Blair and his rebates

[Deimos]

I guess different people will have different attitudes to Blair’s current insistence about Britain’s rebate.  However, to me it seems he is insisting that the Agricultural subsidies are “reviewed” despite them being agreed in 2002.  After all, TB might be raising it now, but there was also a “radical reform” agreed only in June 2003 – yet he feels we need another one now (http://www.europa.eu.int/comm/agriculture/capreform/index_en.htm)

 

Proposals for 2007-2013 budget already propose the Agriculture contribution of only 29% - though I cannot remember seeing Tony Blair, Jack straw, etc. making this too clear (http://www.europa.eu.int/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/05/389&format).

 

It is interesting how other European countries newspapers are portraying Mr. Blair/UK in this “struggle” about the rebate http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1506737,00.html

 

Maybe I’ve mis-interpreted things but it seems that once again the UK is isolating itself from the rest of Europe.

 

Ian

[Babnik]

It's funny how Tony Blair...or the media are making out that it's the French that are the villains, when in actual fact, it seems that all the other 24 countires seem to think the rebate should go.

Steve

[Teamedup]

My personal view is that the agricultural policy stinks and always has. Those mountains of 'food' were never a joke.

 

And french farmers, are they really that inefficient that they need such huge top ups. And if french farming  is efficient, then they shouldn't be getting all this money anyway.

 

For me both are rebates of sorts and frankly I don't give a toss what the germans have to say. With a german government arrogant enough to not have had a referendum about the new constitution. How dare they say that they voted for it, 'they' the german people didn't.

 

 

[Tourangelle]

I agree with the first poster that this issue is being presented totally differently if you read the French press or the British press. But it does seem just a little too convienent for Chirac to attack Britain - he is obviously trying to distract from the referendum result and win back the vote of French farmers at the same time. Although the rest of Europe may agree about the rebate, the CAP can't go on the way it is with so much going to France, and M.Chirac knows that perfectly well.

[Jo53]

French sanctimony on the British rebate is unbelievable. Chirac is in effect saying, 'you must show solidarity by helping to finance our farmers. You must give up your rebate and accept that it is Britain's duty to pay 15 times as much (net) into the EU as France does, because that is the way the world has to be.'

In effect, all the member states, including the new ones, are subsidising French farmers. But the new states dare not speak out because they were made to agree to this as a condition for joining the EU. Where is the 'solidarity' in that? Why should the system be perpetuated? The EU needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Of course Britain should give up the rebate, but only when the present system is replaced by a modern and fair one.

Jo

[Deimos]

One aspect though is that whilst Blair is going on about the 40% of the budget going on CAP, he is omitting to tell everybody that, without him having done anything the 2007 to 2013 budget has only 29% of the EU budget on CAP – thus I interpret that 40% to 29% is a drop. It always worries me with Blair (and Straw as well) that they are only telling people those aspects that back whatever it is they are trying to achieve and omit relevant facts (e.g. dropping to 29% 2007-2013) that don’t suit them.

Also, it isn’t only the French saying the rebate is no longer justified – but virtually every other EU member country. UK is pretty alone. Maybe the French are being “sanctimonious” but the same feelings are widespread across Europe.

Last night at agility club, through discussing how I need to pay for my agility license, the subject of reimbursements came up. Predictable reaction with me being the only Brit there, but people were saying that this time Tony Blair had had his fingers burnt (using the past tense). They obviously considered the current discussions a foregone conclusion. I was asked if I was for “Les Anglais” OR for Europe – phrased as an either or question.

CAP was “reformed” only a couple of years ago. I don’t know the rights and wrongs, but if according to Blair it is so wrong, why did they not do something about it then. This was not a private agreement between Germany and France (as some would suggest) but the June 2003 “fundamental reform” agreed by EU Farm Ministers (including the UK).

[Jo53]

I was asked if I was for “Les Anglais” OR for Europe – phrased as an either or question.

Would that be the same Europe that the French have just voted 'non' to? Don't people have short (or selective) memories? It would be tempting to use the H word ...

On the question of a fall in CAP spending from 40% of budget to 29% that Deimos mentioned - presumably the budget has grown substantially since the 10 (?) new members joined. So you could be talking about the same amount of money being spent. I don't know. Every country does put its own spin on things. What I can't get past is the undisputed figure that Britain pays 2.5 times as much as France even with the rebate, and without it would pay 15 times as much. And Britain is the lowest net recipient in the EU (which is OK, someone has to be, but in that position we can hardly be accused of not pulling our weight).

I cannot understand why all the other states seem to think that French farmers (and to a significantly lesser extent, farmers in some of the other richer countries) have an unchallengable right to be subsidised by everyone else. Farmers in the new, poor member states are getting nothing like the same deal, because it was recognised that that would be impossible to finance. The truth is that France designed the EU to suit itself, and that design is very difficult to eradicate.

Jo

 

[Deimos]

[quote]I was asked if I was for “Les Anglais” OR for Europe – phrased as an either or question . Would that be the same Europe that the French have just voted 'non' to? Don't people have short (or selectiv...[/quote]

Most people round this area (who I’ve come across) who voted “no” voted as a protest to the French domestic situation. Many have actually be at pains to explain to me that they were not voting against Europe (and were worried that people might have interpreted it as such) but about the problems facing France (unemployment, economy, etc.). Thus, from my experience, the “Non” vote was not about Europe but completely local to France.

[Miki]

So Deimos, as is usual, the French want their cake etc etc ? They cannot say one voted against Europe as it was a vote against Chirac and then say "Ah but we still want Europe for the subsidies etc" I think they are being rather selective in how they want to view Europe. As it stands at the moment, Blair has every right to hold on to the £3 billion rebate, for the benefit of the British public.

No, any French around here who want to talk Blair and Chirac, are of the same voice as the ones you talk about, all except one, our daughters old teacher of English that I met at the market this morning. He spoke very well, stating that Chirac is now going to attack anyone, in the name of France, to up his own standing. He has been severely battered and as is his usual defence, he will attack and accuse anyone as "anti France" so as to make his own light shine a little brighter but hopefully this time, the French will see him for what he is really worth (and that ain't a lot !!)

[Anton Redman]

It is the Dutch I feel sorry for. They are running at £ 81 per head per annum versus a net cost of £ 31 in UK and £ 21 in France.

I have not discovered a French phrase for 'Fair Play' and French friends role about the floor laughing at the suggestion of 'Excessve Patritism' for 'Chauvanism'  

[SaligoBay]

Aaaaarrgghhhh, I am traumatised, tonight I was on the receiving end of the full 12-inch remix of this........

 "but Angleterre is the richest country in the EU, it's time they thought about giving money to other, poorer countries, who have joined after them.   They've been taking loads of money from the EU for the last 30 years."   And so on.....

Rightio, matey. 

I find it absolutely unbelievable that Brits grow up with one set of "facts", and the French grow up with another set of "facts".   All our "knowledge" about ludicrous French farming subsidies are worth nothing here in France, and their "knowledge" about how rich and well-off England is are worth nothing to us.  It has a Douglas-Adamsish feel about it, don't you think?

Sorry to be so banal about it (it doesn't rhyme with anal, but maybe it should).    

[Miki]

Yes but our facts are better than their facts, everyone knows that.

".....Sorry to be so banal about it (it doesn't rhyme with anal, but maybe it should)"

Well you learn something everyday on here, are you sure SB ? Otherwise I have been saying one of those words completly wrong, for too many years ! It sounded so posh the way I did spoke it as well (the one that rhymes with Thumb).

[Miki]

Under your bizarre kind of reasoning and therefore as you don't agree with me on here, I can therefore expect you to leave the forum then...

If my memory serves me correctly, I am pretty sure that the UK is in Europe and paying one of the highest amounts per head in to the big kitty. As far as the UK, well who would know best than the teeny bopper lad from Slough, still no PM's albi ? Come on little feller.........

[Miki]

You missed out the most vital point of your argument.....

The majority of the huge French rebate is going mostly to the extremely rich farmers, that is what is causing the uproar but at the end of the day, Chirac is simply throwing up a big smokescreen to cover up his own poor ratings.

Don't mistake someone covering his back as a genuine attempt to get the UK to hand back their rebate, Chirac knows only too well just how much of the aid to the farmers and agricole is going to the poor farmers and how much the rich are getting fatter still, due to massive handouts, now expected to be going on the size of acreage to increase their aid.

Now that will help the poor farmers with just a few hectares won't it !!

Have no fear, Chirac will be changing his tactics as often as his underpants to keep himslef in power, remember what may well happen to the chap if (when) he falls from power !

Anyway what has Slough got to do with French farmers ?

[Missy]

Rebate or No Rebate?...

Looking at my 25+years experience in 'Entente Cordiale' and I am bringing this debate much near home. Yes my Hubby! you know that!!

When something is going wrong : 'Blame the French!' even though many other people are saying the same as they... The other countries are just hiding behind us as we have somewhat more stylish experience at the 'Revolution' lark...

But what I want to know is that for all these rebates accorded to all passed governments, there does not seem to be any difference in the coffers of the Treasury in UK! Services, NHS, Education, Police etc... are still struggling to make ends meet in their endeavours.

So WHERE DOES this celebrated rebate go to Mr Blair-Brown?...

As to Slough, no one knows where it is that's why the French couldn't care!

(Here imagine lots of smiley-winking faces!!!!!!!

I would love to have these little logo smiley faces that some of you have on your postings, but this computer doesn't offer them. The only time I can use them is when I check the forum from my local libray's public-access computer. Why?)

[Pangur]

Surely both sides have a point?  From what I understand, the rebate was negotiated when the UK was in dire economic straits in 1984 - the conditions have changed dramatically so the rebate probably does want to be looked at again.

And I'm not an agricultural expert, but it sounds like CAP also needs a bit of tinkering with, especially in the light of a renewed effort in making trade a bit fairer worldwide.  France are not on their own here in resisting CAP reform - most European countries have a much more influential farming lobby than the UK.

This all strikes me as typical Anglo-French posturing, fighting out the same old ight, harking back to the days of Empire.  I'm sure both sides will re-negotiate, they don't have much of a choice.... 

 

[Miki]

"..When something is going wrong : 'Blame the French!'"

So who do the French blame ???????

Gave me a laugh anyway

"...As to Slough, no one knows where it is that's why the French couldn't care!"

Shame on the French, Slough is lovely (when the sun shines), terribly sad day when the dog track was sold out to a supermarket though

[Renaud]

On the topic of Bob Geldof/Africa/the G8 summit - there seemed to be agreement from all on this forum that positive help should be given to Africa (and the third world). It is hard to square this altruism with unthinking acceptance of the protective barriers that form the basis of the EU.

The real scandal about the EU and the CAP is the way that either EU surplus food is dumped on non-EU communities - destroying their farmers - or else EU tarrifs preventing third world nations trading with us. Not to mention the European fishing fleets denuding the waters off Africa.

The way that UK farmers are subsidized has just been changed by Tony Blair. The new idea is that they will get money to grow nothing but to keep the countryside looking tidy. A nice place for the folk from Islington to have picnics.

My bet is that within five years CAP will be reformed and this system of subsidy will be spread accross the EU.

I think that this is the first time I have posted anything entirely sober.

Gus

PS I belive that the cute little round faces are a plague confined to PCs. 

[JohnM]

I went to Slough once. I went for the entertainment one Saturday night... thousands of people in the centre, who then all went home once they'd seen the traffic lights change.

Yes, I know, "that's ripe coming from someone who hails from Swindon...."

 

[Russethouse]

Well Slough inspired John Betjamin and Ricky Gervais so I guess it can't be ALL bad - for many years it had the largest trading estate in Europe and included the UK finishing plant for Citroen cars and Mars .......

On the other hand I was born and bought up about 7 miles away and have been there three times in my life......thats how much I like it !!

[Miki]

Only one slight problem with that Gay:

With Betjamin, he wanted a bomb to descend and with Gervais he simply wanted to take the Michael !

No it was the dog track that did it for me, with the trading estate lagging behind in second place, although the M4 was a very close third. Sorry but the night of the traffic lights did little for me. Mind you it has inspired bali to dream of living in sunnier climes, so Slough still holds inspiration for some

[pattsie]

The Agricultural subsidies are a rip off to europe its well known by everyone living near grain stores in France that the grain gets moved about just after the the officials check in order to get extra subsidys its criminal and its theft from all the countrys that put money in and france is the villain

[Alane]

The British rebate was negotiated to correct the inequities of the deal that Rippon/Heath negotiated to get the UK into the EEC, by hook or by crook,  in 1973. By the early 1980's it was apparent that the Uk was paying into the EC far more than was reasonable as it was getting little return from the CAP. I heard Geoffrey Howe on Radio 4 yesterday speaking about the 1984 negotiations and to hear him it seemed like a deal struck between the UK and France only with little or no input from the rest of the members. The fact is that the UK is still, even with the rebate, contributing far more to the EU than France. Relative levels of prosperity and changes since 1984 don't change that.

Since 1984 the UK has taken some very hard decisions, at great social cost, to end the subsidies to many non viable industries. Arguably, this has been a significant factor in the increase in prosperity in the UK. Blair's problem is that it will be impossible to sell to the UK public that has gone through this pain that they should now subsidise a (largely French) agricultural sector that is basically not viable without large subsidies. Particularly when those subsidies are distorting the world markets and causing distress and even starvation to third world farmers who are being forced out of markets by food dumped from the EU. This is a real problem for the whole EU and reduction of those subsidies is likely to cause significant social unrest in France. There is going to have to be give and take on both sides but it is unrealistic of the French to expect that this is going to go all their way and as far as I can see Blair/Straw have little or no incentive to inflame UK public opinion to pacify the French when they can veto the budget changes.

It now appears that a numbe of other EU leaders are coming out of the closet and starting to voice their concerns about the CAP arrangements. Chirac may be starting to regret that he tried to divert attention away from his referendum result by hurling rocks at the UK rebate and re-opening the Pandora's box of the CAP particluarly if Schroder's replacement appears to take the UK view on the CAP.

 

Alan.

[Dick Smith]

"Well Slough inspired John Betjamin"

Well hardly!

'Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough,

It isn't fit for humans now,

There isn't grass to graze a cow

Swarm over, Death!'

Not a glowing endorsement I feel.

[Deby]

Alane,

Brilliantlly put!  I know we are not the poor men of Europe anymore,  I remember those coalminers, I remember high unemployment for the semi-skilled they all suffered. Blair needs to stick to his guns on this.

Chirac has opened Pandora's box.  The CAP needs reforming.  However I am not a big fan of intensive farming either which reforms would lead the way to this. Market forces would apply and then farms would need to become efficient, so catch 22 again.

Saw Breakfast news yesterday, there was an outside broadcast from the town I am from in the UK twinned with a french one. The presenter asked both nationalities what they wanted, both said job security and easier working practices, low unemployment etc.

Of course we all would like this, but you do not get one without the other, economics tells you have to make a choice one or the other.  

The social model is nice, but nice does not work on a global scale with the likes of India, China and other nations competing. If we are not careful we will become a Fortress Europe (already are to some degree).

Deby