough to know what has been said in the past. Also your assuming somnething about a member that is not necessarily true. I never saw anything terrible or unseemly in what he said, I just thought hmm! bit strong; but if that's what he believes that's up to him. [8-)]

[NickP]

[quote user="idun"]NickP, remember we do not get 100% from the UK, just like that, we have to hand in an S1 (E121 and prior to that an E106).

And we are giving this careful thought now. With french pension being our only income, and eventually being the biggest part of our income, then IF the UK leaves, then we may well move if our income may be affected, maybe Brittany, or maybe Ireland, not sure, but we have already given it some thought.

[/quote] So you're telling me that you don't get free medical care at the point of delivery?

[Quillan]

Interesting the comments about healthcare entitlement. The idea of the S1 is to give you the same healthcare cover as the rest of those living in the member state to which you have migrated to. Some charge a percentage like France and others give you 100% cover. Quite frankly if you find this a major issue then don't come to France, it is that simple, go to one that gives you 100% cover. I would have thought quality and overall cost is the most important issue and I notice France, according to the 2014 figures, still ranks much higher in just about every facet of healthcare than the UK in Europe (Europe as opposed to the EU I should point out). For the money I pay for the quality I get which is nearly, if not equal to, private health cover in the UK it's less than half of UK private medical insurance at my age. At the end of the day nobody forces you to migrate, it is your choice.

[Rabbie]

I would be happy for any major changes in our relationship with the EU to be subject to a referendum if I was sure that the voters were being given the correct information and not the usual mixture of half-truths so beloved of much of our media. I would also want people to vote withe their heads and not with their hearts on these matters. They are IMO too important for our country to be made emotionally. They should be made after a mature consideration of the relevant facts

[andyh4]

NickP wrote

Also don't forget that immigrants from the UK only get limited cost cover for health in France, while the French in the UK get 100%.

UNQUOTE

Correct Nick. As Q points out you get the same level of cover and costs as a local.

As a French person in the UK this would be due to working in the UK and paying NI - the same as any UK worker.

Or

Like Idun as a pensioner with an S1 where the 100% costs are charged back to France.

Or

As a visitor to the UK using the EMHC where again the costs are charged back.

There are significant differences in the way healthcare is handled across Europe and this leads to anomalies. My own case in point as a pensioner with a German state pension, I am required to purchase health insurance that provides essentially 100% cover - I won't bore you with the details of why it is not 100%. This cover is deducted at source from my pension. I have an S1 for use in France, that then provides me with 70% healthcare. So I "have to" purchase extra insurance cover in France to top up my 100% insurance back up to 100%. Essentially I am paying twice.

But that is the cost of my lifestyle here in France and is my choice.

[Hoddy]

That sounds fine and dandy Rabbie. How can we be sure what the facts are ?

I really tried last time to be objective, but all the information that I could find then was spun one way or another. I fear that I might have to resort again to voting with my heart rather than my head although I should make it clear I would much rather make a choice based on fact just as I wanted to last time.

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]At the end of the day nobody forces you to migrate, it is your choice.[/quote]

That's not true, your lot have been migrating since Pharaoh through you out. [:)]

France ranks much higher according to the 2014 figures than the UK but is that on a pound to pound basis?  It seems it costs more in france but you may......get more. well that's to be expected, certainly Grecian's recent experience sounds just the same as the UK, maybe that's not much to go on but for eye care and probably hearing to? I bet france is a rip off.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Rabbie"]I would be happy for any major changes in our relationship with the EU to be subject to a referendum if I was sure that the voters were being given the correct information and not the usual mixture of half-truths so beloved of much of our media. I would also want people to vote withe their heads and not with their hearts on these matters. They are IMO too important for our country to be made emotionally. They should be made after a mature consideration of the relevant facts[/quote]

Hear, hear Rabbie. The problem is there is so much rubbish being talked about with little or no factual input from the 'pro' side that people will 'vote' with their heart. Also with so much bullshite what is the truth? Some are at the point of total denial and strongly believe that apart from saving money it will make absolutely no difference if we leave whilst others believe that without the UK the EU will crumble in days (not that I am suggesting anyone here thinks this way). I see a repeat of the Scottish Independence vote with everything left to the last minute and the vote taking place on a wing and a prayer with one side just scraping through.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"]At the end of the day nobody forces you to migrate, it is your choice.[/quote]
That's not true, your lot have been migrating since Pharaoh through you out. [:)]

France ranks much higher according to the 2014 figures than the UK but is that on a pound to pound basis?  It seems it costs more in france but you may......get more. well that's to be expected, certainly Grecian's recent experience sounds just the same as the UK, maybe that's not much to go on but for eye care and probably hearing to? I bet france is a rip off.
[/quote]

Well I pay just under 900 Euros a year plus 147 Euro to the Mutual per month for two of us, thats a total of 2,264 per year. BUPA insurance when we lived in the UK was £320 per month each plus I paid 12,250 odd in NI per year and we all know the NI contribution does not cover the whole of your healthcare which brings me to a total for the two of us to £19,930 per year for the same level of service and that was back in 2001. For the ranking you can look at the following link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Europe

Take no notice of the first table as it is the old 2000 WHO one, look at the one below it.

As to GDP I can't find any current figures except those for 2010 which shows France spent 11.6% on healthcare (same as Germany) and the UK spend 9.5%.

Percentage of GDP per country

 

[Quillan]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"]At the end of the day nobody forces you to migrate, it is your choice.[/quote]
That's not true, your lot have been migrating since Pharaoh through you out. [:)]

[/quote]

Ah yes, we have single handedly made the shop window glass fitters the millionairs they are today. Without us they would be out of business not to mention the insurance companies and Volvo. [;-)]

[NickP]

[quote user="Quillan"]Interesting the comments about healthcare entitlement. The idea of the S1 is to give you the same healthcare cover as the rest of those living in the member state to which you have migrated to. Some charge a percentage like France and others give you 100% cover. Quite frankly if you find this a major issue then don't come to France, it is that simple, go to one that gives you 100% cover. I would have thought quality and overall cost is the most important issue and I notice France, according to the 2014 figures, still ranks much higher in just about every facet of healthcare than the UK in Europe (Europe as opposed to the EU I should point out). For the money I pay for the quality I get which is nearly, if not equal to, private health cover in the UK it's less than half of UK private medical insurance at my age. At the end of the day nobody forces you to migrate, it is your choice.[/quote]

I haven't migrated and have no intention of doing so. My; and my families dealings with the NHS; and these have been quite a big issue in our lives, has been superb, OK one or two small niggles but from what I hear from; and have experienced with my French neighbours, the system over here is far from perfect unless of course you've got your "everything in France is better" goggles on. As for the Health care being the only issue, well that is a ridiculous statement and you know it.

                        

I hope you remember  "that is your choice" comment Q, when one or two on this forum, as they will, start whinging on about being abroad for twenty years and not being able to vote in the UK.

[Quillan]

Well Nick nothing is perfect, just better. Very few French have ever experienced the NHS and those that have that I have alked to have found it horrible. Both my neighbours daughters have had the babies delivered in the UK (they live and work there) and were horified by the experience. They saw the 'wards' with more than two beds and thought it very unhealthy and were supprised at the lack of privacy. I am glad you have recieved excellent healthcare in the UK as I know it is available in some areas but I know many, including myself, have had some pretty terrible experiences but this has very little really to do with being in or out of the EU.

As to not voting in the UK I think quite right to but I do think we should be allowed to vote (nationally) in country in which we live and I think you may find I am not the only one that thinks that.

[ebaynut]

Well I cant find anything insulting in my post, all the things I wrote where clearly stated by Q many times in this, an open public forum. I merely stated the facts, and never insulted. If I had added words which Q uses often when writing about Kippers, namely ‘thick’ and ‘stupid’ to the description then it could have been described as offensive.

Remember what Andrew Neil ( yes, I also watch ‘this week’) said so well, ‘nobody has the right not to be offended’.

If Q wishes to start almost weekly posts running UKIP and the Kippers down, expect not everyone to agree.

I could have posted when UKIP absolutely smashed all the others in the last two by elections, but to what ends, we are all too old to change our minds on the subject, you either love or hate UKIP, why slag each other off. I doubt you would change your mind, or me mine.

I was merely pointing out someone with Q’s lifestyle and history and hopes for the future would be different to mine. Trouble is people want to read it as an insulting possibly racist post. It was not.

Regarding the European project, it is something I wish to see not only derailed, but smashed to pieces. I have no wish for an unelected elite in Brussels making laws which I have to live by, with no way of removing their power by the ballot box. That does start wars. God forbid that if the French had a hand in making all our laws in the UK, we would all end up as poor as most of their own people, who outside of the Paris suburbs are driving around mostly in mobile scrap heaps from the 1980’s as they cant afford any better. Some may say they are happy with their lot, lets hope so, as they will never be able to change it.

[Théière]

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="Quillan"]At the end of the day nobody forces you to migrate, it is your choice.[/quote]

That's not true, your lot have been migrating since Pharaoh through you out. [:)]

[/quote]

Ah yes, we have single handedly made the shop window glass fitters the millionairs they are today. Without us they would be out of business not to mention the insurance companies and Volvo. [;-)]

[/quote]

[:D][:D]

Thanks for the stats, makes interesting reading, love to see more of the factors in the decision process.  An American lady working over in the UK on the private public funding project was astounded by the number of people treated for the budget when compared to the US and said it was excellent value and no wonder we would fight to protect it but I see your point on the EU model and your mutuel costs are not as high as I would have expected so you may be younger than I expected but the BUPA figures which were some time back say not.

EDIT:

[quote user="Quillan"]

Very few French have ever experienced the NHS

and those that have that I have alked to have found it horrible. Both my

neighbours daughters have had the babies delivered in the UK (they live

and work there) and were horified by the experience. They saw the

'wards' with more than two beds and thought it very unhealthy and were

supprised at the lack of privacy.[/quote]

That doesn't make it bad just different, if it were truly unhealthy then morbity/mortality rates would reflect it. I have to admit when our local hospital was undergoing refurb it was terrifying to me as it looked like a scene from MASH but that was a while back, the new units are open and it is doing well as a hospital. Some of the staff are still a bit rude but that's because they also deal with some rude people that's the postcode not the NHS.  Fortunately I bribed a doctor with some Belgium chocolates for a side room [:)] but she said afterwards, " you have meningitis, we would have put you in side ward anyway" [:P]

[ebaynut]

Judith wrote Or rather ... exterminate. ...exterminate .. exterminate .... surely a much better idea??

Have you been radicalised?? You sound like an IS agent, your not ‘Jihad Judith’ are you by any chance??

[nomoss]

Posting again below

[Quillan]

[quote user="ebaynut"]But your views as a Jewish person of a mixed race marriage, with gay people in your family ( you often state these facts, so clearly you are very proud of them) would be completely different to a white English straight persons view. So you will never understand, or would I expect you too. Or would I waste my time trying to explain it to you.[/quote]

And you don't think that is insulting to Jewish, coloured and gay people especially when you added "would be completely different to a white English straight persons view"? I think that is blatantly anti-Semitic, racists and homophobic but perhaps I am wrong, perhaps it's just me then?