Are There Too Many English In Our Hamlet !

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Logan"]

You cannot control the free market. Or as one famous lady once said, “If you try and buck the market then the market will buck you”. The market economy is the life blood of the world and you tinker with it at your peril. It’s been tried before and always with disastrous results. To advance yourself materially and provide some financial security you need the market. Without the market we all stagnate. The market rewards those in society who are prepared in their lives to make personal effort and take risks. If you regulate markets you remove individual incentive, inventive creativity and socio- economic progress. I agree that some negative aspects of the market should have some light controls. However I believe that in the end the market regulates itself through simple supply and demand.

The rising housing market provides ordinary working people with a future and an opportunity for life enhancement beyond that of their ancestors. In life there will always be winners and losers. The idea that governments should constantly meddle in the free market and in direct consequence our lives, for me is unacceptable and wrong.  

 [/quote]

I would say in reply to you, Logan, that there has never been and never will be any free market anywhere in the world.  Check it out.  Every single government, local and national regulates, subsidises, and controls the market.  It also takes something right out of the market, like education, medical care, fire prevention and often roads or some forms of transport.  Most writers I have ever read also recognise the protectionism and control of the market that all rich countries had during their early industrial history.  Your rather extreme, but eloquent and lyrical view of the history of the world and the working of the market is simply wrong.  But I doubt there is anything that I could say that would change your mind.  Do you honestly think that the British government does not regulate, control and deal with all the aspects of the "market"?  The truth is that I have never in my life come across someone who thinks that what you said is an accurate description of life.  In fact, I think you got me.  Its a joke, right.  I fell for it.

Perhaps I could add that I am not against all forms of market, but only extremist, fanatic marketeers.  But I do take the joke.  I just didn't get it.

[Logan]

Really TreizeVents, "history of the world". I don’t think so. In these brief exchanges in forum posts generalisation is generally accepted in order to briefly communicate a point. If I were to write a history of the world or a history of the market, firstly it would be very boring and secondly it would run to several volumes. Of course markets are regulated by governments; of course government benefits from markets. I didn't think I needed to point out the blindingly obvious. In some successful countries such as the USA regulation is relatively light. In France and Germany it’s over the top in my opinion.

You suggested the housing market in France should be regulated more than it currently is. In your view this would create more social equality. Did I not understand your point correctly? I disagree fundamentally if that’s what you think. Lighter regulation of markets creates increased prosperity. That battle has been won in all but a few countries. Globalisation of trade means greater competition. To compete in world markets you need less regulation, restrictive practices and a flexible labour market. The world has moved on and no one can buck the dynamics. The only route in my opinion to greater social equality is through hard work and motivation in a free market.

 

[marc62]

I am very sorry as this must be the first negative reply I have written - But, we are all entitled to an opinion.

Are those people who state that there are too many (non French) people in the village, willing to act upon the statement by selling up & leaving? I doubt it.

As long as it is legal, the sellers sell (remember that they were all French once), the buyers buy (it is only supply & demand which dictates the price) the only other matter to be discussed is the moral, which brings us all back to opinions.

I for one would do anything to move out full time to a country which I love (yes I am english), but by doing so I would adopt to the French way of life as that is why we like it so much anyway. Like it or not the EU is here to stay which gives people from all member states rights to live or to work & more important, to contribute to the economy & live your life in the way of your adopted country. For those who do not like it you have a choice - move.

Regards

Marc

[RumziGal]

[quote user="marc62"]

I would adopt to the French way of life as that is why we like it so much anyway. [/quote]

What do you see as "the French way of life"?    Will you start taking anti-depressants, for example?   They're very popular.   [:)]    

[marc62]

[quote user="RumziGal"][quote user="marc62"]

I would adopt to the French way of life as that is why we like it so much anyway. [/quote]

What do you see as "the French way of life"?    Will you start taking anti-depressants, for example?   They're very popular.   [:)]    

[/quote]

Ha Ha

Living in the South East & spending my working life traveling around the country from traffic jam to traffic jam, shops open 7 days a week selling trash for a high price, no values, dirty smelly enviroment, potential to die younger.

I will take the ant-depressants please anyday

Cheers

 

Marc

[Tag]

Incentive can only be encouraged when the targets are feasible. So, let young people buy their property part by part, as they can afford it, the rest belonging to a housing association of some sort. (Though not the same as in UK at the moment). Let them work as hard as they like until they pay off the house in say 20 or more years. Also, tax profits on houses, even first homes.

[Tag]

Logan, this view is really rather idealistic isn't it? The market is controlled by the strongest and richest in their own interests. Look at the USA, subsidising cotton and killing competition at home whilst dumping it cheap abroad. Europe with food exports is the same thing. Totally free markets are an ideal that can never work, like freedom without responsibility.

[Tag]

The new Europe certainly does not give freedom to work and live where you want to. Ask the Poles and Hungarians, the Romanians. And why are most jobs in the service sector in France reserved for French nationals, why don't the French recognize others' qualifications?

As for the fears of Turkey?

[Alan Zoff]

Wearing my best hypocrite's hat, I would certainly be disappointed if "my" small French village turned into something like one of the several overrun Spanish pueblos - Blackpool on the Med (perhaps an unlikely label for a village smack in the centre of France). I also own up to a fair measure of snobbery, inverted or otherwise, and have got a certain kick out of being l'Anglais rather than one of les Anglais.

My plan is to enjoy it while it lasts. And then? Who knows? There is no Utopia but I know that I like some environments better than others and for as long as I am fortunate enough to have a choice, I will try to exercise it.

[Logan]

And why are most jobs in the service sector in France reserved for French nationals, why don't the French recognize others' qualifications?

Because of overbearing government regulation and protectionism. The EU allows opt - out clauses.

There is no Utopia but I know that I like some environments better than others and for as long as I am fortunate enough to have a choice, I will try to exercise it.

That's called exercise of market preference.

[Alan Zoff]

Agreed. I would have added something along the same lines but frankly ran out of interest in my own post and the thread itself. Village life will change and - other than adapt or move on - there is nothing I can do about it, whether or not I approve.

[timc17]

How about 'Are There Too Many Poles In Britain' or 'Too Many French In London'.

In a free-movement Europe does it matter who lives where?

[andyh4]

Of course what everyone has missed is that this (Brits moving to France and becoming the majority in their commune) is all part of a fiendish plan devised by Blair, Brown et al. to take back Aquitaine for the British.  Long live Elenor and Henry.[:D]

[Alan Zoff]

The original question was about the effect of several Brits moving into a hamlet (very small community) rather than on the wider subject of people moving between countries.

500 Poles moving to Gloucestershire might mean the opening of a new supermarket in Cheltenham selling unusual (to us) produce. No problem there. 10 moving into a rural community with only 5 other houses is going to have a more dramatic impact on that community.

Whether this is good or bad is subjective but it will change things for the people who have always lived there and it is understandable that they might not all welcome such change. It will also change things for hypocrites like me who have selected the rural French community for its "pre-invasion" character. But I don't believe anything is to be gained by trying to legislate against it. Who decides? What are the criteria?

[Dick Smith]

[quote user="andyh4"]Of course what everyone has missed is that this (Brits moving to France and becoming the majority in their commune) is all part of a fiendish plan devised by Blair, Brown et al. to take back Aquitaine for the British.  Long live Elenor and Henry.[:D][/quote]

A move I have long advocated. We have almost succeeded with Normandy. Onwards and upwards!

[TreizeVents]

[quote

user="Logan"]

 Of course markets are regulated by

governments; of course government benefits from markets. I didn't think I

needed to point out the blindingly obvious. In some successful countries such

as the USA

regulation is relatively light. In France

and Germany

it’s over the top in my opinion.

You suggested

the housing market in France

should be regulated more than it currently is. In your view this would create

more social equality. Did I not understand your point correctly? I disagree

fundamentally if that’s what you think. Lighter regulation of markets creates

increased prosperity. That battle has been won in all but a few countries.

Globalisation of trade means greater competition. To compete in world markets

you need less regulation, restrictive practices and a flexible labour market.

The world has moved on and no one can buck the dynamics. The only route in my

opinion to greater social equality is through hard work and motivation in a

free market.

 [/quote]

You

have indeed understood my point.  I think.  I should add that I am

not normally an advocate of strong government regulation, its just that I see

no other group or organisation that can stop the rampant property speculation

and profiteering that goes on in our world.  You know, when I first came

to Britain, in 1970, loads of people owned their own homes, but no one knew “the

current price”.  Now everyone knows the price and people talk about like

its interesting or stimulating.  A house should not be a commodity, any

more than health, education, fire fighting, road building, clean water and air,

public transport and other common goods.  Your world will turn them all

into commodities, for sale to those who have the money.  And those who

don't, well, they are not flexible enough, competitive enough, selfish enough

... they are just losers, so let them die, or be ill, or badly housed or

without mobility.  Who cares.

 

My

point was that throughout the nineteenth and twentieth century in England,

France, Germany and America, governments regulated, controlled, subsidised and

protected domestic markets.  This is the way it works.  And the way

it still does work, without exception.  The "free market" is not

free.  It is controlled in the interests, nearly always, of those that

have, and not in the interests of those who have not.  For example, the

large, rich farmers in France and Britain get by far the largest

subsidies.  Same in Britain.  The tax system always hits the poor

harder than the rich, although maybe the middle classes take the biggest hit in

some places.  The flexible labour market does not penalise the well off,

but makes sure the poorer ones have to take any job at all (McJobs), just to

live.  So those who talk about "free market" are simply

describing something that does not exist, and never has.  It just gives

them the “logic” to commodify more things, and let people be losers and die.

 

Let me ask you a

question.  Would you say that the distribution of income (or wealth) in Britain

or America has got worse or better in the last fifty years, or thirty years if

you like.  Not the actual amount of money, but the proportions that people

actually get.  In other words, simply put, do you think the rich have got

richer and the poor have got poorer or the reverse or what.  You can

choose the world at large, or any country you like.  The debate that has

been won, (and I do agree with you there, AT THE MOMENT) just lets the poor get

relatively poorer, and the rich get relatively richer.  If that's the

world you want, go for it, you are on the winning team.  And if you

actually think the rich have got poorer or the poor have got richer, well, I

guess you don't look for data, just repeat your mantra. 

With all respect, even though I am sure you are nice guy, I doubt if there is much

point in carrying on, besides the fact that this is not really on the topic of

the thread.  Of course many of the people on this forum are on the comfy

end of things, so they are, globally, and maybe even in their neighbourhoods,

the rich.   So for most of them what I say is nonsense or irritating or something

they don’t want to hear.  In fact, sometimes I wonder why it is that I sit

here typing this.  I might not be alone however.  I am not going to

change your totally extremist (majority, for sure) view that capitalism, the

"free" market, competition, less regulation, and a flexible labour

market will bring progress and benefit to all mankind.  I don't think you

are right, and you don't think I am right.  So we carry on, each of us on

our path.  Mine requires a few hours a week of activism to try and change

the trend you love to promote.  Yours, well, I guess you just sit back and

enjoy it, ignoring the actual effects on the distribution of wealth , income

and opportunities for the losers.  But you are definitely in the majority,

especially in Britain.  Here, in France, there is still a bit of

resistance to this "new world".  I am glad I live here ... in

that respect.

So we will just have to disagree.  But do remember that, although we might

not win, there is a small and growing number of people who are trying to change

the trend you promote.  We might get lucky.  And we might be

right.  If you want the last word, its yours.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Logan"]

I don't accept that a 'have' and 'have not' situation is reasonable.

Please explain how you would create incentive without that rational? People need motivation to get them out of bed in the morning.

[/quote]

Maybe, like most people I know, they like living their life, they like their family, they like their friends, they have food one their table and they get up each morning with no problem.  You are really beyond belief.

[Alan Zoff]

or downwards

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Alan Zoff"]

or downwards

[/quote]Ah hah!

I lived in a rural community in the UK.  Close enough to London to be commutable but full of nice, pretty idylic little cottages so you could really feel as though you lived the country life.  Sadly, for the natives of the area, it was also the home of a very good school, which had been established in Tudor times and allowed for a percentage of the more intelectually gifted children in the local community to attend without paying fees.  Now.. guess what happened to this lovely little market town?

Yes, wealthy people with well-paid jobs in London moved in en masse, taking advantage of free schooling for their off-spring (whom of course started their education at fee-paying primary schools where they were crammed until they dropped so they'd get the free places.)  The slightly less wealthy took advantage of the fact that the few council houses in the area were suddenly being sold off at lower prices than the little cottages and bought them too, with the same end in view.

I worked for a while in the local supermarket and it was, as you will imagine, generally staffed by people whose families had lived in the area for generations but who were not perhaps clever enough, or enjoyed the right kind of support from their families and teachers, which would have encouraged them towards higher and further education.  There was no way, given the feeble wages offered by such businesses (the only ones with any jobs for them) that they could begin to afford to buy a house in their locality.

Result? Huge resentment towards the "incomers."

Not surprising really, was it?  I can't but help see some parallels between this and the situation some are describing which is happening here.  Can you?

[Logan]

Well I hope you will forgive me TriezVents but you sound very downbeat about life. I am sure you are personally much more optimistic than your words. I believe the market provides us all with realistic optimism and hope that our futures can be brighter and better. Often, I and people who share my particular political point of view are accused of not caring about others. Not true. In fact in my youth at Uni. I was a dedicated Marxist. I had a tutor who was dismissed from Berkley CA. for being too extreme. I thought he was the bee’s knees. I actually do care about ordinary folk. As a concequence I believe their best hope for a more prosperous and fulfilled life is through market forces. Not with regulation, restrictive practice, protectionism and removal of incentive.  Now let’s not repeat all that again. We will have to agree to differ now. If Sarkozy wins the election then we can come back in five years time and see if France is better or worse. French villages will be overrun with jonnie foreigners of all shapes and creeds. We will all have an Indian take away in the local square. The Maire will come from Birmingham. The French will have all moved to England and the Maghreb will become a French colony once more under Le Pen. Now that’s optimistic ne l’est pas?[:)]

[Wendy]

Dick, your post at 22.36 really hit the nail on the head. I didn't bother reading on any further as time does not permit. Many French do not want non-French buying their houses and occupying their villages. I say 'many' not 'all'. They do not want a multicultural France. Afterall, this country has a policy of integration , not diversity. 'Become one of us' in other words.

On the same note, ALOT of English come here because of England's multicultural policies. Too many foreigners have moved there and they do not like it.

The difference is that here in France, the French will not move out. They wont sell up and leave their country like the English do. Their tact is 'lets just make things harder for them so they won't want to stay'. And, as we all know, many English DO leave when the going gets too tough.

We had an English guy stay with us on a househunting trip 18 months ago, he said he left England because of the 'foreigners'.  He was travelling around France for a place to buy and settled on our area because 'there are no blacks here like there are in Paris'.  I do not know if he bought a place here in the end but I certainly would not cross the street to acknowledge him if he did.

There are some areas in this country that just do not want us 'outsiders'. C'est petit France!.

 

[chessfou]

[quote]In some successful countries such as the USA regulation is relatively light.[Logan][/quote]

Ha, ha, ha. This thread was getting a bit serious but that brightened it up.

Have you ever tried importing stuff into the USA?

Have you ever incorporated a business in the USA?

I have and I reckon the US bureaucrats could teach the guys in Mumbai a thing or two (let alone here in France) about how to make life impossible ("Catch 22" is, after all, an Americanism) and that was all before the advent of Sarbanes-Oxley!

[cooperlola]

Thanks, chessfou.  And have you ever even tried visiting?  You get thumbprinted, photographed., date-stamped..goodness knows what.... and the site of all those overweight policemen with their guns is enough to send you rushing back onto the 'plane.  Happily, fine once you get out of the airport - eventually!

[Charlotte3]

Gosh,

Sounds just like home....Northern Ireland!! (only it doesn't get better out of the airport)

Aly

[Alan Zoff]

My daughter has just informed me that her Irish mother-in-law (in a small village in Eire) is thinking of giving up her job at the local supermarket because she feels isolated - she is unable to chat to the other staff during her breaks as she can't speak Polish.