It's called sticking your head above the parapet

[woolybanana]

Fairness is what you are talking about, Nimt. I am sure that some could pay more tax. But UK is debt ridden, the books don't balance, the overall tax burden is higher than it has ever been.

The Tories have tried to get the debt under control and don't reckon they can do so for a few years yet. Remember that the debt was deliberately run up under the Brown administration, spending like crazy.

Remember that a 60% tax rate is actually about 75% if NI contributions are taken into account.

Both JC and McDonnell wish to tax to punish and redistribute when what is needed is good honest growth. Whether that can be achieved by Brexit or whatever I dunno.

[alittlebitfrench]

The UK would not be debt ridden Wooly if it had not wasted the money it has.

Pointless wars, trident, overseas aid that ends up in corrupt dictators...the list goes on.

[NormanH]

And Thatcher failing to create a sovereign fund for the income from North Sea oil.

[richard51]

Sorry Chancer, but in this instance I believe this claptrap rather than the DM or yourself.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-resistant-cladding-kensington-inquiry-latest-reynobond-london-a7792781.html

[richard51]

Nothing wrong with taxation to redistribute obscene wealth.

Why, btw, do we always have to stick to the mantra of "we must have growth". More is not always best and there are other monetary theories.

[woolybanana]

How much is obscene wealth? Is it someone who has worked hard all their life, built a big successful business and then sells out to retire, maybe a few years before the usual retiring age?

These definitions cannot be left to extremists like Corbyn and Macdonnell.

[richard51]

Nor, WB, can these decisions be left to extremists like Maggie May and the tory right-wing gang. They even probably worship Trump when they trip off to church on a Sunday.

[nomoss]

I happened to switch on the BBC News and watched the Grenfell fire develop almost from the beginning.

Although the cladding seemed to play a part in the spread of the fire, it also spread rapidly within the building, far away from where the outside was burning.

This made me think about the heavy spring loaded fireproof doors, which most of us will know from hotels, and how much temptation there is to wedge them open for convenience.

O searched for "removing fireproof doors" and found lots of interesting information, among which

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/AC1B4F18D05A4D82B52979C6465BBFE5_22804B80F85148BFBA15726034A0E9E5.asp#.WUPfF8ZLfcc

and

http://www.itv.com/news/london/story/2014-09-15/london-fire-brigade-warning-over-fire-door-removal/

[Grecian]

The next potential unelected UK tory prime minister is just as caring as May. When asked about cuts to the Fire Service by a Labour councillor, Johnson replied 'get stuffed'. Still I guess once a tory...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grenfell-tower-fire-boris-johnson_uk_594267c2e4b0d31854872fed?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

[Patf]

Grecian - this was a  point I made at the end of my first post of this thread. At the time BJ was invited to speak to James O'Brien on LBC about it, and he refused.

[Pommier]

I found it chilling that the residents association warned of the dangers in November last year.

If I lived in a tower block I wouldn't sleep easily (if at all)

[woolybanana]

The newly elected MP for the area, a Labour person, is braying about enquiries and guilt etc yet she was one of those who was on the committee which managed the building and must have been aware of the dangers and warnings of the residents association. Should she not resign if this proves to be right?

[richard51]

WB the answer from me must be yes. Same if it was a tory one.

Now thats a straight answer so I cant be a politician,

[Théière]

Where are the minutes of the meetings?

[nomoss]

My instinct is that the accident, as are most, was due to a combination of many coincident factors.

Maybe the exterior cladding played a part, but other possibilities could be the compromising of the integrity of the compartmentalisation during the improvement works, the addition of gas piping through communal areas, windows left open due to hot weather, interference with fireproof doors, or even their removal.

I hope the enquiry is thorough and exhaustive, and is not compromised by any hesitation in considering the responsibilities and actions of any residents.

I also wonder where people were in the habit of storing their refuse while waiting to carry it downstairs, - or do they have rubbish chutes in this type of building?

With collection intervals in the order of weeks, I imagine a block of some 120 flats must accumulate quite a lot of rubbish. Just a thought.

[Théière]

[quote user="nomoss"]

With collection intervals in the order of weeks, I imagine a block of some 120 flats must accumulate quite a lot of rubbish. Just a thought.

[/quote]

Well you always have had an imagination [;-)] collections are twice a week, once for rubbish the other for recyclables.

[richard51]

Nomoss makes some valid points that hopefully will be addressed in the enquiry. In terms of waste each type of waste is collected once a fortnight for our houses both in France and UK.

Its definitely a point of interest - were waste services more efficient in the more affluent areas or not - that should be explored. Don;t think it will though as quite a high % of the population will already know the answer methinks.

A high population density area should have rubbish collected much more frequently than less populated areas.

[richard51]

Just as an observation on human nature: yesterday I walked down to drop off a yellow bag waste in the bin down the road from us - at the exit to the hamlet which has a one way system in place. It was overflowing and so I cut across to the other bin site at the entrance to the hamlet where two yellow ones are located. Both contained hardly anything.

I must admit I usually throw it into the car and drop it off when going somewhere.

[nomoss]

[quote user="Théière"][quote user="nomoss"]

With collection intervals in the order of weeks, I imagine a block of some 120 flats must accumulate quite a lot of rubbish. Just a thought.

[/quote]

Well you always have had an imagination [;-)] collections are twice a week, once for rubbish the other for recyclables.

[/quote]

Thank you. I believe that having an imagination is a very worthwhile survival trait.

I used it quite a lot when helping with investigations into fires.

What day were the collections made, please?

[richard51]

Love it Nomoss.

BTW a lawyer friend of ours has made an interesting point: Public enquiries are controlled by the government. The best way to go is for an inquest to be held. Apparently it was commented on in "Newsnight" as well.

Whitewash?

[Théière]

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Théière"][quote user="nomoss"]

With collection intervals in the order of weeks, I imagine a block of some 120 flats must accumulate quite a lot of rubbish. Just a thought.

[/quote]

Well you always have had an imagination [;-)] collections are twice a week, once for rubbish the other for recyclables.

[/quote]

Thank you. I believe that having an imagination is a very worthwhile survival trait.

I used it quite a lot when helping with investigations into fires.

What day were the collections made, please?

[/quote]

Depends which area of the Borough, the ones I have worked on were Mondays and Wednesdays.

https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/bins-and-recycling/rubbish-and-recycling/estate-and-mansion-block-residents 

You'll be familiar with bin chutes and Paladins.

[andyh4]

I think Nomoss will be shown to be right.

In my experience of serious accidents there is rarely one single failure, but a whole series of minor failings, which given the wrong conditions leads to a serious or catastrophic incident.

We described this to staff as the Gruyere cheese effect.

A Gruyere cheese is full of holes (potential safety defects). You take a slice. then you put a second slice behind which blocks off many of the holes. Then a third that blocks of more and so on until all of the holes have been blocked off. Now it only needs one slice to move very slightly and you can still have a hole right through all the layers.

My guess is that we will find this is the case in this terrible incident. Lots of small (you might even say in their individual rights insignificant) issues that combined have led to tragedy.

Out of that it is highly likely that no one will be found to be specifically to blame - but really that should not be the point. The point should be that we should learn and correct the mistakes so that such a tragedy cannot possibly happen again.

[alittlebitfrench]

It is a bit obvious saying that it is probably down to a combination of factors. No ?

That building burnt down so rapidly because there was heat, fuel and oxygen. The fuel being the cladding. Without that cladding, there was nothing to burn. Concrete does not catch fire. Given I guess most windows were open because it was a hot day, it was easy for the fire to go inside and spread. Why do we need a 3 year public inquiry to work that one out ?

I am not saying there could not have been a major fire, but most people if not all would have escaped if it had not been cladded in a combustable material. So clearly it is the cladding that is blame.

WHO on earth would attach flammable material to the exterior of an apartment block ? What kind of mindset is that ? Any contractor worth his salt would have refused to do it.

Anyway, this has to be the most shocking thing I have ever seen both in terms of the disaster itself but also how it has been managed since. Why did they not send in the red cross or or the army to help the survivors ??

May, has to go. She is not fit for purpose.

[woolybanana]

I don't see what Teresa May has to do with installing the cladding.

The question of using cheaper cladding to save public money only becomes relevant if it was known that the stuff was potentially dangerous or did not do the job. In that case action up to criminal proceedings should be taken once the facts have been established.

The survivors will be properly taken care of doubtless and housed as soon as possible without the help of Red Cross or Army. Perhaps decent counselling might be the first requirement.

Public anger is very understandable but the exploitation of it by the local rentamob put up by Corbyn's lot is deplorable.

[ebaynut]

Mint wrote,

Ebaynut, if you are trying to imply that I somehow support the killing of youngsters who were out enjoying themselves at a pop concert, then you are truly nuts.

Having re-read my post, I fail to see how anyone could come to the conclusion that I was implying you supported the killings. Your capacity for spinning what I wrote would suggest that a career at CNN would be possible, had you not retired .

IMO, nothing wrong with "pointless subjects"..........one person's pointless is another's "essential to know"Smile [:)]

Indeed, I must perhaps remember this forum caters for people of 'all levels'

Of course, the fire, as you say, is an accident. But doesn't the word "accident" itself implies that it was preventable?

All accidents are preventable, a genuine accident is not malicious, a scum bag murdering Muslim with a bomb at a pop concert for kids is malicious, avoidable and preventable.

And you know, there ARE times when words are unnecessary........the Manchester atrocity was too much to take in as, in that case, the killing was deliberate, carefully planned and executed. In the face of such evil, what is there meaningful to say?

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do (and say) nothing!!!!!

Do take all the pot shots you want, I am perfectly strong enough to take them in my strideSmile [:)]

I am sure you are. ;-)

On your plan to redistribute wealth, I would point out, such a scheme already exists in the UK, and anyone can benefit from it. However it involves one getting off ones fat lazy ar5e, and going to earn it, instead of demanding the government provide everything for you.