the wider picture

[Gluestick]

Well put, PD.

Why did a majority of UK voters demand to leave the EU?

Well, I believe my earlier post, this morning, rather explains why!

Here

I was speechless with incredulity when I read Barnier's latest idiotic nonsense!

[:-))]

[Pommier]

For an insight into why people voted 'out', take a look at the Get Britain Out Facebook page.

[woolybanana]

Looked at several of these Facebook sites and am satidfied I am right; not a fact amongst them.

I think they prove my case.

[mint]

[quote user="NickP"] Although it does appear that the "remainers" who live abroad do think that the system should be for their benefit; rather than what the majority of UK residents want.[/quote]

Ah, Nick, I am pleased that you say "it does appear" but, in truth, you do NOT know what remainers who live abroad think, so I am afraid that you are just making an assumption that may or may not be true.

Some survey was done in Spain at the time of the referendum and there were people who said that they voted LEAVE even though they wanted to continue to live in Spain.

So, I don't think that, unless you have spoken to EVERY expat who was eligible to vote and who indeed voted, you could make assumptions that expats just "think that the system should be for their benefit"........that is a VERY sloppy statement, NOT based on any sort of proper research.  

[Gluestick]

Ah Minty, I feel you are being unfair to Nick...

After all, he did state "It appears".

And this is, for myself, the inescapable conclusion from the many posts by clearly remain voting ex-pat Brits who live permanently overseas. e.g. France.

Let us be honest: we are all pretty damned selfish and tend to cast our little cross, at times, for the political party who offer inducements which favour and benefit ourselves.

After all, it takes significant moral courage to vote for things which may well impact our lifestyles and cost us money!

Naturally, the campaign managers, PR agents, advertising agency account holders etc, know this full well; which is precisely why a swathe of British voters, for example, vote Tory.

In general, people abhor the concept of short term pain for long term gain.

Add this psychological reality to the dreaded Quinquennial Act (Must be a General Election least every five years and no more), then it is no real wonder nothing of any substance is achieved.

Let alone the now urgent paradigm shifts and quantum leap changes European socio-economies require.

A party which commits its nation to painful measures over the long terms will never ever see such enacted; as the voters will decide they hate the medicine, and vote for a diametrically opposed party, before such changes can enjoy any measured affect in real terms. Mainly since system drag and embedded inertia take oodles of time to overcome.

Excellent current example: in the not too distant future, Britain faces a massive and serious electricity supply problem: demand is rapidly outstripping potential supply.

However, for far too many years, politicians, action groups, etc, have all been arguing and faffing around.

Let's just bloody hope that the Global Warming/Climate Change furore, aint wrong and in point of fact, Europe is entering another cyclical climate event and we are headed for a short rapid cooling period, as happened in circa 1600 to 1900, 'cos we'll all freeze to death!

(Which I believe is happening: but this is yet another argument).

[NickP]

I've not spoken to all the voters and you know that, any more that the accusers of racism have interrogated every one of the 52% who voted to leave on their opinions on race and immigrants. My assumption as you call my opinion is based on the rantings of the remoaners on the Anglo/French forums.

[woolybanana]

No, Nickodemus, you are so wrong; there has been a total failure to make the intellectual case for leaving beyond the regular bleat that 'we are better of out there'. My case is not as a moaner because I think their is a strong case for staying (which was never made either because of the sneering lies of UKIP and their harnessing the nastiest elements).

[mint]

[quote user="NickP"]I've not spoken to all the voters and you know that, any more that the accusers of racism have interrogated every one of the 52% who voted to leave on their opinions on race and immigrants. My assumption as you call my opinion is based on the rantings of the remoaners on the Anglo/French forums.[/quote]

You do indeed have a point, Nick.  But I for one have NEVER said on here or elsewhere that the leavers are racists and anti-immigrants because I simply don't know.

Gluey, do you really read other peoples' posts, besides your own that is?  I had already said that Nick said "it does appear" and I gave him credit for qualifying his post in those words. 

I am always ultra careful with the language I use and also do tend to dissect quite clinically the language of others.  No great credit claimed there:  it's just the way I was trained.

The other thing is, I do believe that dissatisfied rantings are not confined to one side or the other. 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="mint"]

Gluey, do you really read other peoples' posts, besides your own that is?  I had already said that Nick said "it does appear" and I gave him credit for qualifying his post in those words. 

 

[/quote]

Well, Minty, this was what you wrote:

"Ah, Nick, I am pleased that you say "it does appear" but, in truth, you

do NOT know what remainers who live abroad think, so I am afraid that

you are just making an assumption that may or may not be true."

Now, none of us can really know what anyone else is actually thinking.

And I do agree with Nick, so many of those posting in favour of a continued EU membership, clearly had/have a personal axe to grind. Rather than considering the Pros and Cons holistically and subjectively.

[mint]

I don't really know if staying in the EU is a good or a bad thing overall.  There are simply too many factors to consider.

My feeling, and it's only a feeling and may be right or wrong, is that it's better to stay in and attempt to change the things that we don't like from within and as a fully-paid up member.

My principal worry is about security, far more than about the economy.  I have no great faith in May or any of her people to negotiate a good deal.  Far worse, I am not at all sure that they even know what they want from the negotiation.

OTOH, I genuinely do believe (and I have voiced this many times on here) that the EU will be no more, given time.  Put another way, there will be nothing for us to leave. 

[Gluestick]

[quote user="woolybanana"]No, Nickodemus, you are so wrong; there has been a total failure to make the intellectual case for leaving beyond the regular bleat that 'we are better of out there'. My case is not as a moaner because I think their is a strong case for staying (which was never made either because of the sneering lies of UKIP and their harnessing the nastiest elements).[/quote]

Utterly inane comment, Wooly!

If anyone told "serial lies", then it was those trying to brainwash the British voter to vote IN; which include Dodgy Dave, Osborne, Ken Clark, IMF, Bank of England, OECD, Goldman Sachs, J P Morgan and Co, Institute of Directors, CBI, and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

The Leave camp, on the other hand, assembled a most powerful boy, which included The Bruges Group, and 250 leading  businesses including JCB and Dyson.

Lies, renamed "Spin" are the lifeblood of both politics and journalism...

[woolybanana]

Ah, Gluey, you have finally understood that all these discussions are inane because there is no difference either way that can be measured in a time scale we might call foreseeable, which brings me back to the racist Brexit campaign...... . It was the only way Brexit could be pulled off.

[Chancer]

This thread started with a Guardian article containing comments from British subjects living abroad in other EU countries, I read all the comments carefully and from what I saw Nicks comment copied below was bang on the money, so in the context of the thread, the article and what was said within his comment was in my view 100% correct. It should not be taken to mean that all remainers living abroad think the same way (this thread shows otherwise) any more than one should say that all the voters for Brexit are racists.

 

Although it does appear that the "remainers" who live abroad do think that the system should be for their benefit; rather than what the majority of UK residents want.

 

I am not concerned whether the Uk remains or leaves but as an onlooker I have found the reactions of people fascinating, fear and uncertainty brings out the very worst in many and it started immediately first thing the following day, it calmed a bit but the fear and insecurity remain and whilst for some it has diminished as they get on with life just as they have done for any other setback or dissapointment, for others the longer the uncertainty drags on the greater the insecurity and the uglier the manifestation of it.

[richard51]

Gluestick wrote

"Now, none of us can really know what anyone else is actually thinking.

And I do agree with Nick, so many of those posting in favour of a continued EU membership, clearly had/have a personal axe to grind. Rather than considering the Pros and Cons holistically and subjectively."

I now see where you are coming from - no objective reasoning

[woolybanana]

Have a wander through some of the Facebook Brexit pages and you will find nothing but prejudice, ignorance, covert racism and irrational stupidity.

Nickodemouse seems to think that noone can be in favour of UK continuing to be a member of the EU if they do not have a personal axe to grind.

If I have an axe to grind with anything, it is the UK's inability to understand the EU and make it work for her own interests, rather than constantly idling shouting abuse from the sidelines.

[lindal1000]

I've seen nothing in any of Woolly's posts to suggest he has a personal axe to grind?

I think the people with the most to lose from brexit are the younger generation who will be denied to opportunities we have enjoyed. They may well have axes to grind in the future.

I agree with you Woolly about the posts on Facebook etc. but even there I have detected a slowing down of righteous indication and shouts of OUT means OUT. In fact some of the ranting is very reminiscent of the "Life of Brian". Maybe the Russian hackers have other jobs to do now. I actually think the EU will be better without the UK. It may well change and adapt some of it's principals and ambitions, but in many ways the UK has been a thorn in it's side for a long time.

[powerdesal]

What opportunities will be denied to the younger generation, in comparison with the opportunities we have enjoyed ?

Before the UK joined the common market ( or the EU if you prefer ) my generation had the opportunity to travel throughout Europe, to get jobs in Europe, to move to and live in Europe.

The younger generation will have the same opportunities.

[cajal]

[quote user="lindal1000"]I agree with you Woolly about the posts on Facebook etc. but even there I

have detected a slowing down of righteous indication and shouts of OUT

means OUT. [/quote]

Isn't that like going to the hairdresser to obtain an insight into a solution to the Syrian crisis?

[EuroTrash]

"Before the UK joined the common market ( or the EU if you prefer ) my generation had the opportunity to travel throughout Europe, to get jobs in Europe, to move to and live in Europe."

That's true. I think it needed more preparation and research and planning. But I also think that's no bad thing.

I'm not saying there aren't valid arguments against Brexit, but I don't think claiming that Brits won't be able to travel or live in Europe any more, is one of them.

[Chancer]

[quote user="woolybanana"]Have a wander through some of the Facebook Brexit pages and you will find nothing but prejudice, ignorance, covert racism and irrational stupidity. [/quote]

 

"Some" being the operative word.

I am not a Facebook user so cannot say with any authority but it does seem to me that many use it primarily to re-inforce their views or insecurities, a shame as it could equally be used to broaden minds.

[andyh4]

Powerdesal wrote:

What opportunities will be denied to the younger generation, in comparison with the opportunities we have enjoyed ?

Before the UK joined the common market ( or the EU if you prefer ) my generation had the opportunity to travel throughout Europe, to get jobs in Europe, to move to and live in Europe.

The younger generation will have the same opportunities.

Ah the good old days of the 60s and before. Things have moved on and what opportunities may or may not be denied to young people in the near future will depend heavily on any agreements reached, but some examples of what might become blocks for the young of the future wishing to broaden their experience by being in Europe:

1. Access to universities may become more difficult, more expensive (universities cannot differentiate on charges to EU nationals but can and do charge additional levies on non-EU nationals) and might even require all fees for the full course up front.

2. Denial of EU research grants - funding for individuals as well as equipment - for those wishing to do cooperative/collaborative research work in the UK as well as in the EU. Would a UK government (be able to) make up the difference? So many projects today are collaborative and involve research workers in universities and research institutes across the EU and beyond. I can see prestigious colleges like those in Oxbridge still managing to continue working with Berlin and Bratislava, but would that be the case for colleges in Sunderland, Dundee or Worcester?

3. You are right that before the EU/EEC British citizens did manage to work in EU countries. The current rules state that to do so now if you are a non-EU citizen you have to prove that there is no EU citizen available that could do the job. If you work for an international company like a desalination technology company (you?) or as a logistics "expert" for a multinational chemicals company (me), then these companies have teams of people who will do the necessary, have the contacts and will smooth the many waves. If you are an individual, who for the sake of argument wants to set up some sort of IT platform and market in Austria, you may well have enormous difficulties in getting permission to work in Austria and you might even find that you could not live in Austria for more than 90 days per year. As for the plumbers, builders, electricians and swimming pool specialists who see the opportunities of working in warmer/different climbs, I think they would be on a hiding to nothing to demonstrate unique skills and permission to work would be denied.

How much of this might come to pass will depend on the final agreements, but the harder the Brexit, the more likely that these barriers will be imposed. Currently it does not look good.

Edited to add: I hear, but have not seen any confirmation, that access to some Erasmus courses are already being curtailed or suspended for British students.

[mint]

Andy, hasn't Mrs May reassured some industrial companies like Nissan and farmers though she will not, of course, reveal what she has promised them?

Hasn't Hammond said that research and places of learning will have all their grants preserved?

When students from overseas are denied access to our universities or voluntarily choose not to come to study in the UK, I wonder how many of the lesser universities will be financially untenable?

Norman might bear me out in that I have grave fears for our wonderful music colleges and indeed orchestras and other music ensembles were we not to be able to engage musicians from abroad.

As for the devolved governments, they have indeed been promised development grants as at present but how long do you think those promises will last?

Still, nevermind, we will have CONTROL!  Though control of what is still to be established![:'(]

[cajal]

andyh4 wrote:

1. Access to universities may become more difficult, more expensive

(universities cannot differentiate on charges to EU nationals) but can

and do charge additional levies on non-EU nationals) and might even

require all fees for the full course up front.

Try explaining that one to an English, Welsh or N Irish youngster wishing to study in Scotland.

But then for every negative there is a positive

[lindal1000]

Facebook and Twitter activity were the only things that significantly predicted the win for Trump and the Brexit vote. Opinion polls got it wrong, but in both cases 'leave' and 'trump' had greater social media activity than the opposition. You may think it unimportant but the respective campaigns took it seriously. That's why I've started to read discussions there, from all sides. It's more up to date than the news.

[cajal]

[quote user="lindal1000"]Facebook and Twitter activity were the only things that significantly predicted the win for Trump and the Brexit vote. [/quote]

........and of course, not forgetting, our very own ebaynut