Blair and his rebates

[Renaud]

Christopher Kay in the entertaining Pot Porri part of his website writes about an evening out:

"‘Magic Association of the Gironde’ was celebrating its 50^th anniversary.  It is a little difficult to understand why they were given a couple of hours on stage, particularly as the magic tricks they demonstrated simply did not work, leaving the audience stunned to silence…it was even more astonishing after the tricks failed to work that each of the magicians received his award of a ‘Magic Wand’ in “recognition of their success”!

I remember when I was a little younger that you could send 2/6d to one of the box numbers in the Tiger or Lion or Hotspur comics and receive through the mail ’50 tricks to impress your friends…guaranteed’, and wondered if these magicians’ had written for the tricks and they had simply not arrived in time for the performance"

 

It sounds very like the recent Chirac / Blair performance.

[Martin963]

@Saligobay

It isn't fun being pounced on.   My strategy (living in an area of 24 where virtually no-one can speak English) is to say - politely - that I am not prepared to argue about the EU and the Constitution in anything other than my own tongue.  I speak fluent (although highly inaccurate) French,  people know that I can speak French,  and seem in the main to respect the fact that I can't however be expected to argue such complex issues in their language,  particularly when they can't reciprocate in anything other than their mother-tongue.

But what depresses me the most is the lack of knowledge round here.   Few of our French friends read a paper,  most watch TF1 for the news,  and therefore really don't have a clue about anything other than Chirac's viewpoint.

Another reason for shying away from complex discussions.....

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Somebody mentioned the Bridge ? I am so sorry, I have nothing agst Chelsea or any other UK club for that matter, but I hate Abramovitch with a vengeance, not because of how rich he is but how he 'gathered' his fortune.

Anyway, Martin, I sympathise with you, but you know, its the same in the UK, if not worse ! When I talk to my neighbours in rural England after they're back from continental Europe, often the only thing they have to say is how dear the beer is now in Crete or platitudes in the same vein. Few people bother to be interested in anything beyond the boundaries of their parish, and I suspect it is the same anywhere in the world, the US don't have a monopoly on ignorance or lack of curiosity, as is so often and so unfairly claimed in the Oh so smug British or French media. Blissful ignorance and its happy and proud bedfellows, total lack of interest and indifference, are the most universally shared scourges on our societies. Et ouais, ainsi va le monde.

[Jo53]

Martinwatkins, you're so right about the language thing. There is nothing worse than being goaded into a political discussion with French friends, and being unable to get over all the killer points you think up, while their tirades against the 'Anglo-Saxons' (whoever they are) get faster and faster so that you end up not even understanding what you're being accused of! This is a particular problem when both parties are pissed, I find. The said friends came round recently and we all agreed, good humouredly, not to mention the whole sorry saga at all, sinon ca va finir par la guerre.

Speaking of which though, and re SB's point about totally different sets of 'facts' being 'known' in each country, I do find the current furore quite depressing. This is how wars start. This polarisation into 'us' and 'them', our values and their values, the reasons we are right and they are wrong. Eventually, if there is no exchange of views and each side gives up trying to understand the other, 'they' become pariahs that 'we' are justified in attacking. I'm not saying this will ever happen between Britain and France, but it is the same process that has brought populations to the point where they will attack each other.

Jo

[Deimos]

Quote (Jo53): “… I do find the current furore quite depressing. This is how wars start. This polarisation into 'us' and 'them', our values and their values, the reasons we are right and they are wrong. Eventually, if there is no exchange of views and each side gives up trying to understand the other, 'they' become pariahs that 'we' are justified in attacking. I'm not saying this will ever happen between Britain and France, but it is the same process that has brought populations to the point where they will attack each other.”

I agree 100%. I suppose when I made the post originally, apart for my general disappointment with Blair, I was disappointed that these days people in such positions (both of them) cannot act in a more mature more embracing manner. Just because “he started it” (whoever “he” may be) does not justify another party in behaving in a similar manner. I suppose I had expected more of our politicians – after all they are meant to be professionals.

Ian

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

There are more French people than you think who approves of Blair's stance on this one, and who think that the CAP is positively C*AP. However, the same people, not usually being 'grandes gueules', tend to keep schtum during the sort of heated debates that the French and other Latin people(s) are so fond of. Almost invariably a 'well-oiled' political or social discussion in France follows the following pattern over a short period of time (observations based on 100's of réunions de famille, méchouis, baptemes, repas de communions, réceptions, banquets, mariages, etc. over many years): 

a) jocularly amicable, almost everybody takes part and chips in with sensible or plausible anecdotes,   not too many preposterous generalisations (although a few feckless ones start to rear their ghastly heads), noise levels acceptable, good level of debate etiquette observed, pleasantries galore, very civilized banter on the whole.

One course later...

b) less frequent funny quips from table jokers, noise level increases, palpable erosion of good debate etiquette, a few worthy contributors lose interest as not able now to put a flipping word in edgeways, discussion starting to go round in circles and not forward, dodgy and dubious  'examples' starting to creep in to 'illustrate' points.

Half a course later...

c) noise levels and body language seemingly hostile enough to shock the non-initiated, not much debate etiquette left -or table etiquette left for that matter-, very opinionated 'grandes gueules' are seizing total control of debate (the 'table putsch'), very few keen participants left -a few people have left table-, example-led 'discussion' and monologues frequent (also called 'tunnels' -i.e when only the speaker himself/herself is listening to his/her own words in an endless and unstoppable stream of unwieldly arguments).

A 1/4 of a course later...

d) no etiquette left at all, absence of decorum, only 2 or 3 participants left (invariably 'Grandes Gueules' hors classe), plenty of tired faces, original points lost and logical arguments totally ignored (or rubbished unceremoniously), examples given rare risible to pissing-oneself point, interruptions are now measured per second and more numerous than in the Zimbabwe national grid, wine bottles in cadaveric state, low- level personal digs flash across table, point-scoring type of discussion, main union names mentioned unheathily frequently, entirely male-led.

Sounds familiar ?

[Miki]

....."...Somebody mentioned the Bridge ? I am so sorry, I have nothing agst Chelsea or any other UK club for that matter, but I hate Abramovitch with a vengeance, not because of how rich he is but how he 'gathered' his fortune)"

PSG, no real history, no tradition, a young club whose supporters have a tradition of violence but hold on, has this result last year got something to do with it : Paris Saint-Germain 0 - 3 Chelsea and who can forget the rascists chants by the PSG supporters at Didier Drogba on that night, is that a humain approach to show off about ? All clubs have their cross to bear and if I were you, I would not shout too long and too much about something you personally could not prove, the net police are having some success with cases like this.

No, you may of course hate Roman Abromovich but you can be 100% sure that PSG supporters and officials would have walked over burning hot coals to have him in Paris as the Chairman. So do please try to see it all from a Chelsea supporters point of view, when finally after 50 years, we regained the top spot. Championships are generally won with big money transfers some time before the big win, this time it was Chelsea that gained the foothold with large transfers. Who will be next I wonder, to get a Chairman and to try for the number one spot ? If PSG get a Russian or whoever, you will see my point of view have no doubt about that.....

[Teamedup]

How difficult those dinners used to be for me, took quite some getting used to. 

I used to start feeling nervous as b) started.

Very uneasy when c) was on it's merry way.

And when d) came used to wait with  baited breath for the fisticuffs to start.

Only no one ever did fight.  And over all those meals the only person who left the table, and he really stormed off one night. An english bloke who was shouted down when he insisted that Le Pen was the way France should really be going. And for all it had been very heated, I was rather proud of everyone else.

 

 

[Ex Forum Admin]

3 posts have been removed from this thread. 2 because they are against the forum code of conduct - ie. 'naming and shaming'. The other post was a reply and wouldn't make sense on it's own.

 

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Just back from work. Had posted this morning at about 8 AM and I am shocked to see that my post, that was absolutely not offensive to anybody and only mentioned Abram, was deleted. Bonjour la liberté d'expression ! Honestly, we had a good debate going on with Miki, I don't understand what prompted you to delete my post. Admin Forum people, could we have a football forum, please ?

[Ex Forum Admin]

Hi,

You can't comment on whether someone is involved in a crime when they have never been convicted. That is slander and as such could put us both in trouble.

There is a 'leisure and pastimes' forum if you want to discuss football but not to 'name and shame'!!!

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Well, obviously I was not aware of the Do's and Dont's on this forum, I am now. I regularly take part in one or 2 other forums where freedom of speech is what it says on the tin.

[Ex Forum Admin]

Thanks. There have been cases of libel on forums in the past and I'd rather not go down that route. Anything written on the web is considered 'published' and therefore has legal implications.

 

[Miki]

Come on forget it vraititi, the Admin are right, that is why I did warn you that it would not be too sensible to carry it on as were you going.

Never mind, as you say, we were finding some common ground. You can still detest Mr Abromovicvh and I can still say you would like him at PSG !

We have today, had a bid of close to £50 million turned down by AC Milan for Andriy Shevchenko, tant pis......more soccer as they say, as and when, over on the sports thread.

[Martin963]

In my earlier post I berated the paucity of real news on TF1.

Interesting therefore that there was absolutely NO mention of Mr Blair and the European Parliament debate today on the 13.00 bulletin.

So it seems that having thrown their spanner in the works by voting NON,  the French no longer take much of an interest in European affairs.

Or is it perhaps (I tread very carefully here,  please don't shoot me down!) that no-one wants to admit in public that maybe,  just maybe,  Mr Blair's ideas should at least be given a hearing in France......

I should stress that some of the above is tongue-in-cheek,  I'm sure it'll be covered at 20.00 on TF1

[Mjc]

It has been interesting over the past couple of weeks to hear both Chirac and Schroeder say that Britain refuses to compromise. Yet in the same sentence Chirac states categorically that he will not give way on the CAP. Now that's what I call a French compromise.

After Tony Blair's speech to the European Parliament today, it was very enlightening to hear that the leaders of Germany's left and right wing parties say that if TB can negotiate a reform of the CAP and a fundamental change of EU direction during the UK' s six months that each would support him.  With Schroeder likely to go in the autumn, all the signs are that the EU is beginning to swing their views away from the old self agranding attitudes of France and Germany and see that perhaps the UK does have the right approach of looking to the future.

Since Britain has undoubtedly been more successful than most of it's EU partners over the past ten years or so, I wonder why we see, in this thread, so many UK knockers?

 

[Tourangelle]

To come back to what Martin Watkins said earlier about refusing to discuss politics other than in English, I thought that was a good idea. But I couldn't use it myself anymore, so does anybody have any ideas about how to knock these conversations on the head? It is not that I am not interested in the issues, but I don't feel so strongly about it that I would want to go into some long debate on it. I have some (French) family coming soon and they are sure to mention it, (and they are certainly for the CAP) any ideas about how to politely not get into discussion about this would be very much appreciated!

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Well, I can debate totally freely on footie on lescahiersdufoot.fr and SoFoot Forums (both excellent magazines BTW -unlike the now turgid France Football) so I was genuinely surprised to have one innocuous post deleted, anyway. No, hand on heart, I would hate to have Abram at the PSG helm, but yes, probably 90% of supporters would not mind. Anyway, as I said I have liked very much to Chelsea play this year, on occasion they've played the best football I'd seen in a long time. I do not support or dislike any UK club, I must have been to 20 stadia in the UK over the yrs watch different teams, so I am not biaised one way or another, I'm glad when I can see some exciting stuff, whether it's Arsenal, Chelsea or Man U I don't care. Chelsea-PSG 3-0, well, this year we simply did not have the level to play the CL, full stop. Yes, it would be nice to have s.o suddenly pour lots of money into the club, but it has been done before at PSG (notably 3 seasons ago) and, unlike at Chelsea, it did not work, depends who is at the helm. Looks like you've got a 'right one' here with Mourihno !

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Just for info, by tradition, the 45 minute-long TF1 13h00 'news' programme focusses more on regional life, oddities, artisan life, 'le terroir/la vie dans nos campagnes' sort of things, etc. (examples of typical topic: 'the amazing round of Cristiano, postie in Corsica' or 'clog makers in the Jura' or 'weathervane/wrought iron creators in the Touraine', all of them I saw recently), it will typically feature 5 or 6 different regions everyday, the first bit 13h00 to 13h10 is national or briefly international, then devoted to life in the French region. By contrast, the one on Antenne 2, same time, is national and international. Don't know about the other ones on the other channels. I personally love the (much derided in some quarters) 13h00 'news' programme, full of quirky regional life, happy silly vignettes of French life, in a word so far removed from the daily Irak-EU-Bruxelles triumvirate.

[SaligoBay]

Is that the one where you get the DOM-TOM news at the end?   You certainly get a different view of things!    My idea of La Réunion is beaches and palm trees, then suddenly I was watching mounted policeman (on horses, that is), patrolling supermarket car parks because there are so many robberies in them.

Supermarkets, packed car parks, concrete blocks of flats, all very disappointing!!! 

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

No, you don't get the DOM-TOM at the end, you get the Bourse instead, but, as you say SB, it's probably just as well and more cheerful than the goings-on in La Réunion. Not sure which one has the DOM-TOM, maybe France2, I wouldn't know I only watch the TF1 13h00, can't get enough of les petits ébénistes still going on in the legendary Faubourg Saint-Antoine little 'mesters' or the last bouilleurs de cru in the Perche !

[Turnip]

[quote]Is that the one where you get the DOM-TOM news at the end? You certainly get a different view of things! My idea of La Réunion is beaches and palm trees, then suddenly I was watching mounted poli...[/quote]

AH - the sort of things they don't show UK viewers dreaming of the good life in France

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Except that this particular island is about 8,000 miles away from the Métropole.

[Martin963]

@ tourangelle -

I in NO way consider myself an adept diplomat (in fact I fear I am by nature quite the reverse), but here are two suggestions:

If the request not to argue in anything other than one’s mother tongue fails, then try refusing to take part in a discussion on the EU unless the other party has regular access to some form of UK (or perhaps German /Italian/whatever) media. None of our French friends reads or watches or listens to any sort of "international" (ie non-French view point) media, and the great thing is that they all know that I DO watch both French TV News AND the BBC (or whatever). Explain that unless they have watched regularly for a long period the other point of view then there is no point in debating further. This one works a treat, particularly if you can point up (as I frequently do) major international stories that TF1 (particularly) have simply ignored.

And the second: arm yourself with lots of factual questions about France’s position in the EU. Don’t spew out facts and figures, just ask your would-be "attacker" how much – for example – France contributes net to the EU, and how much the UK contributes, things like that. If a few simple questions of this sort illicit the constant response "I don’t know" then the chances are you’ll shame them into silence.

But just saying you don’t want to discuss things ought to be enough (never is though is it??!!)

@vraititi; you are quite right, I’ve watched TF1 from home in Devon and also in France for long enough to know that what you say is spot on. That’s fine, but it shouldn’t really masquerade as "Les Infos de 13.00" when there is so little hard news in it. If they called it "au travers notre pays" or something like that it would be more suitably titled. But calling it a news programme is – whether judged by French or other standards – simply a misnomer!

But like you – I LOVE IT - as a useful guide to France and its traditions – we’ve even gone on jaunts to places where they have reported from (eg La Rhune, Curemonte) as it makes such a good travel ideas guide.

[Vraititi<P>PSG till I die -fluctuat nec mergitur.<P>]

Advise your French friends, when they say they do not read/listen to foreign news, to:

a) read the weekly Courrier International, it's in FRENCH and it's straight from the horse's mouth, namely spread of original articles from all over the world translated into French, so not the world news seen and analysed through the prism of French journos but genuine, unbiased and obviously well-informed articles. It does help to give you a better grasp of world current affairs and the likes at no cost effort-wise.

b) point out tactfully, as Martin suggests, that they could maybe get their info from a variety of sources in France, not just TF1 and their cronies but France Inter as well, plenty of world programmes, AM, PM, etc. I like the daily one with D. Mermet every week day between 17 and 18 h, very often he sets up his stall in foreign lands and goes into companies, factories, bars, markets, pubs, etc. to talk to ordinary people. A few weeks ago, he stayed in the UK for a week talking about all sorts of UK-related topics.

c) as Martin says, bash their ears with your news sources from the English-speaking world that, like it or not, is much bigger than the French-speaking world. When they say, invariably, that you can't count US media as they're too biaised, cite India News, Aussie News, Canada, South Africa, etc. just to show them that the non UK English world is not just limited to the US !

If they refuse to listen or refuse to make any efforts to reach out to you, probably wise to avoid discussions other than to do with recipes or what the heck, change friends !

Yes, the TF1 'infos' a 'tromperie sur la marchandise' classic to attract the punters. Well, that's TF1 for you, plus démagogue, tu meurs ! The PM news bulletin is more international I think, no funny regional business in the PM one, but I'm not sure really, I rarely watch the news in the evening.