Two minutes of your time

[Joh]

So did we all stop to remember?

Eleventh hour of the eleventh day,

From a personal point of view if in France we stop twice at French time and then again at GB time, well it saves confusion and we are guaranteed to get it right. 

Terry

[Dick Smith]

Yes, and I'll be at the local cenotaph on Sunday and at a smaller (just 6 of us) wreath laying.

[opas]

Of course we remember.

The girls did too,as the past 2 days in school has been all about the war(s).

Ours were invited to lead the procession to the memorial, where the mairie said a very nice speach(there was a bit that I did`nt understand whilst trying to interpret the last bit!)

Some beautifull flowers were laid, just a little saddened that more didn`t attend,probably about 40 people from a village of about 500 and ony a handfull were women.

Then I (Mr O is away at the moment) was invited to the salle de fete for a degestif, pity none of the men were under 50!

Joking apart, it was a very sombre day.

[Deby]

We went to our village ceremony.  It was lovely.  The children of the school (unfortunately just a handful) laid the beautiful flowers.  We had quite a few adults, all of varying ages and plenty of us ladies too.  Plus there were 3 English families too.  That went down really well with the locals who really appreciated the presence and the efforts to note this day.

Funny as you get older these things suddenly matter.

Deby

[La vieille]

Was in Paris a couple of weeks ago (went to Michel Sardou concert at l'Olympia) and went shopping in Galeries Lafayette, as one does.   I was talking to a shop assistant there who said she was going to London today, would the "grands magasins" be shut?   It took me a while to work out why she might think this, but eventually assured her that NOTHING stops the shops in London!

[Redcap]

Hi!,

We have only been in our village for 3 weeks, being from a military background it goes without saying that I wanted to attend the local ceremony.  My wife and stepson (13) attended at the Mairie, then followed the small procession of flags to the church where most of the others were already inside.  Following the church service we then followed the flags out to the memorial next to the church for speeches by the Maire after which a short walk to the cemetary and then back to the village hall where we had a drink. Following this the 65 and overs were treated to a meal.  We then went on to some French friends for drinks etc.

Having only been in the community for 3 weeks, it was an excellant way to meet the local people, and I beleive they were pleased to see us as a family attending.

Regards,

Bob

[Miki]

......being from a military background it goes without saying that I wanted to attend

Sorry Bob but that is not really, always the case is it. My Father and some of his mates, all old soldiers did not want to attend many of the Remembrance Sundays. He felt that he had served his time and of course, for a while he had missed his comrades that had died in WW2 but he never had the want to go to many Remembrance Sundays. So with him and others we knew, it was not a simple general case of "it goes without saying" one look at the towns in the UK over the last few decades show that most are girl guides, cubs and scouts and not too many old soldiers, past or present or not long out of the service. Not sure what it is like now though.

And yes, I was there today, don't know why, always have attended since living here, it's like a calling, my Father never went much as I said, maybe I do it for him and his lost mates, I just go. I  have visited the landing beaches, Dunkirk, places I knew he had been at but ask me why, I am lost for the most part, remembrance I guess. Remembering brave or frightened men but one can do that anytime, any place, like my Father..................

I was the only Brit in the small crowd today, just like previous years. No mention of the British either but I guess they feel they have no real need to do so, they lost men as well.

 

 

[Mutts]

We'll be in France on Sunday (14th) - are remembrance services likely to be held in most villages or is it restricted to larger towns only?

On a slightly different note, does anyone know if WW2 veterans gather on regular social occasions? Either Assocation des Internes Civils or Federation Interalliee des Anciens Combattants or similar?

Regards

Linda

[JohnM]

I know some of you will not understand this, but I fully support the act of remembrance and like the idea of wearing a Poppy to symbolise that remembrance. I also see the need to support the work of the British Legion, I don't mind gving money to help ex servicemen. But I do object to the fact that the two acts have become so inextricably combined. I should be able to give money to the RAFBF and still be able to wear a symbol of remembrance but I can't because the Poppy is the BL's property. As it happens, I've been using the same poppy for a few years and I just make a donation. I my mind I have separated the acts and I am happy. There, I said you wouldn't understand.

 

[Teamedup]

No I didn't and haven't for years now.

My Dad wouldn't have done either.

 

My thoughts are with the poor soldiers who were sent to Iraq and that is on a daily basis.

 

How far do we go back with these things, for me it is time that 11.11.1918 slipped into history.

 

ps We did give a donation to the British Legion last year. Saw JFM's post and thought that I would add that.

[Miki]

As far as I am aware, we have Armistice day here on the 11th of November and whatever day that falls on, is a public holiday and is the day everyone remembers the loss of people through the wars.

I might be wrong but I personally have not heard or been present at any Remembrance Sunday's where we have lived. 

 

[Dick Smith]

TeamedUp - Remembrance day is not simply about WW1, neither is the Poppy Appeal, both encompass all wars and those survivors who are still living and need financial support, even those from the Gulf and Iraq. The British Legion is for all ex-service men and women.

Miki - my father never showed any interest in Memorial services, despite WW2 service that would well qualify him as a 'hero' in The Sun (wounded at Dunkirk etc). But as you imply, the fact that he didn't doesn't mean that I shouldn't...

About the French not mentioning the British at memorial services - can anyone remember the French ever being mentioned at a UK one?

I can remember as a child when traffic stopped, and London was so quiet that we could hear the guns in Hyde Park from 12 miles away. Now we struggle to stop traffic past our memorial during the Sunday service.

[Paolo]

"How far do we go back with these things, for me it is time that 11.11.1918 slipped into history."

I find it moving that my countrymen made the pledge many years ago: "We shall never forget them". I consider it my duty and that of all peace-loving people to uphold that pledge through the generations. The First World War should never be forgotten, not just because of the meaningless slaughter of a generation, or because it was a 'just war', but because for the most part they did not ask to go, they were bl**dy well told to go.

It saddens me that there isn't a proper day of remembrance on the 11th, when the shops are shut for at least half a day and the massed armies of consumers are forced to think about something other than shopping for more clothes they could probably do without.

Paolo

[Teamedup]

The Onze Novembre is dedicated to WW1, there is also a day dedicated to WW2 and I live in France  and the original poster said did we remember on the 11th of November  and not Rememberance Sunday. Both these dates are jour ferie, which I will never quite understand.

I dug out my cheque book stub, we gave the British Legion £50 last year. Not a lot, but not a little either.

So how far back do we go with these things. Haven't our soldiers have been battling it out since time immemorial. The Boer War? Balaclava? or one's we could be proud of, perhaps? Waterloo? Agincourt? No for me it is time that WW1 slips into it's historical context.

Strikes me that we haven't learnt.... british troops have been 'told to go' to Iraq, somewhere where at least in the eyes of most of the world and the UN was an illegal act. So no, I'll keep my thoughts for those who are serving and risking (and some poor souls giving) their lives, on a political whim. 

[Miki]

About the French not mentioning the British at memorial services - can anyone remember the French ever being mentioned at a UK one?

Sore point with my Father I'm afraid.

He wouldn't ever come to France to stay with us. One reason; the channel still held a bit of a fear for him and two; he always felt the French should have done more to help the Allies and detested General De Gaulle enormously, just like many of his friends did. His opinion. Perhaps it would have been nice, if once in a while, the British were given just a tiny mention at one of the Armistice days I have attended. Friends elsewhere have said they do at the one they attend. I think why I mentioned it was, this was an area that the British (yes I know others as well) lost many lives, it might be nice to hear a mention of the British or the Allies, not just on D-Day.

 

[Dick Smith]

My father was quite opposite - he was in the rear guard falling back to Dunkirk, and he saw the French soldiers left behind, which upset and I suspect embarrassed him. He never visited France again, but always spoke warmly of the country and got on very well with French people we knew.

[Dick Smith]

"The Onze Novembre is dedicated to WW1, there is also a day dedicated to WW2 and I live in France  and the original poster said did we remember on the 11th of November  and not Rememberance Sunday. Both these dates are jour ferie, which I will never quite understand."

I think that when you have been invaded - at huge cost - twice in 25 years you might consider the ends of those wars to be significant dates worth celebrating, and when you have lost such a large proportion of your population you might get into the mood for commemoration.

To quote a Frenchman I met some years ago, "Pour comprendre la France il faut comprendre Verdun."

[letrangere]

"I think that when you have been invaded - at huge cost - twice in 25 years you might consider the ends of those wars to be significant dates worth celebrating, and when you have lost such a large proportion of your population you might get into the mood for commemoration.

To quote a Frenchman I met some years ago, "Pour comprendre la France il faut comprendre Verdun.""

Dick, you beat me to it, I was reading to the end and was about to post precisely this.  Incidentally, doesn't the French Ambassador play a role in the wreath laying at the Cenotaph on Whitehall?  I shall now climb up on my soap box and say that it appals me that so few people know much (if anything) about WW1 today.  And as outrageous as this may sound, I personally believe anyone planning on living in France should visit Verdun and read as much as they can about it, for the memory of what happened there is sketched deeply on most French people's psyche even today.

No, TU, it was not like any other War that British or any other troops had been involved in previously.  That is the precise point.  It was on a scale not just of casualties but of horror and destruction previously unknown.  The BEF that was all but wiped out in the autumn of 1914 was an army of men who had fought throughout the British Empire, many would have been in South Africa fighting the Boers, others in India fighting the Afghans.  But this army was all but obliterated in a period of a few short weeks, something that sent shock waves through Britain at the time.  They and the men who came after them should never be forgotten. 

Margaret

 

 

[Mistral]

We went to the ceremony in a nearby village (tiny village, big war memorial) I asked my son (10) if he had done anything about it in school. He hadn't, wasn't it about the war? he asked. I explained that we remembered people who had died in all wars; "so we can avoid such a waste again" he said, without prompting. I realised I had given him the British point of view, not the French one which is much more based on the end of the first world war and on the French victory. (yes, I said "French" - the first time I went to a rememberance service in France, it started with the words "La france a gangné la guerre" - I was a bit surprised)

Out of interest, france info said that there are only 15 "poilus" left in France (le monde said 14 -they must have lost one) Does anybody know how many British soldiers from WW1 are still alive?

[Russethouse]

There was an interesting discussion on this on Radio 2, Jeremy Vine Show yesterday. Rosie Boycott was of 'the consign WW1 to the history books' school of thought, suggesting we should also remember people like the train driver killed last Saturday evening. Nicholas Soames took a different stance and said the day was for the war dead, right up to the present day.

My father fought in WW2, he signed up at the beginning of the war before he was really old enough, so he could be with his mates. Like many he didn't speak about his war experiences and rarely went to the war Memorial on Remembrance Sunday ( I think he escorted me and later my sister when we went to Sunday school)but did go to the Service etc on the 50th anniversary. However we always, without fail, watched the Service of Remembrance from the Albert Hall and the wreath laying on the Cenotaph.

My father was buried on the 11th of November, 8 years ago, so of course I have my own thoughts on that day, but I think its up to each of us to think about who we want to, whether it be WW1 hero's, WW2 or soldiers now giving their lives for someone else's freedom (rightly or wrongly, that isn't the point)

BTW Rosie Boycott did make one valid point IMHO, in that the ceremony seems very tied up with the C of E, may be it could be more 'inclusive'.

[Maddie]

I remembered but sadly 4 minutes too late.  But better late than never. We weren't able to visit the ceremony in our village (not that I knew there actually was one apart from a small bunch of fresh flowers which are on the memorial this morning) as we work from France for a UK company and have UK bank holidays (more at Christmas - hurrrah) not French holidays, so we could not have gone anyway.

Despite having a degree in history, I know very little about the two world wars, which always astonishes my old man. However, I try to take time to remember those who lost their lives as a result of conscription or who volunteered and died in the most appauling conditions.  I don't necessarily focus on the professional soldiers of more recent times who choose to be soldiers and get paid for doing so.  I have great respect for them, don't get me wrong, and am grateful for them,  but I can't put them in the same category as those that had little or no choice.

Controversial I know, but then I am a bit of a pacifist at heart. I don't mean to offend anyone by this and I am sorry if this does cause offence.  It's not intentional but the way I feel.

Nicola

[Paolo]

"Does anybody know how many British soldiers from WW1 are still alive?"

This summer it was reported that there were 23 British survivors who had seen active duty, ranging in age from 103 to 108.

My view is that you cannot equate WWI with Iraq. Soldiers today may have been told to go to Iraq whether they agree with it or not (although they can refuse to go and not be shot for treason). But they are professional soldiers who joined the army out of choice, and going to war is part of the job description.

In WWI the men of Britain (and elsewhere) were told: right, everyone in this age group must now report for duty, we are going to send you to France where you will be invited to walk very slowly across open land into continuous machine gun fire, and if you don’t like it you will be shot by us.

As to why we should remember WWI and not Agincourt, well I suppose 1914 is where we draw the line as the start of the modern era, where the values, concerns, ideals and ideas of people are recognisably the same as our own.

There is a great film ‘The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp’ which traces the life of an army officer. At the beginning it is the time of the Boer War, and it’s all red uniforms, charging about on horses with swords drawn. At the end it is the blackout of WWII. Colonel Blimp is as lost in this new world as we would be any time before the early part of the 20th century. Now that’s what I call a contentious point!

Paolo

[Tresco]

I don't make any distinction between soldiers that are being wounded or dying now, or in the recent past, and those of previous wars. They all face the similar horrors.

As to where do you draw the line in remembrance, there is a point to thinking about previous conflicts, you could probably find continuing links between all major European conflicts up to and beyond WW2. One thing that occurs is the failings of the treaty made  after WW1, which started off being full of heady idealism and was considerably weakened  by the compromises made to the original idea. Some of these failings contributed to the climate in which WW2 started, so soon after the mood of 'never again'.

 

[Teamedup]

I have visited Verdun. At the site of the battle and in mid summer there were dutch cars, brit reg cars, german cars, belgium cars and apart from ours, all the others were local and more than likely those of employees.

Verdun, I've seen the Osserie. I've seen the village that was obliterated and shed tears there. We toured the whole place.

So where exactly were the french paying their respects? We went there twice during the week and it was the same both times.

WW1 was the start of 'modern' warfare, not surprising when one looks back on the rest of the technological leaps that were affecting the world at that time. However, when the gun and cannon were invented it must have changed warefare radically as would the arrow against sticks and stones.

That we have the luck to have a professional army is a good thing. What are people trying to say about those who join up now.... personally I have as much respect for them as I have for anyone in the past, it is simply the way things are now, and if necessary, any government would make a call all to arms and there would be those who would need forcing as there always has been.

No, I'll let WW1 slip into history now.

 

Incidentally, I still have no real idea as to why GB was EVER involved in WW1. The last thing I heard on Radio 4 implied that Churchill wanted it and it had never been a foregone conclusion that GB would get involved. History is a funny thing isn't it. If we hadn't got involved, then my grandmother's second husband wouldn't have been killed there in 1914, and she wouldn't have married my grandfather and had my mother and I wouldn't be here.

[Paolo]

As far as I can make out Britain entered WWI because Germany invaded Belgium on the way to France. Britain had a mutual agreement with Belgium that they would come to each other's help if attacked by another country (seems to have been a better deal for Belgium than GB). The whole of WW1, which started out as a minor Balkan affair, seems to have been set off by a tangle of such alliances across Europe. Looking back on it now it seems rather ludicrous that it was the rigid compliance with these agreements (for whatever ulterior motives) that split Europe into two sides and persuaded them that they were at war with each other.

Could it happen today? Are treaties and alliances worth the paper they are written on?

More worryingly, do you think conscription could happen today? For a war which is as contentious as Iraq, say? I really can't see it. People these days do not feel bound to do their duty for God and country - we are all consumers now, with consumers' rights. We like to cheer on anything that moves in a UK strip at the Olympics, not sure if we'd be too happy to sacrifice our lives for the flag though. Or is it just me?

Paolo