Permanent residence for EU citizens in UK

[nomoss]

During PMQ's today, Theresa May was asked how the government plans to process permanent residence applications from some 3 million EU citizens living in the UK, which, if dealt with at the current rate, would take about 50 years.

She replied by sarcastically asking whether the questioner had heard of modern technology, as applications are now made online, inferring that residence permits would be issued within a very much shorter time, without actually stating how long......

Is this really a fact? I find it hard to believe that applying online does not require any human intervention, with inevitable delays, and that the majority of applications are made on line anyway..

Also, the link below states that EEA (which includes the EU) citizens who are "qualified persons", who have lived more than 5 years in the UK, and their family members, automatically have permanent residence status.

[url]www.gov.uk/eea-registration-certificate/permanent-residence[/url]

I'm wondering why she didn't she mention this, which would surely considerably reduce the number of applications, assuming that all the people concerned know about it........

I'm also wondering whether a similar automatic status is applicable to Brits

in France, and if there is a streamlined online process available to

gain proof of rights to reside here?

[EuroTrash]

I don't think TM has a clue, she was simply dodging the question.

Either that, or they have improved their technology and their systems massively in the last three months (without telling anybody), Back then there was reportedly a backlog of 100,000 applications, and "Mr Hatton explained that, under the current system of obtaining permanent residency, EU citizens living in the UK are required to provide the Home Office with evidence that many are unable to obtain," And now, suddenly TM says there is no problem. She must have a magic wand if that is true.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/immigration-eu-citizens-brexit-referendum-deportation-home-office-3-million-a7451476.html

[NormanH]

nomoss:

I'm also wondering whether a similar automatic status is applicable to Brits

in France, and if there is a streamlined online process available to

gain proof of rights to reside here?

I went through the laborious process of obtaining a carte de séjour in the days pre 2002 or about then when they became no longer required. I had to prove that I was financially independent, and already had private health cover (since I had just arrived and had not yet built up entitlement by having paid côtisations).

I also had to provide translated documents to create an equivalent to the French livret de famille . To be honest it was almost what is now required to apply for French nationality.

Looking at what is asked for now I think that this is  the streamlined version, and it isn't as yet available on-line.

Just to re-new mine I had to go to the Préfecture, get a list of the documents they wanted (each département  is subtly different)   then go back a second time with them all complete, but the documents were less comprehensive.

[lindal1000]

I just went onto the home office website, and yes you can fill in an on line application if your application is very straightforward..ie 5 + years of continuous residence with continuous employment. You then need to print off the application and send it off with all the supporting documents. So the answer is yes but no but yes but.

[Department71]

Really don't know what the problem is, do you think Europe will make it easier for Brits?

France has its own special way to make it awkward for you.

[EuroTrash]

The point is, Dept71, that Brits who have been here for years already have the right to reside, and at some point we will presumably be required to obtain official proof of this. So it would be useful to know upfront what's likely to be involved.

Not a problem as such, just a bit of forward planning. Don't worry about it.

[andyh4]

Official proof is likely to a series of consecutive tax declarations and paid tax bills.

[EuroTrash]

"Official proof is likely to a series of consecutive tax declarations and paid tax bills."

Yes but what will we have to do with them in order to convert them into a carte de séjour? Will we be able to do it online relatively painlessly, will we have to go to the prefecture, are they going to get bogged down with a flood of Brits...

[lindal1000]

In the UK, which is what this thread was about, a P60 to prove continuous employment, seems to be enough. Without that you need utility bills and the like. Of course that is only for EU citizens. Once the UK leaves the criteria might change for the UK and France.

[mint]

I have not followed this topic too closely but I did read about some families (Dutch, Cypriot) who were written to and told to be prepared to leave the UK.

In one case, it was because the husband had been seconded to go elsewhere for a few years on account of his work and therefore his residence was not continuous.

These cases carried the names of the families and photos so I think they must be "real" stories and not "alternative facts" ones.

Talking about TM, did anyone see her on TV today, laughing and moving her shoulders up and down, and looking totally demented?

[NormanH]

[quote user="lindal1000"]In the UK, which is what this thread was about, a P60 to prove continuous employment, seems to be enough. Without that you need utility bills and the like. Of course that is only for EU citizens. Once the UK leaves the criteria might change for the UK and France.[/quote]

As I keep saying the criteria for France at least are already established for non-EU nationals.

[Department71]

But until it all kicks off no-one knows what will happen in the future. You can't expect the government to  state what will happen if Europe refuses to discuss anything until she starts the process. All this talk only gets the nervous upset. 

[lindal1000]

Well people are nervous and upset and I can't say I blame them. The EU has nothing to discuss because nothing has happened. The UK is the protagonist and it could help to alleviate the stress of EU citizens in the UK by guaranteeing them the right to remain regardless of how long they have lived there. Anyway it will be the UK who lose out. I notice that prominent leave campaigner JD Weatherspoons was complaining that if he couldn't recruit from the EU he wouldn't get enough staff and EU citizens were already losing interest in applying.

Another, I know the criteria are quite clear but I think the problem is that for many British citizens living in France on a basic pension they wouldn't meet the minimum income levels.

[NormanH]

[quote user="Department71"]But until it all kicks off no-one knows what will happen in the future. You can't expect the government to  state what will happen if Europe refuses to discuss anything until she starts the process. All this talk only gets the nervous upset. 

[/quote]

It is remarkable what brainwashing has gone on by the Brexiteers.

1) Europe (and in our case France) isn't changing anything. France already has regulations for  the residence of EU and non EU citizens in place.

2) It is Mrs May's government that is changing the status of British citizens from being European to being non European.

3) It is Mrs May's government that will decide on how the right of residence for EU citizens in Britain will change.

So given that all the changes are being driven by Mrs May it is a bit rich to say that you 'can't expect her to state what will happen'

 'Nor can one say that 'Europe refuses to discuss anything' with respect to the right of residence. The regulations are already in place and available for anyone to see.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/N19804

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCode.do?cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006070158

Lastly if 'no-one knows what will happen in the future' what were all the Brexit campaign promises about?

[nomoss]

The main object of my post was to try to determine if TM's assertion that the FO has moved into this century, and that residence permits can be obtained on line is correct.

It appears NOT to be true.

All that can be done on line is to complete an application, which will then undoubtably disappear into a black hole similar to that in which she suggested Corbyn is living.

That seems to me to be misleading Parliament - but no-one seems to realise - nor care.

[alittlebitfrench]

Nothing is going to change. Repeat after me, nothing will change. The French will still be allowed to work in the UK and British will still be allowed to work and retire to France.

What possibly may change is heathcare arrangements.

France cannot afford to have hundreds of thousands of retired British folk going back to the UK or prevented from living in France. Rural France will go bust.

France cannot afford to have an exodus of French people returning to France. Where are they going to work ?

The UK and France is connected by a train....which is French owned !!!!!!

The Uk represents France's biggest tourist market.

Nothing will change. There will be bilateral agreements between the two countries and that is it.

Even if Marine gets in (she could do) and French vote out of the EU, nothing will change.

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]Nothing is going to change. Repeat after me, nothing will change. The French will still be allowed to work in the UK and British will still be allowed to work and retire to France.

What possibly may change is heathcare arrangements [/quote]

Which is precisely the main worry of a very large number of retired Brits here, and no mention of healthcare for anyone retired has so far been made.

Also, I'm not convinced that the present politicos in power in the UK won't worry that the large percentage of people who voted to leave will not be satisfied unless a lot of of EU immigrants are removed from the country.

[alittlebitfrench]

There are more French people in the UK than British in France and the French have access to a free heath system.

There will be a reciprocal agreement between France and the UK.

France and the UK are so intrinsically linked there is no other solution.

Remember also, that a lot of heathcare in the UK is outsourced to France.

With regards to the very small minority who want all EU nationals kicked out, they will not have a say in the matter.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about. France needs the UK and the UK needs France. I really think this is a non issue. No one is going to commit economic suicide....especially not France. They have enough problems.

[NormanH]

Which is precisely the main worry of a very large number of retired

Brits here, and no mention of healthcare for anyone retired has so far

been made.

But health care is also covered by French regulations for both EU and non-EU citizens under the PUMA scheme.

The main change in moving status from EU to non-EU citizen is hat such things as the CEAM (EHIC in the UK) and the SI  may no longer apply. In that case British citizens in France will have to pay into the system rather than be paid for by the UK  as at present but that could be settled immediately by Mrs May saying that the UK will continue to pay the costs even without an S1 card.

That is not for France to say, and the French regulations on access to  health care for non-EU citizens are clear. There is no reason for France to change them just because of Brexit.  What does change is the status of  British citizens, and that again is  Mrs May's doing...

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]There are more French people in the UK than British in France and the French have access to a free heath system.

There will be a reciprocal agreement between France and the UK.

France and the UK are so intrinsically linked there is no other solution.

Remember also, that a lot of heathcare in the UK is outsourced to France.

With regards to the very small minority who want all EU nationals kicked out, they will not have a say in the matter.

I really don't know what all the fuss is about. France needs the UK and the UK needs France. I really think this is a non issue. No one is going to commit economic suicide....especially not France. They have enough problems.[/quote]

ALBF.

French in the UK are mainly quite young and working. Brits in France are mainly quite old and retired, which makes any reciprocal agreement quite unbalanced, and probably unlikely.

I don't share your touching faith in any government to do the right thing by me, nor even to do anything logical.

I was born in a Commonwealth country because my Mother joined my Father, who was stationed there well before the days before mass air travel.

I have been refused entry and messed around by the UK because I wasn't born there, and our son and his children are now also being messed around for the same reason.

Australia, where I lived, worked, voted, got married and had a daughter, will not allow me to return to live, although our daughter lives there.

To be fair, Australia did grant us Visas, subject to yet more medical checks, after waiting for just under a year, on condition we sold everything we owned outside Australia and put the proceeds there, but the job I was offered there no longer existed, and I was in Brazil by then.

The country where I was born will not give me a Passport because neither of my parents was born there.

Norman.

I am aware of the new PUMA situation, but fear that our income will not be considered sufficient to allow us to stay here.

[Gardian]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

My guess is that HMG will say that the healthcare entitlement (via an S1) will be honoured for 'existing' British citizens living in the EU, but that anybody choosing to emigrate w.e.f. (say) 1/1/19, will have to make their own healthcare arrangements.

This is of course wishful thinking on my part, but there is some logic and political sense behind it. It's a reducing commitment (as we die off !), it might to some extent placate the moaners who see the likes of us as living the 'life of Reilly' in the sun, and it wouldn't pi55 off half a million or so Expats.

[NormanH]

Norman.

I am aware of the new PUMA situation, but fear that our income will not be considered sufficient to allow us to stay here.

For info:

One person needs an income of 801€

a couple 1243€

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F12017

[andyh4]

Gardian

I understand the logic of what you are saying, and indeed it may be that this is what will happen. However because of the unbalanced age distribution mentioned above, it actually benefits the UK for its OAPs to get healthcare outside the UK, if only because it reduces the burdens on the NHS. Further when we look at France the UK only pays 70% of the cost of providing us with healthcare. If we were in the UK (or if people who might otherwise have moved to France post 2018) the UK would be bearing 100% of the healthcare costs.

Now I don't know the difference (if any) in costs of providing that care in the UK rather than in France. I doubt however if France would be nearly 50% more which would be required to make up the 30% difference.

[NormanH]

I think there is another point andy, but I may be wrong on the UK end so am open to correction.

The cost in France is for care actually consumed. That is if I don't see my Doctor or go to Hospital in a given year there is no cost to the UK for that period.

If I were in the NHS system I believe  my GP is given  a fixed sum for me each year, so even if I am not ill there is a fixed cost.

I think that probably France is a bit more lavish in its spending on a specific case  (see Judith's stay in Hospital for her hip operation in another thread) but that is balanced out by the fact that a lot of people don't cost anything in a given year.

As I said at the beginning I could be mistaken on the UK end.

[andyh4]

Your understanding is broadly the same as mine. However the elderly are more likely to consume the resource of the local GP - and further consume the resource of the hospital and other specialist care areas. So their costs are real and high.

Many health trusts seem to be running at a significant deficit and at some time the government is going to have to fill that gap with real tax money.