mint Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 yes or no?I listened to Jeremy Corbyn and Michael Fallon this morning on the Andrew Marr show.Just in this instance, I believe Corbyn has a good argument for no, not at this time. He didn't rule out bombing, just wanted that to be the last resort.I have read elsewhere that there are so many different bombs being dropped, by US, France, Russia etc that there are now more bombs than targets and that many of the planes are having to return to base, not having dropped any bombs.As for Fallon's argument, repeated many times, that the French have asked us for help, I'd like to respond by asking just when have we done what the French wanted?[I]If, as reported, the buyers of Syria's oil, and the sellers of arms to ISIS are being tracked down, I think that we need to give these other measures a chance to succeed before any precipitate action.Most compelling of all is the argument that we have no plans in place for after all the bombs have been dropped and some sort of "victory" has been achieved.What then indeed? Have we learnt nothing from our errors in Iraq? Did we do any good after Gaddafi got his comeuppance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroTrash Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 "He didn't rule out bombing, just wanted that to be the last resort."I'm just struggling to get my head round how anyone could justify ever bombing anywhere, other than as a last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 29, 2015 Author Share Posted November 29, 2015 ET, yes, I hear what you are saying but try telling that to the warmongers[:'(] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 With so many different countries out there bombing this and that there is going to be more than one aircraft shot down. Therefore my gut feeling is to stay well away. This is for me nothing to do with Corbyn more about why put our guys in the firing line to get shot at etc. when others are more willing and more capable than us. There is also the matter of retaliation by ISIS on British soil to consider. The UK is very lucky in that it is not part of the Schengen agreement and as such still maintains a border control. Now it seems othe EU countries are regretting being a member of Schengen and have put border controls back in place. My guests tell me that there is a border control on the main road crossing from France to Spain and also France to Andorra. We are seeing many other EU members putting their borders back. The UK also has an excellent intelligence service, police force and military and have been able to stop several attacks on Britain over the last few years. If there was the will and the time I would love to see a referendum on the issue so the people can decide but it can't and won't happen. Also, as some may be aware, the RAF is part of a joint task force with the US and Canada and as such, although not directly under UK control, is already bombing ISIS targets in Syria as well as carrying out recon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyh4 Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 QTo suggest that bombing in Syria suddenly makes the UK a target holds no water, given that we are trying to bomb the hell out of them in Iraq.Unless of course we think that terrorists only come from IS in Syria and not in Iraq.Having said that, I am still not fully convinced that we can bring anything to the Syrian attacks. The only argument for me would be if a bombing flight was attacking a group that in the course of the attack crossed the (notional) border and as a consequence the attack was called off in mid fire. Do I really think that would happen? Emmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Makes about as much sense as bombing Tower Hamlets [url]http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100060304/labour-london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic/[/url]This lot bring a new dimension to stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 [quote user="andyh4"]Q To suggest that bombing in Syria suddenly makes the UK a target holds no water, given that we are trying to bomb the hell out of them in Iraq. Unless of course we think that terrorists only come from IS in Syria and not in Iraq.[/quote] IS does not see countries like Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria, the land they "own" in all these countries is joined into one caliphate (country if you like). It is a different concept to how we view countries. At the moment as you rightly say we are only bombing in Iraq or to put it another way 1/5th of their caliphate. We have already seen bombers caught and prosecuted in the UK over the last couple of years thankfully without any bombs actually going off. Likewise we don't know what the intelligence services know. I would also like to remind people about Spanish PM José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero who won the 2004 election which was held after the Madrid train station bombing by Islam terrorists. They said they would carry on bombing Spain if Spain did not stop their participation in the Iraq war. Zapatero said he would do exactly that and three days after the bombings, when the election took place, he won. Within a month all Spanish troops had left Iraq and they have not had an Islamist terrorist attack in Spain since. Whilst there may be some debate on how big an effect the bombings had on the election it is true to say that there were no more bombings after the troops came home. Does make you wonder who keeps their promises and who doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 [quote user="nomoss"]Makes about as much sense as bombing Tower Hamlets [url]http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100060304/labour-london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic/[/url]This lot bring a new dimension to stupidity.[/quote] Indeed if I suspect if I trawled through the Torygraph or the DM I could find something that's five and a half years old to prove some point or another. Perhaps we should make all Muslims in the UK register on database and carry ID like Trump wants to happen in the US. Better still why not make them wear an armband with the letter 'M' on it and the 'M' written on their backs as well. We could all get together one night and burn the Koran and firebomb the mosques. As a Jew it brings up memories of how the Germans treated Jews in November 38. The only difference is the Kippers don't have uniforms, the public would be DM and DE readers and the Jews would become Muslims. This is exactly what ISIS wants, why spend money trying to attract fellow Muslims to their cause when you can get the indigenous population in a country to do it for you. ISIS are not stupid, never, ever, think they are. Just think about where these bombings and attacks have happened then look at the effect they are having. They have a well thought out plan. "coalition air strikes have not yet had an impact on the morale of the Islamic State" -Peter Neumann heads the International Centre for the Study of Radicalization in the Department of War Studies at King's College London. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomoss Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 [quote user="Quillan"][quote user="nomoss"]Makes about as much sense as bombing Tower Hamlets [url]http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100060304/labour-london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic/[/url]This lot bring a new dimension to stupidity.[/quote] Indeed if I suspect if I trawled through the Torygraph or the DM I could find something that's five and a half years old to prove some point or another. Perhaps we should make all Muslims in the UK register on database and carry ID like Trump wants to happen in the US. Better still why not make them wear an armband with the letter 'M' on it and the 'M' written on their backs as well. We could all get together one night and burn the Koran and firebomb the mosques. As a Jew it brings up memories of how the Germans treated Jews in November 38. The only difference is the Kippers don't have uniforms, the public would be DM and DE readers and the Jews would become Muslims. This is exactly what ISIS wants, why spend money trying to attract fellow Muslims to their cause when you can get the indigenous population in a country to do it for you. ISIS are not stupid, never, ever, think they are. Just think about where these bombings and attacks have happened then look at the effect they are having. They have a well thought out plan. "coalition air strikes have not yet had an impact on the morale of the Islamic State" -Peter Neumann heads the International Centre for the Study of Radicalization in the Department of War Studies at King's College London. [/quote]Maybe it's because it's a bit late, and the jolly old vino down there in the woods is dulling the mind, but you seem to have completely missed the point of what I posted. The provenance of the quote has nothing to do with its significance.If you had bothered to read what I said, it suggested that bombing Syria makes as much sense as bombing Tower Hamlets, and "this lot" refers to the present UK government.I so hate having to explain things.Oh, and I suggest you were not around in 1938 to remember anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 If you wrote in plain English, which I can read, it wouldn't be a problem rather than trying to decipher the way your brain works. I take it you never read about Kristallnacht then nor remembered what it was about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I will not listen to Jeremy Corbyn. I have read that he stays true to his principles. I have looked, but cannot find anything, about his demonstrating against gulags in the old USSR. So as far as I am concerned, his principles are at best.......shallow! Apparently when he was young and now he is old!And frankly I remember well being young and anti establishment and anti war......... but 'I' grew up!He makes me think of Chamberlain and I do not trust him.Is there a case for bombing daesh, if it is done properly, then yes. Carpet bombing would be stupid. At this moment I am rather concerned about Turkey and Russia, all a mess, and somehow feels like it is playing into the daesh hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted November 30, 2015 Author Share Posted November 30, 2015 Turkey and Russia...............yikes, VERY nasty situation[:'(]Since I first posted, I have read around the subject much more and listened to others' opinions and, if I were an MP and could vote, I think I should be inclined to say No, No Bomb at the present time."I will not listen to Jeremy Corbyn".............forgive me, id, that's no way to take an active part in any debate. Listen first and then condemn if that is your conclusion. But, to not listen is no way to form an educated opinion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idun Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Ofcourse when he was first proposed as a labour leader I listened and when he got voted in, and it was this eternal pacifist about him that really started to gnaw at me, so I really did try and look and see just how principled he was about the old USSR and found zilch.Maybe I was just looking in the wrong places, but, trust the man, who as a young man couldn't see past his nose, and appears to have kept the same views........... well, I shall not be listening to him and frankly wasting my time.I'd trust him as far as I would trust Tony Blair. [:D] And could their views be even more diametrically opposed??I am going to try and catch it again on catch up on BBC news, but there was a wonderful debate on Dateline London. An iranian journalist, spoke the best sense about the whole situation, with very insightful and educational information. I was very impressed with the man. So bombing, yes, it appears it would help, obviously according to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Being ex military I don't have a problem with defending something that is ours. I went to the Falkland Islands and fortunately didn't have to fight anyone although (as if I had a choice) I was quite willing to do so. I never agreed with the Iraq war, indeed like many Falkland veterans I returned my Falklands campaign medal in protest. More than 26,000 Afghanistan civilians have been killed since 2001, over 100,000 seriously injured (loss of limb etc.) and as many as 2/3rds of the civil population are allegedly suffering from PSD. In Iraq there is no exact number but it is a currently held opinion of the US government that since 2003 some 165,000 civilians have been killed by US and allied military action. It is thought that this figure can be doubled if you add in the people who have died because of the destruction of infrastructure such as the ability to produce and deliver medical treatment/drugs, food and clean water. When you look at these countries now what improvements have the population gained, none. On the 15th January 2015 the UN estimated that approximately 220,000 Syrian civilians have been killed although other sources have given estimates of between 143,150 and 340,125. One would like to think we would learn by our mistakes and I believe that ISIS may well not exist as we know it today if the US and it's allies had not been involved in these countries. Likewise I also think that should we get involved in Syrian ISIS will grow and as I mentioned in another post it would seem that the current bombing has had no moral effect on ISIS. The UK should not be bullied by the US, it should not be morally blackmailed by countries already bombing there including France even if we do have a great deal of sympathy for those killed in the terrorist attacks and their families. Going to war, which is what effectively we are doing, is a very grave decision. I would have liked to have thought that MP's would have spent their weekend talking to constituents seeking their opinion which I doubt happened anywhere. I would like to see a referendum but that is not practical so we are left, in my opinion, with only one course of action which is to have a free vote in parliament across all parties yet somehow I can't see that happening either. This goes way beyond party politics and I hope the vote to bomb will be NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lehaut Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 I too was in the Military during the Falklands (Navy) and as proved there, bombing will not win the situation. Boots on the ground as history shows is the only effective way of clearing an enemy out. We really do not want to put our service people in harms way again for a conflict we cannot win. If had to vote, I would want convincing proof that the bombs are finding real targets with minimal collatoral damage. Unless we have real eyes on the ground giving hard intel, I doubt this is the case. At the moment I would also vote No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 ISIS are an invading force within the chaos that is Syria and Iraq, backed by one section of some of the tribes of both lands and determined to exterminate or enslave the remainder. Their methods are extremely violent, close to mediaeval. They are officered by ex-troops from Saddam Hussein's army.Our job would be to disrupt and degrade their infrastructure including their means of gaining finds by selling oil, as well as taking out their leaders where we can.Thus far, reasonable; we are relying on the Iraqi, Syrian and Kurdish armies plus Iranian Revilutionary guards to do the ground wiork. Presumably they will learn to cope where the cannot already.ISIS has vowed to destroy Western European civilization and has already shown its ability to murder the innocent.Where is the problem with hitting them hard with whatever means possible, though I suspect that they will be brushing off the Fairy Swordfish in Yeovilton Fleet Air Arm museum pretty soon as we do not seem to have any other aircraft.There is no case for holding discussions with these people over a glass of Alkaseltzer, nor can they be allowed to get their hands on the oil of the Middle East.Simples really, smack them hard and often til they crack BUT, when they do break up, beware of the shrapnel fleeing towards Europe with murder in mind; they will have to be taken aside and shot in most cases.Oh, and Jeremy Corbin; he is not the legitimate leader of the Labour party as he was largely voted in by a bunch of £3 new members put up to joining and voting by various interested parties mainly of the hard left whose aim is to take over the party from the inside in order to push an extreme Trot regime which would see Britain approaching Venezuelan standards of living and democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lindal1000 Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/5098168/Ex-chief-of-defence-warns-against-bombing-Syria.htmlAndhttp://www.thenational.scot/news/nato-general-sir-richard-shirreff-warns-air-strikes-on-syria-are-useless.10604It seems that many people with military experience do not think bombing Syria will achieve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NormanH Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 From a former French hostage: (in English) http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/02/nicolas-henin-video-isis-syria-strikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabbie Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Well now the vote has been taken and a comfortable majority have endorsed the bombing. What worries me is the number of senior military and ex-military people who have come out against the decision.Personally I felt that we should not bomb Syria without a clear strategy as to how we would accomplish our goals. It seems to be a truism that bombing alone is not sufficient - you need boots on the ground to secure territory and I feel that Cameron has not been completely honest in talking about the alleged 70000 syrian rebels who will allegedly carry out this role. It lot of them have been stated to be ISIS supporters so this is a big step in the dark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gardengirl Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 No time has been lost, bombing began during the night; presumably the four bombers were on stand-by ready for the vote, in which I gather the majority was bigger than expected despite Cameron's outburst the previous evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quillan Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 I am very saddened that they have voted to bomb, this will be another dark day in British history just like when we decided to bomb and invade Afghanistan and Iraq. I am also saddened to know that I have become a terrorist supporter, something I never knew myself. Apparently there are another confirmed 223 terrorist supporters in our very own parliament, the intelligence services will have their work cut out for sure. I am considering packing a small case this morning in readiness for when the come and cart me off to prison although I guess I am lucky in that my skin colour is not any shade of brown. As you can see I am incredibly p*ssed off with Cameron's remark about a NO vote being support for terrorists. It is lucky that the only bit left of this forum software that continues to work is the list blocking expletives as there are a few names I would like to call him. It is also very odd to find myself agreeing with the likes of Corbyn and Salmond, two people I normally despise. At least Corbyn gave him a few seconds to apologise which he failed to do. I am staggered beyond belief that a British PM could say these things. As to the effectiveness of the raids, well bearing in mind that the Royal Saudi Air force have exactly the same bombs and a shed load more money than use proves that this is not to give a military advantage but simple politicking on Cameron's behalf. Still good news for those who have been working on the Chilcot report, they will have another job in the not to distant future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 '' the Royal Saudi Air force have exactly the same bombs ''I don't think that the Saudi Air Force have Brimstone, In fact I don't think that any other Air Force uses Brimstone - at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekJ Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 Yes they do and the are using them in the Yemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
powerdesal Posted December 3, 2015 Share Posted December 3, 2015 You are quite correct Derek, my error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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