First suicide

[Val_2]

I see they had the first suicide off that new viaduct bridge ( Millau ?) in the Tarn last week. How can anyone even just look over the edge of that from that height I wonder as its over 270m high and then throw themselves off, they must have been tormented beyond belief. We get them here in Morlaix either off the viaduct or the motorway bridge even with wires and barriers in place, one chap missed and landed in a tree though.

[SaligoBay]

Oh dear.  And they seemed so confident about their anti-suicide barriers....

[JohnM]

 Firstly, I do feel sorry for anyone who is tormented enough to jump and sorry for those who have to live with the aftermath. But as to how they can jump from so high, I will not bungey jump because the ground is too close, but I have parachuted, the ground was so far away that it seemed unreal. Perhaps the same applies with this bridge?

 

[Val_2]

The jumper it seems had left his car parked on the actual bridge which alerted the authorities to check at the bottom. Can you imagine the impact on a human body at that speed and height! We have had a couple of people up here throw themselves under lorries on the dual carriageway, one did it in front of my neighbour and she was in shock for weeks afterwards. They have no thought for their families,these people however sick they may be and I feel that is so selfish.

[Tresco]

I admit I wondered at the time how soon it would be before this happened. I came perilously close to asking the question here, but took some advice Alcazar gave once - wait ten seconds before pressing 'post'. I wish I could remember that advice every time.

Val2 you are not quite right in saying 'they have no thought for their families'. People who commit suicide are so very sick, tormented, as another poster says, that they very, very often think they are doing their families a favour, or that they (the family) will be better off without them.

Those who leave notes frequently say this sort of thing, and those whose attempt failed and/or recover from the terrible depression they are in, look backing back, also say they truly believed this.

Unfortunately, with those who suceed, they are wrong, whatever problems they have, or perceive they are causing for their loved ones, the destruction involved goes way beyond the individual themselves.

[Val_2]

I spoke from seeing the aftermath of the suicide of the son/brother of the people who live across the path from us. The mother who would have been 90 at the time is still living with disbelief four years later that he could have done this to her and brought disgrace on the family name and the rest of the family never mention his name at all now. The misery these went through was unbelievable after the event and this guy had already tried twice before but failed each time and I'm sure he wasn't a bad person but to do this to his family who loved him just wasn't fair,the booze had a big part to play in it as well.

[Tresco]

Val, I really wasn't jumping on your view, perhaps I would have been better using the phrase 'I view it differently'.

There are half a million attempted suicides in the Uk every year, 5 thousand are 'sucessful'. While many of these may have had families who loved them, the kind of deep depression, or even a very strong reactive deression to an event, unbalances people to the extent that clearly, they are not thinking straight, to put it mildly. For this reason I stand by what I said before.

We agree that it is a truly terrible act. Where we seem to differ is that I think the person 'does' it to themselves, (and the misery they experience before they take that final step is incalculable) not their family, but in doing so, as you and I both acknowledge, they can take a lot of people down with them.

tresco

[Battypuss]

No doubt I will be hounded off the board for this. I believe that some people are so troubled, for whatever reason, that they just want to stop the world and get off. The idea of a 'new' place to jump from may well appeal to these troubled souls, some of them being perhaps, not 'compos mentis' when they jump. By that I don't mean that people about to commit suicide are looneys, in any way, just that had they waited a little longer, the idea might have passed. Perhaps being tanked up on something might have ben instrumental.

I speak from the experience of having an ex-husband who tried this several times to spite us (or so the notes said; we were not worth his consideration, only God understood how good he was).

He finally succeeded.

[Tresco]

[quote]No doubt I will be hounded off the board for this. I believe that some people are so troubled, for whatever reason, that they just want to stop the world and get off. The idea of a 'new' place to jump...[/quote]

That's my understanding, that in many cases they just want everything to stop, and suicide seems to be the answer.

Availability of 'method' is one key, a high bridge, beachy head if you live nearby, painkillers in the bathroom cabinet (I railed, personally against only being able to buy paracetamol in 12's, but the rationale behind it I applauded),  because that is exactly what does happen, for many, with a stroke of luck, the moment passes, or something happens just at the right time, it does not have to be anything we would think of as significant - perhaps a friendly word, a phone call, an article read, it could be anything. I believe this is where the shame and guilt come in for the survivors, and I also believe it is misplaced.

I also speak from personal experience, regarding a very good, long term friend, who 'suceeded' and also in relation to two very  serious suicide attempts in my own immediate family (sisters), along with another sister who came very, very close (I have a lot of sisters, and we come from a long line of people with mental health problems, although we use a less formal term amongst ourselves).

Battypus, thank you for posting what you did, and as you know and acknowledge how good your ex husband was, it is almost certain that he knew how good you are too, he was just out of his mind when he did what he did.

and if anyone says ' what has this got to do with France', I would say this, we are all people, these things happen, everywhere, everyday.

tresco

 

[Russethouse]

I have heard of a couple of suicides in France and on both occasions the attitude seemed to me to be as it may have been in the UK say 20 years ago, perhaps attitudes to mental health are different ? (thats a question not a statement !)

[Richard-R]

Dear Russethouse,

Suicide is a sin if you are Catholic and a very big sin at that. Some beleifs stay ingrained in a society even when the importance of the church is in decline.

[SaligoBay]

My very dear neighbour here in France tried to commit suicide.  It's distressing beyond belief, but I wouldn't call it selfish (unless there's emotional blackmail involved, but that's different).

Somebody seriously contemplating suicide is not thinking "normally", their perception of the world has gone awry.   When you think how strong the survival instinct is, there's obviously something gone seriously wrong when someone can consciously and willingly override it.

There's a huge number of suicides in France, and it's very very sad.  I wouldn't have chosen to be involved in the statistics,  I'm just glad she failed and that she's still here.     

[Tresco]

I would agree with that RDKR, as far as siucide being a big sin in the Cathilic view is concerned and I was (sort of) brought up as one. This may go some way to explain the 'disgrace' that Val2's (elderly) neighbours feel regarding the family member who commited suicide. But with every suicide part of the 'shame and 'guilt' will be personal - 'if only I had phoned, been nicer, more patient????' It never ends, the self questioning.

'Disgrace on the family', well it sounds to me pretty much like attitudes I was brought up believing with regard to all sorts of things, pregnancy before marriage being the most obvious. In my own family, my dad, not a Catholic, saw suicides as 'bloody cowards', and for this reason I never saw 'The Wizard of Oz' until I was grown up and left home. Anyone remember 'Alias Smith and Jones'? - that too, absolutely forbidden after Pete Duel shot himself. Many years later, my father had changed his tune, considerably.

Does it really take horrific personal experience to change peoples views so much?

tresco

[Russethouse]

For those that are left lets hope the christian act of forgiveness takes priority over the sin committed.

[Tresco]

'Amen' to that Gay.

I came on the forum this late to edit this post because I made very flippant comment about (my possible) death. Scrolling down, I saw a post in 'health' which i think everyone should see.

For those of you that did not see my original post, it was a throwaway flippant comment, made to lighten the mood, in a way, but as the evening wore on I thought it inapropriate at this point in the thread, during which I have been upset and I suspect others too. I still think the subject is important though, and worthy of continued discussion, if anyone can bear it.

tresco

[Dog]

My sisters husband blew his head off with a shotgun.

After much thought I can only go along with the words used by the Coroner 'balance of the mind was disturbed'.

These unfortunate people are just not thinking straight.

My youngest brother works for the railways - he was the first to fiund two and also had to clear up after many others - he'd much prefer if it never happens again.

[Patf]

To go back to jumping off bridges - there's another condition ( other than wanting to end it all ) that can cause people to do this. It's connected to a fear of heights, when the fear is linked to a compulsion to jump off high places. The compulsion becomes so overwhelming that all ideas of safety disappear. The person tries to stay away from high places but is sometimes drawn towards them. So this wouldn't really be suicide and we don't know how many of these deaths were due to this condition. Fear of heights is very common, but it's not always linked to this compulsion. Pat.

[Diana]

I have never heard anyone else describe this condition, I am petrified of heights and always feel an unutural urge like a magnet is trying to pull me over. In reality this is the last thing I want to do so avoid such situations. Back in the summer we visited the second tallest lighthouse in France, I could happily walk up its thick internal granite steps because I thought the top was totaly enclosed. At the top I realised it was completely open and had to lock my hand round the final bit of the stair rail and slide back down on my bottom. After climbing about 365 steps I was rather **** off, my legs ached for a days afterwards.

When we were house hunting we viewed two houses that were wounderful but their stair cases were so open and high I could not have lived there. One of the houses we nicknames Vertigo House and it still gives me the creeps even as I drive past today.

Diana

[Dog]

[quote]To go back to jumping off bridges - there's another condition ( other than wanting to end it all ) that can cause people to do this. It's connected to a fear of heights, when the fear is linked to a c...[/quote]

I'd never heard of this behaviour. The only information I can find was Australian. I'd be interested to know more.

Suicide and related behaviour from river bridges. A clinical perspective.

Cantor CH, Hill MA, McLachlan EK.

Valley Community Psychiatry Service, Brisbane, Australia.

A survey was conducted of 47 suicides, 16 failed suicides, and 24 attempted suicides that occurred from Brisbane river bridges over 15 years. Compared with findings from other suicide surveys, subjects of bridge suicides and failed suicides had a much higher rate of schizophrenia (46%), with hallucinations often precipitating the jump. They also had extensive histories of previous self-harm. Those who attempted suicide by jumping had a higher rate of personality disorder (58%) compared with findings from other attempted suicide surveys, and had very extensive histories of previous self-harm which tended to continue beyond the bridge incident. Both groups had histories of extensive previous psychiatric care.

[Patf]

I've done a search too on Google and can't find any research reports etc. I have a fear of heights and for a while in the past I had the compulsion I mentioned. Thank God not recently. Over the years I've talked to other people with a fear of heights and a few told me they too had the same compulsion. Pat.

[Teamedup]

Patf, a steeplejack friend of ours reckons that this is quite common and he used to say that it wasn't just those who were frightened of heights, just some people when they get up to a great height some seemed to get the urge to try a little flight. He has said this several times over the years.

I never feel like that, I just feel like I am going to die and end up sat down or on all fours.

There is a glass floored area at the top of the tower in Toronto. It was very interesting to watch people's reactions to walking on it. I couldn't bring my self to put my feet onto the glass bit but could walk across the glass where the suppoting beams showed but  I still felt like throwing up even then. What an experience it was.

[Tresco]

That's interesting TU, in terms of both what Patf has told us, and what SaligoBay mentioned earlier, about the instinct for survival being so very strong, that it takes something really serious for us, o(r our brains), to overcome it.

Even a baby of 6 months will stop at the edge of a rug on a wooden floor, albeit briefly. Imagine the torment (or derangement) that takes someone over that real 'edge'.

tresco

[Teamedup]

Tresco, I don't understand it either. Maybe some of us have slight lemming ancestry, who knows.

[Tresco]

I think I might have a touch of that old 'lemming' in me, the rushing headlong and unthinking to disaster thing

It's been fairly revalatory for me, reading the responses to this thread. I laugh because I 'know', but my eyes are peeled as far as myself, my family and friends are concerned.

tresco

[Patf]

Quite a relief to read the replies . Perhaps I'm not such a nutter as I thought I was! I don't know if you agree with Freud but he suggested a death wish along with a drive for life in all humans. What about all these people who go in for wild and dangerous sports? For myself I think I must have been a bird or a fish in a previous life. A fish because the urge to jump was always over water. Also I'm a Pisces. Pat.