Are There Too Many English In Our Hamlet !

[Tag]

So what are most Brits in France then? I suspect they are more likely to be expats, given that most seem to return to UK in later years

[MrCanary]

Based on Dick's interpretation of 'ex-pats' and 'immigrants' (which I agree with) there is little doubt that the majority of Brits in France are ex-pats.

I believe French folk are more receptive to British immigrants. In my experience, they genuinely like us, but want us to be a regular part of their community, taking part in their events and contributing to them, rather than seeing us occasionally or temporarily.

As an aside, does anyone remember that old song that had the lyrics, "and we'll have coffee-colured people by the score"? Well, in the UK, it is slowly happening isn't it....

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]An expat lives in the country of their birth, wherever in the world they happen to be; the immigrant lives in the country he is in.
[/quote]

Ooooohhhhhhh I'm cringing a bit here, Dick.   North Africans are usually referred to as "immigrés" and are often criticised of bringing their way of life with them.

In Europe at least, I think it's more to do with colour.   White people are expats, non-whites are immigrants.  

[YCCMB]

I had this very discussion with one of my ESOL classes the other week (majority nationality: Polish). I would quite like to be a fly on the wall when they go around telling people they are "expatriates", because I explained to them that's exactly what they are.

I think the problem is that whether it's right or wrong, the English language ( and probably French, too, RG) has somehow stigmatised "immigrant", whereas "expat" has more romantic and acceptable connotations. I seldom hear or read of British people using the word "immigrant" to describe themselves and their life in France, even if they are permanent residents with no current intention of returning to the UK. People used to "emigrate" to Australia, Canada, etc., but they all seem to just "move" to France, Spain, Portugal and Italy......

[Logan]

Judging from the replies to this rather silly post the principle of being European seems to have been ignored. Surely you can move on now from being little Englanders and see the world in broader prospective. We are all Europeans by race and culture and part of a global village. What on earth does anything else matter? Do you consider a Yorkshire man different from someone from Cornwall or a Welshman versus a Scotsman? I accept the French have some mild prejudice to the changing demography of nationality in their own backyard. However for the British to protest about too many non French moving to France is just inverted snobbery and not very attractive.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="chris pp"]

Come on, we all know it's not legal to restrict the sale of a property, if a Brit or anyone else offers the asking price it's a done deal. The maire of Melle tried this one on and it was deemed illegal.

Chris

[/quote]

You may have seen the movie Mondovino where the fight against Mondavi (not Gallo) took place.  Mondavi had the money. They had the packet of land selected after long research.  They had the desire.  But the combination of protest, election of a new Mayor who was devoted to preventing the sale did not happen.  My recollection (not necessarily to be trusted) is that the mayor can buy any property in the commune which is for sale.  I think (again details not clear) that this mayor threatened to do that.  Mondavi is not in Aniane, although they had the money and price was clear.  http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/01_36/b3747009.htm

I am sure there are better sources, but this is what I found first.

To me it is not obvious that the nationality and lifestyle of people who buy houses is irrelevant for the life of a hameau or a village.  It is also not obvious to me that people in a given area shoud have to change their lives, or have change inflicted on them, because people from another area have more money and can buy whatever they like.  Money is not all that should be used to decide questions like this, in my view. 

On the other hand, in my town of 6,500, there are only 14 English names in the phone book.  I wish there were lots more.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Tag"]

And most Brits are second homers aren't they?

 [/quote]

I am always looking for good sources of accurate data.  Where did you find this out Tag?  I myself l have no idea at all.  Around here, I don't know many second homers, they just come for a few weeks, and do holiday things, not making much contribution to life here, except to animate and populate any music, drinking or eating events. Which is why those events more often happen in the summer.

[Val_2]

Its time for these type of threads to cease. We, all of us with an interest in France albeit for residency or holiday visits have NOT been forced to come here so what does it matter who your neighbours are.The intelligent french know and understand this and can see further than the,in many cases, SOME low educated and bigotted locals who have nothing better in their lives than to ignore the incomers or make life difficult in some cases. The only thing that really upsets me are those who try to con their fellow countrymen or who will not conform and pay their dues thus stealing income from those that do.

[cooperlola]

Logan, I think there's a huge difference between having a few different nationalities and people from different backgrounds around, and a tiny village in France (the o/p's) being now 50% English speaking.  My own point was simply that I wanted to come here to meet different people, not to settle into a "little Britain" enclave.  Of course, I mix with some of the Brits round here (I actually knew 2 couples who have moved here whom I knew in England) but a cultural mix is what I'm after.  How will I ever learn about the intracacies of French politics/social life/the language etc if I never get a chance to meet the natives of the area?  That has always seemed to me to be one of the potential down-sides of that particular sort of community.  It's not for me, but of course it may be just what others are after and no doubt these are the kind of villages they will seek out before making the decision to move.  I don't really have a problem with that either if that is what they want and if they pay their taxes, register and insure their cars appropriately, and abide by the law of the land.

The 3 brit households - 5 people in all - in our (1,500) commune all live here permanently btw.

 

[Tag]

Logan, I'm afraid you are wearing rose coloured spectacles a bit there. Just look round Europe and it will be difficult to find a country which is European in the sense you define it. Except perhaps Luxemboug. Take tiny Belgium for example: the north and the south hate each other, even to the extent of using shot guns a few years ago, and will probably create separate states; in Antwerp recently there was a purely racist murder. The Walloons refuse to speak or learn Flemish and look on Flemings as a form of low life. As to peopple of North African stock on Wallonia, they are treated like sh**.

And what about the Roma people?

We could go on, but why? We are a very long way from your ideal I'm afraid.

As regards having too many Brits in an area, of course there can be too many. The crunchpoint happens when they begin to change the local culture. Most of us did not choose the melting pots of major cities to have a mixed culture, but the rather static and traditional life in rural France. The last thing we want to do is listen to the delicate accents of Essex or Brum screaming at the local shopkeeper because they have not bothered to learn the language (this is not altogether a caricature). This could equally well apply to other nationalities by the way.

Close to here ( the Vendée) there is a village whose bar has been invaded by Brits who behave as they might on a Saturday night out in, shall we say, Bristol, which means much loud drunkenness. Not appreciated by the locals and culture changing too. Also unnecessary.

It is not inverted snobbery at all, just a wish to live the life of our choice.

[Department 64]

[quote user="Mel "]

does anyone remember that old song that had the lyrics, "and we'll have coffee-colured people by the score"? Well, in the UK, it is slowly happening isn't it....

[/quote]

Is that a bad thing in your eyes, Mel? My own children are of mixed race, would that be a problem for the folk of Norwich?

 

Hardev

[5-element]

[quote user="Val_2"]

Its time for these type of threads to cease.

[/quote]

Why on earth should they? What is wrong with "these types of thread"? What exactly do you mean by "this type of thread"?

I often find them quite informative on many, many levels. I am interested in other people's perception of their immediate, and further, environment. I am interested in the world, be it France, UK, Europe, the planet, in which we all live, how we share the space, the resources. I like to find out about most of those things, and to see how we all perceive ourselves too.. What is wrong with having that sort of discussion?

Do you think there should be a policy so that there are only threads about fosse septiques, lemon trees, best deal for currency? 

I am also very pleased that there are threads about snakes, taxe d'habitation, micro-entreprise, all kinds of thread: it is a valuable source of information for many. But I cannot recall that this is the only raison d'etre of this forum? Vive la diversite!

[MrCanary]

Hi Hardev - why would that be a problem? I have so many friends of different nationalities and different colour skins that I don't actually notice it. We all look different anyway don't we?

Sorry if my reference to the song gave you the wrong impression. I was just using it to illustrate how the integration is chugging along as prophesised.

[cooperlola]

Some 20 years ago, I lived in Penge in south east London for a while.  I loved it.  All sorts of people of different ethnic backgrounds rubbed along perfectly happily.  I don't want to live near a city any more because I don't have to commute (since I don't work any longer) and I keep animals and want a better environment for them.  I like the space and the peace and quiet these days - those are the reasons I want a more bucolic lifestyle at this particular time in my life.  Nothing whatsoever to do with the racial mix here.  I couldn't give a stuff what colour they are as long as I can meet and mix with French speaking locals and people who are steeped in the culture of the area I've chosen, that is all.

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Tag"]

As regards having too many Brits in an area, of course there can be too many. The crunchpoint happens when they begin to change the local culture. [/quote]

But isn't that just the way the world works?   I think you underestimate the amount of people-movement there is and always has been in the world.   As individuals a house-move seems very special and interesting, especially if you have to cross a whole 20 miles of water to do it, but really it's nothing.       

And too many Brits?   That suggests that there is an ideal number of some sort.   Maybe a quota - so who decides which Brits are worthy?

There have been waves of Spaniards, Italians, and North Africans into France.  There's a sizeable Armenian contingent.  And a Jewish community.  A few thousand Sikhs.  There are plenty Americans.  Sarkozy's father was Hungarian.   Romans, Vikings, Jews, they're all here (along with many others), either in person or legacy.     

What makes the British so special?   Get over it!  [:)] 

   

[Tag]

This discussion was about culture, not race. As usual, one cannot have a discussion of one without the other raising its ugly head. That is the poser of PC to stifle debate I'm afraid.

[cooperlola]

I am sorry, but you can have a decent debate and still be PC.  Why is it considered so awful to consider the feelings of others and choose your words carefully so as not to offend or make sweeping statements?  For that is all that being "politically correct" entails.  If more people were pc the world would be a kinder and better place. What's so bad about that?

[Tag]

No, the British are not special in any way, believe me and having spent most of my life in 'foreign' parts I am over it. In fact I have a European marriage and children who are duals and bilingual. Funny, I thought I added other nationalities as well. And I do not need a lecture on movement of peoples in and around Europe thank you very much. However you do not answer my basic point which is that large numbers of incomers change a community in ways which often cause tension and resentment, and not always for the better in my opinion. Many secondhomers do not bring much to the community beyond holiday froth and the sheer number of either empty homes and incomers who can't (or can't be bothered to learn to) communicate actually renders the community a poorer place. I think too that taking people of urban origins and plonking them in the country is not that successful as they have little common culture and have much more to learn. Ideally I guess one should work and raise kids in a place to achieve greater cultural understanding - wat I 'ave dun in ze past.

[Gastines]

A Notaire advised us that during the 12 weeks it normally takes a sale to go through, part of his task is to advise the Maire that the house is being sold and the price. I believe the Maire can buy the property for the commune at the market price.This also affects any land that the Commune may require for expansion/development. A bit like the Spanish Land Grab but at least you get paid.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Dick Smith"]Because, I suspect, that it would upset the French who are not wholeheartedly in support of multiculturalism, and possibly many of the English who have travelled to rural France for much the same reason.

Just a suggestion, just guessing...

[/quote]

I think Dick is right.  Certainly the French are, in general, opposed to multiculturalism as an idea and a practice.  Another town near us, is almost exactly the same size, and has nearly the exact same social and economic characteristics.  But it has about four times as many foreigners, and a subtantial Maghrebin commmunity.  It is a more open town.  Ours is more closed, mainly becasue there are very few foreigners in it, and the locals have ben able to keep themselves to themseves, continuing to live thier normal lives.  This of course means exclusion or ignoring of foreigners, but hey, its their country.  I would have preferred, had I known, to live in the more open town that has more immigrants.  My other freinds in the valley around us also say they find that mixed couples, that is, French and something else, are much more open to social relations and even deep social relations.  We think that is because the non-French person has been "forced" to accept or be open to another culture, in the person of their partner.  Much different in big cities of course.

[TreizeVents]

[quote user="Mel "]

 I have so many friends of different nationalities and different colour skins that I don't actually notice it. We all look different anyway don't we?

[/quote]

Its funny, I am the exact opposite.  I notice the skin colour, nationality, age, gender, sometimes level of education if I can, how they speak, whether they seem rich or poor, their manners, their accent.  I notice ALL these differences.  I have no idea what it would be like to live a life where I didn't actually notice the differences.  Now, "dealing with the differences" is another thing.  But "not noticing" them, I have no way of understanding that way of "seeing" at all.  There you go, another difference.  Those who notice that people are brown, yellow, black or white, or maybe Scottish or Welsh or Enblish .... and those that don't.

I might also say that if there is not very much variety of people around, I get slighlty uncomfortable, but if I am the only white guy in a room, I sure notice it.  And if I am the only Brit in the room, I notice that too.  And if there is a room full of English speaking folks, I find that odd, here in France.  Certainly a hamlet with a large proprotin of them would be very noticeable.  Near us, there is a hamlet bought by a German.  Mostly Germans live there during the summer.  During the winter, no one lives there.  People notice.

[Renaud]

It is all a question of balance. Anybody who finds that 50% of their hamlet / village / town bought by incomers are bound to feel uncomfortable especially if the incomers do not speak their language well.

 In the hamlet where my sister-in-law used to live in rural Lot, 50% of the houses were owned by Parisians and others northerners who used the houses as holiday homes.

 Part of the problem is that the young people have been migrating to the towns and cities for some time as the economy has changed away from the land. Therefore the incomers are not exactly depriving the young of homes in the rural areas; they are helping halt the decline of those villages. Our neighbour has a seasonal Romanian work force on his farm claiming: “the French don’t want to work for a reasonable wage”.

 Another consideration is that the kinds of houses the French seem to prefer are new builds where there is central heating etc - not the renovation projects available in the rural hamlets that attract incomers with rose-tinted glasses.

 In our commune of 220 there are 12 British owned houses, mostly holiday homes. It is slightly ironic in that we thought that we were buying in an area passed-by by the British. (naïve or what?)- maybe it shows how effective our excellent immobilier is. We have been glad of the kindness shown by others in the commune of whatever nationality. I suspect that when/if we ever live there for longer periods I will be glad of people with whom I can converse – I despair of learning French well enough to do more than chat.

 I am shocked by Tag’s “Brits who behave as they might on a Saturday night out in, shall we say, Bristol”. One of the delights of rural France is that it is free of this kind of scum.

  Also I am slightly taken aback by the “we will not enter a supermarket if there are lots of cars with UK registrations outside” attitude it reminds me of some friends complaining that the recent incomers in their department “all seem to come from Essex”!

 It reminds me of a Cornish saying: the holidaymakers who come down for a week are looked down on by those on a month’s holiday, who in turn are looked down on by those who have taken a house for the summer, who are looked down on by those who are retired and bought a house, who are looked down on by those who were born in Cornwall. The only thing that all enjoy is a picture of a shipwreck – people who did not make it to Cornwall.

[Cerise]

Edit - missed some messages so what I wrote didn't make sense.

[Tag]

Ah Renaud, if twere only the grockles we 'ad prablems with. 'N wat a fuss they made about a bit 'o lootin' in Dorset. How 'r we poor coastal folk to live.

(Was near the Chesil, hard by Portland when they hit. Course, our fire burned well that nite. She was carryin' brandy me lads. On that was a good wreck. 'N the revenue men didnt get a sniff though they chased us across Lodmoor for days.)

[RumziGal]

[quote user="Tag"]However you do not answer my basic point which is that large numbers of incomers change a community in ways which often cause tension and resentment, and not always for the better in my opinion. [/quote]

I'm not sure what answer you expect me to give.   You seem to disapprove of incomers, yet you are one, are you not?    

There are three basic options to dealing with large numbers of incomers:

1. Accept them as they are and make the most of it.  Every culture has its potential dark side.  You see drunkenness in Brits, Viscount de Villiers is more worried about the perceived threat of Islamisation from North Africans, Dieudonné sees goodness-knows-what danger from Jews.  

2. Send them back where they came from.

3. Don't let them in in the first place.

It's really quite simple.  I'll stick with option 1, because I'm soft like that.