EU Referendum

[YCCMB]

Off the top of my head...

What, pray, are we going to be selling to Asian markets? As far as I'm aware, the U.K. is largely these days a provider of services and not a manufacturing economy.

And forgive me if m wrong, but those few products we do still make may also require modification for Asian markets, and translation of instruction manuals. So no change there.

We currently have quite low unemployment in the UK. no thanks, some will say, to migrants coming over here, simultaneously stealing our jobs AND milking our benefits system (one day, I'll find out how that works).

Now, it's perfectly possible, of course, that more UK nationals who are currently unemployed will get work if there's less immigration...and wages will have to rise because most of them won't get out of bed for the minimum wage, so our cost of production and services will rise. Which could be OK, Because the pound will be so weak that at a pinch, we could still be competitive in the export field. It could also be true that many of the people currently unemployed ARE, in fact, doctors, nurses, teachers, or even desperately keen to wipe the nether regions of old people, or pick leeks in deepest Lincolnshire. I guess the only way to find out is to try, right? I mean, they haven't wanted to come out and admit it thus far, so they were probably just waiting..

It might well be that some of the thousands of Brits who "retired" at 50 will be motivated to get off their protected pensions and do something.....

[idun]

powerdesal interesting post.

[Rabbie]

Thank .you RH and YCCMB for your sensible contributions to this debate. Now a few thoughts of my own. The Leave side have endevoured to make much of the possible entry of Turkey to the EU and the possible formation of an EU army. Both of these are not likely to happen for a very long time if at all. They oppose the EU army on the grounds it would weaken NATO being seemingly unaware that Turkey was a founder member of NATO and one of only two members that had a land frontier with the Soviet Union. Seems a bit like muddled thinking to me.

Many of those people I know who want to leave and  who are not racist or xenophobic seem to be hoping for a return to Britain's imperial past, forgetting that in the sixties and seventies before we joined, there were strikes, power cuts, devaluation and even a three day week. They ignore the real possibility that an Exit win may well trigger a second Scottish referendum and chaos in Northern Ireland. Michael Howard says british law would decide but which british legal system -English, Scottish or Northern Irish.

A devaluation will hit a lot of people of all ages very hard especially in the short term. Imports will immediately go up in price.

I have yet to see a convincing case being made for leaving - least of all by the official campaign

[powerdesal]

'' BTW any house wife 'sur le continent' knows that instruction manuals come in multiple languages including Chinese and have done for many years......maybe industry should try the same ;-) ''

It's quite an amusing point in our household that instruction manuals for items bought in France come in a host of languages.........but rarely in English - strange that !

It doesn't actually matter as we both read French ( and German to a minor extent ).

[Jazzer]

Getting back to the original thread, the quality of debate on both sides has been dreadful. The hypocracy of some is unbelievable. The following quote from Boris( Feb 2016) is nearer the truth.

" Leaving would cause business uncertainty , while embroiling the government for years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements so diverting energy from the real problems that have nothing to do with Europe."

He refused to deny on the Today programme recently that he had written 2 articles for the Telegraph, one setting out thee Remain argument and the other for Brexit, and when he had finally made up his mind he telephoned to give the go ahead for the relevant article!

I am sure there are others on the remain side.

[YCCMB]

There is only one thing that we can be certain of, which is that, when we all wake up on Friday morning, it will be to the same country, the same problems and the same issues we had on Thursday night, at least as far as we are each, individually concerned.

If you were waiting for an operation in an NHS hospital on Thursday, you will still be waiting on Friday. If you couldn't afford to rent a flator buy a house, you still won't be able to.

And quite honestly, whichever way the cookie crumbles, it will, for most people except politicians, be a case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" to coin a phrase from Mr.P.Townshend.

I am fairly certain, because it's exactly what happens every General Election, that the majority of the Great British Public, if not actually disappointed by the outcome, will certainly find myriad ways to be disappointed if their lives haven't been personally enriched beyond measure by a week on Thursday. Indeed, I can see that f "Leave" wins, and we don't have five new hospitals and a hundred new schools by Christmas, there may well be some discontent. Woe betide us if we haven't negotiated a hundred new trade deals, reached full employment and bricked up the tunnel by then, as well.

Every elected government I can remember has been accused of "failng" to achieve anything it hasn't managed in the first fortnight, so I can't see this one being any different.

It is my great good fortune that within a couple of weeks, I shall be in the land of no permanent Internet for a couple of months. A s long as the result doesn't affect Team Sky being in the Tour de France, I'll be fine.

[idun]

We are soon going to see aren't we and it will be what it will be.

I shall be glad when it is all over, as I am a bit sick of the accusations that immigration and Turkey are the only reason anyone would vote to leave, and that I see and hear all too often.

My feelings about the behemoth that is the EU are considered and take into account a multitude of things, as there is far more to my thinking .........and the above, are simply very minor addendums to my initial thinking.

[Gardengirl]

Some interesting posts and very interesting points in them, some of which I found pretty unbelievable.

Thinking about the article on how voting would run, according to age and education level; we are both 70+ and are voting to remain in, one son (40) not university-educated as he was fed up with exams aged 18, is also voting to stay in, while his wife (38), university-educated, is voting to leave.

We actually discussed the decision with our son and DIL at length when we were finally making up our minds, as our votes could possibly have changed - they and our grandchildren are the future, we will have more limited time under any new regime if the vote is to leave.

Our son holds our proxy votes as we weren't confident that they would arrive in France in good time - wrongly, as it turns out, as quite a number of you posted about their arrival.

I think that if the vote is to leave, our country would eventually do well but the chaos I think we would have for the first few years would be a huge price to pay. It could split the UK and possibly the EU, as people in other member countries pushed for a vote too.

Of course the EU needs changing, but a UK that played a proper role in it, along with other countries with similar beliefs, could change it very much for the better.

[Judith]

It may be me, but I stopped reading halfway through the post offered by PD of someone else's opinion ... far too long on a hot, sweltering day to take such a rant to heart since I voted remain weeks ago by post.

But to put in my ha'pennorth - going backwards to revisit old haunts rarely works, as someone said once - if you step into a stream, step out again and then step into the stream again, you do not step into the same water, because the water in the the stream has flowed on.

What do the leave campaign think we can achieve by going backwards?  The future is ALWAYS found by moving forwards.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

I shall be glad when it is all over, as I am a bit sick of the accusations that immigration and Turkey are the only reason anyone would vote to leave, and that I see and hear all too often.

[/quote]

I think this because these are the two things that the official Leave campaign are going on about now that their maths about our EU contributions have been called into question to put it kindly. Other more cynical than me might say they are being economical with the truth.

[nomoss]

Maybe the best way would be the Irish solution.

Vote to leave, or stay in, the EU, county by county.

That should satisfy everyone, shouldn't it.

Or maybe not.....................

[idun]

 ROFL, Rabbie, thanks for that.

Economical with the truth............ politicans?  They all are as far as I am concerned, very very few I would trust with anything at all! ..... and that no matter their in or out views.

Harriot Harman was whinging on tv yesterday .............. annoying given air time because of her colleague's death. Saying that politicans are distrusted and suffer venomous attacks these days in a tone that said that it was not 'right' ............and yet no comment as to why the public feels like this. Maybe she should look at her career in the Blair govt and subsequent roles and see how the public 'liked' all her and her cohorts deeds.

[YCCMB]

Ah yes, the same Harriet Harman who waxed lyrical last week in the wake of the murder of Jo Cox, by saying that MP's should be all about walking freely among their constituents. Only that's also the same Harriet Harman who royally peed off her own constituents by walking round Peckham with a police escort, wearing a stab-proof vest.....

[vivienz]

I've been sitting on the fence since all of this kicked off and, to tell the truth, I'm still sitting there but I can feel my centre of gravity moving towards the remain side.

I've listened to and read endless comment on the arguments for both sides and have come to a few firm conclusions.  The first is that I'm no economist and never will be, and so I have a far greater chance of winning the lottery than accurately predicting the future 10 years hence, whichever way the vote goes.  I think this is equally true of politicians, leaders of companies and bureaucrats, too.  I am confident, though, that if the vote is to leave, things will be chaotic for anything up to 10 years.  Together with my husband, we run a very small (micro) manufacturing company and over 90% of our goods are exported to Europe.  We are also in the last 10 year run up to retirement. 

I could vote for noble principles of the independence of the UK, but I reckon that we will still be governed by a bunch of elite bureaucrats and politicians and my individual voice will count for little.  On the other hand, I can vote to remain in the hope that I can have some certainty over the last decade of my working life and a hard-earned retirement, or as much certainty one can have in UK manufacturing. 

Immigration and the finances of the country and Europe as a whole are rather like abstract ideas for me - I can appreciate the arguments but can't change much.  So, I'm going with the completely selfish choice.  I don't think that the principle of this is any different to what all the other self-serving public voices are doing in the end, though.

[Russethouse]

Ebaynut: just thought you would like to see one of yesterday's Trumps tweets :

I am "the king of debt."That has been great for me as a businessman, but is bad for the country. I made a fortune off of debt, will fix U.S.

5:55 PM - 21 Jun 2016

Such a glowing reference - would you really want a man who made his fortune out of debt and at the cost of employees and government, running the country ?

[ebaynut]

[Russethouse]

Yes! rather like Boris 's Independence Day closer last night - it's all icing and no cake.....too many clever remarks and not enough substance...

Ebaynut, rest assured If Boris and Trump triumph we'll make a special thread for you to deal with complaints ;-)

[ebaynut]

I find rather odd the comments from the government about our GDP will fall

if we leave the EU. But where does all the money from this high GDP go, why to

the global multinational companies who now run the world with their brought

politicians and not the workers, its a know fact that the richest few get richer

while the workers get poorer. Many have zero hours contracts, so have no hope

for the future. So many claim working tax credits, as their wages are so low,

even police officers have do this.

 

Why do the politicians not do something to stop it, well its simple, they

are lining their own pockets. Have a look at how much they charge for a speech.

Tony Blair has been paid as much as £100K a head for speaking to people.

 

No-one pays that much to hear someone speak, its just a legal way to give him

payments, and win favours from him.

 

Politicians who took us in the European exchange rate mechanism at the end

of the eighties, they sure knew what they were doing . I can remember ‘enjoying’

Interest rates at nearly 16%, great when you have a large mortgage and two young

kids.

I was one of the ones who was able to make this pay back in the mid/late

nineties as there were so many people who had lost their homes bargains were

everywhere, but what of all those people (and these were mostly genuine British

people, being before the flood gates had been opened up by Blair) they lost

everything in this government master plan.

 

Then they wanted to take us into the Euro, that would have been a major

disaster as well, why the Brown did not I really don't know, it was the sort of

thing I would have expected from him after selling all the gold off at rock

bottom prices.

 

And now they wish to try to tell us we are better of in the EU, they took

us in by deception, we were promised a referendum years ago, but Blair sneaked

in the treaty and said we did not need a vote on it.

 

Now the country is flooded with people from overseas, most of who will vote

remain, it is sad to see the lack of faith the people in this country have, in

our ability to take back our place in the world.

 

I see Rabbie at the end of your posts you have a new ‘ditty’       There are some causes worth dying for - there are no causes worth killing for" Albert Camus       That is the sort of comment you believe in I guess, so the Germanys plans to invade the UK back in the war, would  have not made you want to kill anyone then who tried to invade this country, rape the women and kill your mother ???   Just so long as you would not have to do it, you would not mind others if they did I guess.   No wonder you don't believe in the UK, I wonder are you even English/British??

[ebaynut]

R/H wrote,

Yes! rather like Boris 's Independence Day closer last night - it's all

icing and no cake.....too many clever remarks and not enough

substance...

Ebaynut, rest assured If Boris and Trump triumph we'll make a special thread for you to deal with complaints ;-)

[ebaynut]

Betty wrote,

There is only one thing that we can be certain of, which is that, when

we all wake up on Friday morning, it will be to the same country, the

same problems and the same issues we had on Thursday night, at least as

far as we are each, individually concerned.

Finally we agree on something. [:D] 

[Chancer]

You can count me in for a threesome on Friday [:D]

 

Whichever way it goes the net effect will be like that of the millenium bug.

 

I didnt give a flying **** about that either, I recall being at the massive fête we organised for our village and there were loads of people genuinely in fear of lord only knows what when midnight came.

 

The Brexit campaigns have certainly created lots of fear and as a consequence other undesirable emotions.

 

Modern day society, business and governments thrive on creating a state of fear, have a read of the Michael Crichton book of the same name.

[Russethouse]

>>Now the country is flooded with people from overseas, most of who will vote remain<<

If most of them had a vote you would be right, but a very great many don't have one so you may rest assured whatever the decision it will be the British who make it

[Rabbie]

[quote user="ebaynut"]

I see Rabbie at the end of your posts you have a new ‘ditty’       There are some causes worth dying for - there are no causes worth killing for" Albert Camus       That is the sort of comment you believe in I guess, so the Germanys plans to invade the UK back in the war, would  have not made you want to kill anyone then who tried to invade this country, rape the women and kill your mother ???   Just so long as you would not have to do it, you would not mind others if they did I guess.   No wonder you don't believe in the UK, I wonder are you even English/British??

[/quote]Once again, EBN, you seem to have got some things wrong so allow me to respectfully correct you.

Firstly I took the Camus quote to refer to people like the Orlando killer and the murderer of Jo Cox and not to wars or protecting family. I did not take it to be about self-defence. As I was in the Army I am not a pacifist so you guess incorrectly.

I do believe strongly in the UK which is why I believe we should remain in the EU. In fact I think there is a high risk of the UK breaking up if there is a win for Brexit.

Also I can assure you that I was born British from a long line of  British citizens. My father successfully traced back our ancestry for more than 400 years. However you were right on one point(the law of averages does sometimes work) I am not English but live in England and have many english friends.

Finally I always feel that the first person to resort to derogatory remarks to be one who is losing the argument.

[alittlebitfrench]

It would be very funny if the UK voted out and then went on to win the Euro 2016. That would be fantastic. The irony.

Would they have to give back the cup ?

[Gardengirl]

Chancer, I remember a lot of people we knew at the time of the Millennium being extremely worried about what would happen and I've sensed the same worries in ordinary people about the referendum.

My husband was offered large amounts of money at that time as many large companies were so concerned about the so-called Millenium bug.

I haven't noticed any such panic by large companies about the referendum. However, according to the UK news this morning, large numbers of Footsie 100 companies as well as many smaller companies had written to The Times (?) today, pushing to Remain.

Several people, including our cheese seller, Claude, have said loud and clear that they will defend our right to stay in France if the vote is to leave, as we are proper locals of several years' standing. I do wonder what they think will happen on Friday morning, however, it's been nice to have them willing to stick up for us.