Man just been shot on train at Stockwell

[Ron Avery]

[quote]But 5 times in the head? This looks like an RUC-style execution to me. It appears that (according to the eyewitness Mark Whitby) that he was shot 5 times in the head by a single left-handed plain-clot...[/quote]

It has just been reported that the Police Complaints Authority  are investigating the shooting at Stockwell

SO that might explain why this incident, that brought most of South London to a halt by the police blocking one of the busiest intersection of roads into London for hours and nonstop coverage for hours and hours on Sky/BBC/ITN etc, has now disappeared from the news altogether  I know there has been a bombing in Egypt, but it has not been mentioned in relation to reports on yesterday's events in London since midnight last night..

Is it because as some of the media are saying, very quietly, he may NOT have been one of the bombers and could, could!! have been an accomplice.  Do I detect a funny smell coming from the tube at Stockwell and its not the drains?  Seems to me that  the Polce are going to have to explain, if they were following him and according to the BBC they were  "The dead man, who was under police observation, was killed at about 1000 BST after apparently refusing to stop as he entered Stockwell station" 

 and they thought that he had a bomb belt, which is why they shot him dead, why did he let him get to the trains where he could do the most damage the first place AND if it turns out he had no bombs or weapons, and I doubt we will ever be told,  why in the words of an eye witness,  "they held him down and shot him five times in the head?"  Was this an innocent asian man who may have been killed because he did not speak English. I hope not.

[Deimos]

How long ago was this incident. I would have thought that if he was shot dead they would have been able to establish if he had any bombs on him pretty quickly ?

Ian

[tj]

I agree, he security forces have been left with little choice, and are seriously under pressure. And it may be the case an innocent is caught up in all this, but if we trust them to act responsibly with their mandate I would hope this will be avoided.

However, this man appaently left a house that was under surveillance for suspected terror activities, he didnt have the sense to stop when instructed to do so, he decided the best option was to run ? I think a fair result was acheived and the police did their best.

My sympathies are with the police officers involved, who were forced to take another human life, I,m sure no amount of training can remove the trauma of the situation and the visual impact of the aftermath of the shooting, a mess I  imagine!

[pinkfluff<P>Big Wet Drops and Lots of Them, Are a Sure Sign of Rain!<P>]

Birds of a feather flock together if the guy came out of the house the chance is he is one of them,  if we all wiffle too much about civil libertys we are going to get hurt we must let the police do what  they know best with a lot of help from MI5 and the likes and if we question them too much and prosecute the odd  policemen that makes a mistake then the rest are going to delay in their actions, Mind you though, the public thoughts on these matter will get stronger the more we get hurt. I thought the media played into the terrorists hands a bit by putting the "eye witness" on a little too much leaving doubt in peoples mind but don't expect the police to give us the whole details they don't want to tell anything because they know the terrorists are watching the news as well

[Hoddy]

I think I'm right in saying that any police shooting has to be referred to the Police Complaints Authority. If I am,  there may not be any particular significance in this referral.

Hoddy

[Tresco]

Birds of a feather flock together if the guy came out of the house the chance is he is one of them, (Pink fluff)

What about all the young people who share accomodation in London?. The shock and disgust of those related to/friends with the bombers from two weeks ago (those who have spoken publicly) is clear to see.

 

[Coco]

I think there's probably a bit too much "unconfirmed" reporting on all this at the moment.  I listened to News 24 most of yesterday and three different eye witnesses came up with three different versions.  There were 3 undercover polcemen chasing this man........ 5 plain clothes policemen ran onto the train and then shot him at point blank range in the head 5 times........ there were about 20 plain clothes  policemen on the train....... the man grabbed a passenger and was then shot........ a policeman tackled him to the floor...... he tripped as he got on the train. 

How can we possibly get a clear picture?  And it must be so difficult for the police when eye witness statement differ so greatly.

Only one other person has commented about the after effects on the policeman too.  I'm absolutely sure they are not "trigger happy"  The policemen may be highly trained but I bet it's the first time this poor man has killed anyone in such a way and I'm sure he will need counselling himself.

[Teamedup]

I don't leave the news on when this sort of stuff happens now. I leave it a few hours and then go to a news program on Radio 4. Less hype more news compared to the tv news progs. I'm sure that they too will spin it all out a bit, but for me it is better than leaving the box on.

[Nick Trollope]

It now transpires that the man they shot was in no way connected with the bombing.

That is to say, he was executed for wearing an inappropriate coat and failing to respond to a challenge from a PLAIN CLOTHES Police Officer. I doubt if we will ever know why he ran - but summary execution is an inappropriate punishment.

I use the term execution becuase this bloke was, by all accounts, knocked down then shot in the head 5 times. Do the British people really want this sort of Police Force (they have made great play of their shoot-to-kill policy)?

BTW, I never said that the French, Belgian, US or Zimbabwian Police were any better.

Perhaps now is the time to look at the causes of this violence.

I am so glad I no longer live in the UK. Those of you who do are welcome to it.

 

[Loopy Lou]

|So perhaps my first response to the shooting has turned out to be painfully true. I would not like to be a policeman in these circumstances. Where does protection end and knee jerk reaction begin?

[Catalpa]

Quote from NickT:

<< I am so glad I no longer live in the UK. Those of you who do are welcome to it. >>

Really? I'm so glad that I come from a country - even if I'm not currently living there - where, if this is a mistake, the police and authorities admit it rather than immediately instituting a coverup.

If this guy is completely free of any terrorist connections, it's obviously a dreadful thing to have happened. But I also think the police and security services are in an impossible situation where they are damned if they don't come up with the intelligence that would have prevented the actions of the suicide bombers of 10 days ago... but they are also damned if things go tragically wrong.

[Coco]

Absolutely Catalpa.  Couldn't agree more!  Sh1t happens, as they say. 

[RobS]

From what I have read of eywitness reports, it would seem that this man was followed as a suspect by a number of plain clothed police. At Stockwell Rd Tube Station he was challenged by them and instead of stopping, leapt the barrier and ran down the escalator followed by police shouting at him to stop. He didn't but ran onto a train followed by the police who then shot him a number of times as a suspected suicide bomber.

I'm not condoning the police here as I think shooting someone 4 or 5 times in the head could be considered a tad excessive. However I do think this man did (in the heightened atmosphere following Thursday attempted bombings) contribute to his own misfortune. If he had stopped when asked he may be alive now. I just hope that he wasn't a muslim.

[Clarkkent]

I feel depressed by this.

The man was a Brazilian evidently, I wonder if his experience of authority in his home country caused him to run? (There was a stupid posting on this forum a couple of days ago purporting to compare Brazil favourably with Britain.)

A police officer - no doubt hyped up by the sense of continuing danger - will now probably face a murder charge, and other policemen may refuse to carry arms. A small victory for the terrorists, who will feel emboldened by the chaos they are creating.

But I still feel that this matter will be dealt more honourably and with greater honesty than anywhere else I know.

 

[Nick Trollope]

But I still feel that this matter will be dealt more honourably and with greater honesty than anywhere else I know.

Where is the honour of a Met Police Commissioner who told us all that the dead man was connected to the terrorist bombings? There is no way they could of suspected that. What is honourable about shooting anyone (terrorist or no) in the head, when they are disabled on the ground? I doubt that the officer will face any charges (I would love to be proven wrong). I equally doubt that Sir Ian Lair will experience any hiccoughs in his brilliant career.

The RUC had a shoot-to-kill policy. What did that achieve?

France is a Police State (under one of the UN's - or Amnestys' criteria). Britain is heading that way, but without the "honesty". Brasil is an equally controlled society. Perhaps this unfortunate didn't speak English and didn't recognise the fact that the bloke waving a gun at him was a copper. It is reasonable to assume that he made no aggressive gestures, or is wearing an inappropriate coat only a capital offence for non English-speakers?

There is little point in trying to defend the indefensible or to argue against jingoism. I only hope that none of you lot are non IC1 with teenage children. Has anyone watched an excellent film - "The Seige". Definitely recommended viewing.

 

[SaligoBay]

Yes, we know NOW that he was Brazilian, we know NOW that he had unfortunate taste in coats.

Did you know this at the time?   Bet you didn't.  Could you pick out the suicide bombers among all the millions of people who travel through London every day?  Bet you couldn't.

It is all unfortunate beyond words, but for the moment I can only believe that for most of the services involved, their main desire is to prevent more mass murders, because they were there for the last lot, and I'm sure they don't want to go through it again.   Look at last night's mess in Sharm-el-Sheikh if you've already forgotten about London.  It's not nice.

Blame the bombers (or their controllers), because if they hadn't done what they did, this particular situation wouldn't have arisen.   It's part of a much bigger problem than the handful of allegedly trigger-happy cops that you're obsessed with.

p.s. I know you're not really serious, because that stuff about France being a police state based on honesty......  toc toc, ils sont fous, ces Anglais! 

[Tresco]

Nick, I agree with much of what you say, except this:

Where is the honour of a Met Police Commissioner who told us all that the dead man was connected to the terrorist bombings? There is no way they could of suspected that.

The police followed the guy from a house that was under surveillance, because of the attempted attacks a couple of days ago.

I responded to Pink Fluff's assertion (earlier today) knowing that lots of younger people share accomodation in London. My concern about that particular aspect of Pink Fluffs post was that he was implying that if someone is coming out of a house under suspicion, then he his guilty.

I am speculating here, but it seems to me that the police were, perhaps understandably acting on the same basis (as me here, Pink Fluff and others earlier, though in a different way).

Anything else I could add here about this incident would be at the moment pure speculation also. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I think both Coco and TeamedUp have given good reasons why it's not good to induge in it incessantly.

By the way, the whole of my (adult) family were interviewed by Special Branch in (about) 1973 with regard to IRA activities. It turned out that an IRA operative had our phone number and address in England, taken 4 years previously from my oldest sister, who had been at University in NI. It's a long story, but one that we have been talking about recently in our family, due to current events, and how secretive, careful, and forward looking these organisations are.

ps My dad was a Royal Marine Commando, he got interviewed the same as the rest.

 

 

 

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Yes, we know NOW that he was Brazilian, we know NOW that he had unfortunate taste in coats. Did you know this at the time? Bet you didn't. Could you pick out the suicide bombers among all the mill...[/quote]

SB, my knowledge of the incident is not the issue. My issue is with the fact that a foreign national was gunned down on a London underground train by a British Policeman.

He (the cop) could not have known that the bloke was a bomber, as no evidence to suggest that he was has come to light. He was not even Asian for pity's sake! There is no way that it is acceptable (even in France!) to execute someone on suspicion. The shoot-to-kill policy is wrong and at fault.

My honesty reference was to the fact that we (French residents?) all know that the Gendarmes are here as a "public control" (rather than investigative) division of the Army. Nobody would pretend they are anything else. This is not true for the somewhat shady bits of the UK Police.

Why do you assume that I have forgotten anything? There is no immediate connection between the bombings in Egypt & London (other than the religious one). If you want to find a connection, start looking in Iraq.

I get my (embarrassingly) pacifist views from my Mother, who was an "operative" in WWII France. One mans Mother is another countries terrorist.

 

[RobS]

Nick, not all the bombers are asian. At least two seem to have afro carribean roots, so the police cannot judge who is a terrorist just from initial appearance.

[Quillan]

Fancy shooting somebody for bad taste in cloths, is this the ultimate in Fashion police?

Seriously now, we can all speculate but know body will know what was really going on for some time. I think the police were right to shoot him, if in fact it was the police. By that I mean that I bet the old SAS and SBS are now patrolling the underground and train stations.

A a leading woman barrister once said better to lock up 20 innocent men than let one peadafile get loose. I believe it's the same with the terrorist situation. Very sad it was the wrong bloke but what if it was a bomber and he killed 30 or 40 people we would all be saying where are the police, why are they doing nothing. He is a innocent casualty of war, not a war that UK started but a religious war as far as the people planting the bombs are concerned.

In fact I would go either further and actually agree with Tony B in as much as the Muslim community MUST take some responsibility and weed out these people including those that incite others to commit these atrocities and they should be ejected from the country, British passport holders are not. Its no good talking to the intellectuals like he (TB) did the other day he needs to talk to people who are involved at street level. What I can't understand is why the good ( and there are many of them) muslims allow these minority to behave the way they do.

[Deimos]

Without actually knowing anything relevant, I would suggest that there may be a number of reasons to run when challenged. Maybe he did not understand (language), maybe he was carrying e.g. drugs or stolen goods (not justifying the death penalty), maybe he just did not trust the police, etc.. Thing is he knew he was not a terrorist so he probably had no idea that he was being pursued as one and no idea of the penalty that could carry.

With regard to dead people not being able to explode bombs – well switches can be set to work both ways. Thus once activated, it may be necessary to continue to hold a sprung switch to prevent the bomb exploding – and if you shot the person they will release the contact and .. (another tragedy).

I do feel sorry for the officers involved. My attitude would be to question those who gave the “shot to kill” orders. As with so many things, the person who may be the instigator of such things is probably hidden well away, safe from pretty well everything.

Another sad aspect is that all these things help the terrorists “win”.

Ian

[Missy]

[quote]So you shoot a suicide bomber in the leg - and he lets the bomb go - think about it for a minute...[/quote]

And now?....

Possibly I was right to have had the reservations I showed...

There must be ways to stop a man in this kind of situation but not to find that the hapless person was the wrong one at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Medical/pharmaceutical technology is quite advance nowadays...    so why doesn't the medical/pharmaceutical world advise on the use of some kind of tranquiliser/anestetic dart as vets and zoologists do to animals they need to operate on. 

At least this poor chap would still be around to explain his actions.

My thoughts are to his family and friends and also to the unfortunate policeman who pulled the trigger. Once all the dust has settled on this, I won't be surprised if the dead man's family will drag him out for a civil action court case of some kind....

 

[Nick Trollope]

[quote]Nick, not all the bombers are asian. At least two seem to have afro carribean roots, so the police cannot judge who is a terrorist just from initial appearance.[/quote]

Would they have shot him if he was an IC1? I doubt it. Which, in my book suggests that the copper shot him becuase he was "foreign", with all that implies...

 

[Iceni]

If he had been a bomber (one of the things I remember listening to the TV is that travellers should be wary of those dressed in an inappropriate manner for the time of year - and heavy coats have been used for years by suicide bombers in Israel).

If he had been challenged and set off his bomb.

If hundreds including 'special forces' had been killed:

Our police and other forces would be to blame and called crap.

If he ran away from the police/special forces because he was scared and the police had not followed

If he had been behaving in a strange manner and not been followed

If the police/special forces had not followed the training that they have all received to keep LONDONERS safe

Our policeand other forces would be to blame and called crap.

Thank God that some men are brave enough to do this terrible and horrible job to at least attempt to control what is now a disastrous situation and one that looks like it can only get worse.

Accidents will happen and we did not start it. We just attempted to train brave men who get paid a simple wage to serve and protect us and ours in the UK. If you don't like the way they do their job, volunteer, train and do it your way.

The innocent have nothing to fear - at least from our forces, everything to fear from their enemies.

Some time in the past, in a situation that impaced directly on our personal lives a bomb went off triggered by someone with a probable IC1 profile, Nick, I think you are very very wrong in your suggestion - all of my above comments realate to any race or creed - you have a much shorter memory than many.

[Missy]

>>>The innocent have nothing to fear - at least from our forces, everything to fear from their enemies.<<<

Tell that to the poor innocent chap with 5 bullets in his head!