BNP/FN vote is about rage rather than race

[Tresco]

[quote user="hastobe"]Treating children equally should mean that - to give one group of children in the school all the usual school holidays...and then all the muslim holidays as well - whilst telling the non muslim children (white and afrocarribean) that they have to attend school while their muslim classmates are on holiday is unfair and is not seen as a 'positive action' in the eyes of the children who have to remain in school.

The uniform accommodations I was referring to was allowing the muslim in the school to wear bright pink, green etc traditional muslim dress whilst giving a white child with the wrong colour shoelaces detention - and, believe it or not, it happened!!

Positive discrimination may be illegal but it is practiced - for example an advert on the intranet at work stated that 'prefernce would be given to ethnic minorities'.  This was considered to be acceptable!  If that advert had been rewritten and the words changed to 'preference will be given to white candidates'  I think the repurcussions would have been pretty serious.

Hastobe

[/quote]

Hastobe, you may have missed the point I made about major Christian 'festivals' being 'covered' by school holidays anyway. So Christians automatically get to spend the precious time with their families, whereas without the allowance, muslims and jews (for instance) don't.

To treat all the children equally perhaps no regular holidays should fall on those major (christian) religious dates, and all children should have 10 days a year to take when the major festival appropriate to them falls? Or maybe not.

As far as I am aware there is no requirement for muslims to wear whole outfits of certain colours. Frankly I find it hard to get to grips with the whole 'modesty' thing anyway, but colours. That's a new one on me, so I really would be interested to know where/when (roughly) this incident happened. Did it make the papers, for instance?

The example from the internet you gave: can you still access that advert. If it was at your work I would imagine that's possible. Is it possible to also see the words (if any) which preceeded the ones you quoted, and those following them?.

[Dick Smith]

Hastobe (it would be nice to have a name to answer to) - you can make snide remarks about Surrey as much as you want, but I have worked since 1973 in a comprehensive school in Wandsworth, inner London. I do know a bit about what I am talking about, and I don't get my examples 'from the internet' (Stormforce?).

And if this kid was so good, why were they wearing wrong colour shoelaces? How long was the detention? I gave a boy a 5-minute detention yesterday for talking while I was calling the register. He is white. Was I being racist? Discriminatory? How long was the detention for the shoelaces? Was this your child? Are you getting things out of proportion?

[Russethouse]

Hastobe, If you, or anyone else really wants to know what it's like to grow up as a Pakistani immigrant in Luton, do let me know (by Pm )and I will happily put you in touch with a family friend who will will be able to tell you from personal experience,  IMHO its always good to have both sides of the picture.

[hastobe]

I agree with your point about all children being able to enjoy their

religous holidays with their families  - and the ten flexible days

would be an excellent idea -(though probably an administrative

nightmare).  The proble was there were a number of different

ethnic groups represented in the school - but the concessions were only

given to the muslim children - not the jewish, hindu or rastafarian

kids.  And these groups felt just as resentful as the christian

kids.  In fact the whole issue led to angry fights outside the

school which required regular police patrols in the area for a while

afterwards - and they were not white against black but white,

afrocaribean etc against the muslim children

I have to say I couldn't understand the uniform 'flexibilities'  -

the children had the option of trousers so I didn't understand the need

for them to wear religious or traditional dress in school.  School

uniforms are a great leveller - and, imho, all children should be

required to adhere to them.

The school concerned was Brownhills High School, Tunstall - the

incident happened a couple of years ago.  I could give you the

pupil's name but it is probably not appropriate on a public forum.

Unfortunately the job advert was advertised on the intranet about 12

months ago - and was changed after I (politely!) pointed out that it

may not be the most appropraite way of phrasing the advert.  There

may often be a good reason for appointing someone of a particular

ethnic minority in place of a white person - where, for example the

majority of the potential employee's clients / patients etc are of that

same ethinic background and would benefit from having someone who

speaks their native language / understands their culture etc.  But

this is not the same as having quotas.  It is simply a skill /

attribute that makes that person better qualified to do the job than

another individual.

Hastobe

[hastobe]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]..and I don't get my examples 'from the internet' (Stormforce?).

[/quote]

I don't get my examples from the internet - they are all actual

incidents and I can provide places and approximate dates.  The

shoe laces weren't brightly coloured - they simply had a coloured

thread in them - hardly a hanging offence when considered alongside

someone wearing lime green satin from neck to ankle.

Hastobe.

[hastobe]

[quote user="Russethouse"]Hastobe, If you, or anyone else really wants

to know what it's like to grow up as a Pakistani immigrant in Luton, do

let me know (by Pm )and I will happily put you in touch with a family

friend who will will be able to tell you from personal

experience,  IMHO its always good to have both sides of the

picture.[/quote]

I have quite a number of my own Pakistani friends thank you.  But

that doesn't mean I agree with discrimination (positive or otherwise),

quotas, ghetto cultures etc etc

I don't think there is anything more to be gained out of continuing

posting on this thread.  As I said above - the thread was

exploring the reasons people vote (or say they will vote) for BNP -

which I have done.  Clearly the censorship of political

correctness is here too...it is not appropriate to express concerns -

one should just accept them as part of the price we have to pay for

having colonised in our distant past.  Positive discrimination is

the way we all salve our consciences.

Hastobe

[Tresco]

Hastobe

Then we  shouldn't blame the Muslims who took advantage of what was apparently their 'right', but the 'school' for being inconsistent. 

I had a quick look at the report for the school from Feb 2005 which says there is good racial harmony there. Perhaps things are improving?

http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:JFwpVS2Oo64J:www.ofsted.gov.uk/reports/124/124383.pdf+Brownhills+High+School,+Tunstall+&hl=en&gl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=1

The uniform thing I still don't understand. you mentioned colours, not 'modesty'?

No, it's not appropriate (in my opinion) to give a childs name unless it is already in the public domain.

The advert, well that's a shame. Do you work for a large organisation? I don't need/want details, but if a qualified personnel officer posted an advert that contravened the law I would be very surprised.

I agree with you about quotas. Appointing someone solely on the basis of their race/'colour' and ignoring their qualifications/skills seems very stupid (and indeed racist) to me.

However I can think of good reasons why people would try to attract applications from people who do face discrimination, and who do have the skills/attributes neccessary for the job. Having done so, if they then appoint a candidate from those groups, I think that is a good thing.

 

 

[Tresco]

[quote user="hastobe"]...  it is not appropriate to express concerns - one should just accept them as part of the price we have to pay for having colonised in our distant past.  Positive discrimination is the way we all salve our consciences.[/quote]

Well, it it wasn't illegal maybe it would be!

Our colonising past isn't that distant, in fact don't we Brits and the French still have a few 'dependencies' knocking around? [:)]

What did your Pakistani friends have to say about the lime green satin worn to school? Again, I'm not asking for names and numbers. I am really interested.

 

[Bassman]

[quote user="Tresco"]

Hastobe

Then we  shouldn't blame the Muslims who took advantage of what was apparently their 'right', but the 'school' for being inconsistent. 

[/quote]

 

Good point [;-)]

Positive Discrimination????? always seems like a contradiction in terms to me, I see nothing positive about discrimination of any kind[:(]

 

When I worked for the DoE we had a circular come round advertising opportunities for "accelerated advancement" ( grade skipping promotion in English [:)]) which looked great until you read it and realized it said these opportunities were only open to "ethnic minorities" [blink] this did not go down well with anybody including many of my colleagues from ethnic minorities !!! they felt insulted that they would be judged fit for promotion  based on their racial background instead of their abilities, if someone had wanted to design a way of stirring up trouble that seemed an ideal way to do it, mind you nothing compared to the outcry that would have occurred had it said they were only open to white anglo saxons and I would have felt equally insulted had it said as such, people should be judged as individuals not as members of some "group" [;-)]

Another example of attempted positive discrimination was the disabled persons employment regs where employers over a certain size had to employ a percentage of people with disabilities, having worked as a DRO I can say that didn't really work either, as quite often there were not enough people with disabilities to fill the quotas and to be honest most employers just wanted someone to do the job disabled or otherwise, their only criteria was the ability to do the job required, and speaking as someone with disabilities I found it somewhat insulting before I started work in the DoE to be getting job interviews on that basis[:(]

[SaligoBay]

[quote user="Tresco"]

What did your Pakistani friends have to say about the lime green satin worn to school?

[/quote]

Satin?   Satin?   French Muslims cover themselves in polyester from head to toe.  You lot have got it made in Britain!  [:)]

[Gluestick]

There are indeed examples of positive discrimination.

A good friend of mine, who lives on Essex (on the edge of Constable country), fought the 1997 general election as a Lib Dem candidate: in a staunch Tory area. He achieved the biggest ever swing to Lib Dem.

Realistically, he knew he didn't have a prayer, but entered the contest for political experience and very valuable it was too.

Now, shortly afterwards, as a long-term Lib Dem Councillor, he applied to fight the Euro election, as he wanted to be an MEP. Married, three great children and honours degree in Modern Languages, fluent in french and Italian and pretty good Spanish, Portuguese and German too. Ex Royal Navy (Fleet Air Arm and specially selected to train with the Duke of York); oh, and an MBA from CUBS, too.

So all in all, a perfect type to fight the UK's corner in Strasbourg.

Wrong! He was told that he could not be selected as the Lib Dems needed more women applicants!

Never mind their qualifications and abilities, they wanted women!

To me, a prime example of a society gone barking.

 

[Quillan]

It would seem that Margaret Hodges fears were well founded with the BNP taking 11 seats from Labour in Barking and Dagenham. A sad day really but then what with Fords now closed and mass unemployment in the area I guess people will vote for anyone telling them what they want to hear which often is not the truth.

[Russethouse]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4968406.stm

I wonder what will happen in the re shuffle ?

[Gluestick]

Not a lot!

If you think of the examples of Peter Mandelson and David Blunkett, after a short time in the wilderness, then all will be forgiven and the same faces will be brought back again.

Interesting point of view, Quillan. Many Middle Englanders I have spoken to recently are attracted to the BNP, as they seem to offer some certain change to the perpetual seesaw effect of Tory: Labour.

But that's the big problem with electoral platforms: most voters fail to read between the lines: or feel very strongly once their fond expectations are disabused by reality!

And that's precisely how Blair learned from Thatcher and sucessfully highjacked what passed for democracy.