Murders and your children

[Marym2]

Living in London and everyday there is bad news on the murder front but now its got to the point that according to the todays news some french parents are taking steps to bring their children home after the double brutal murder of two french students. Has it got as bad as London in french cities? lots of people now live in fear although some is due to media reporting I myself walk and drive past most days 'yellow signs' asking for did 'anyone see murder robbery assult' etc but as far as I see there are no quick fix soloutions. The question is Would you bring your kids home?

[Kitty]

If our children are over 18, surely they have to make their own decisions, with some parental guidance? 

When we were 18, a lot of us were hitchhiking and sleeping on beaches and doing all sorts of 'risky' things.  Is the world now more dangerous?  Or is it that with media reporting, we perceive it to to be more dangerous?

 

[Will]

I would agree with what Cathy says. Also about the way certain parts of ther media can blow problems up to appear even worse. I would add that violent crime happens in France just like anywhere else, particularly in the big cities where there is quite a bit of racial tension, among other social problems. International crime statistics show that France actually has a slightly higher murder rate than Britain (with most other European countries around the same part of the table), so you will never escape violence.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

The South London murders do seem particularly nasty though, it will be illuminating to see who was responsible and what was the reason.

[Proxima]

There's always bad news everywhere. What people fail to hear are all the good things that people do for others. Good news does not increase newspaper sales or make for good TV reporting and does not allow for further laws to be passed to increase the governments control over us.

The more you hear of the bad things, the more you can be sure that they are being deliberately focussed upon to increase the fear, increase your sense of insecurtiy and to make you less safe.

The more you live in fear the more readily you will hand over your freedom for security, and ultimately you'll end up with neither.

The UK is already swamped with CCTV cameras that invade your privacy, even if you are out in public, what you do is your own private business as long as it does not infringe on others. There are those who now make head sets made from IR (Infra red) lights that totally disrupt the image received from CCTV so identifaction and observation becomes nigh on impossible. It wont be long before such devices become illegal. Again, this will be an attack at your privacy.

The whole idea of terrorism is part of this murder culture. It's all a scam. Even global warming seems to be part of a money making scheme rather than an actual Human issue. There \is more evidence to suggest that the current temperature/weather variations are caused by the sun rather than humans.

Would I bring my kids home? Would they be any safer than we were when we were kids? I don't think so. The only thing that has really changed is the manner and amount of reports we hear or read about.

Take a look back to the 1960's... Mods Vs Rockers and the riots down at Brighton.. and how about the miners strike and the Brixton riots and football vioilence... this has all been going on for a lot longer than the current influence of this supposed idea about global terrorism.

The words terrorism and terrorist are used in such a manner as to make it look like there is one big group of evil doers who are hell bent on creating havoc and chaos for 'law abiding citizens'. The problem here is who are we supposed to believe? Some may feel that the rights of any group up in arms against another group is the correct approach, whilst the other group feel they are correct.. A government of any description only works if you believe it does. This is the same for money, which has not been backed by gold since 1970. Money is completely and utterly worthless, yet our faith in its value is what keeps it in circulation.

It would be a choice for my kids to make. They must learn, as do we all, from life in all its ways. They would be more than welcome to come home and/or ask for help or advice and I'll gladly give it.  To deliberately force them to return against their best interests is almost an act of cowardice and over protection that borders on complete insecurity of yourself and your own personal development as well as theirs. Forcing your kids to come home is like an act of betrayal. They could be on their way home and then the aircraft/train/coach/car they are in crashes and all onboard die.. how guilty and gutted would you feel then?

Nobody can protect anybody from lifes 'what will be, will be' approach. Death smiles at us all and we can only smile back. Of course we would desperately miss those we love should anything happen, but, we should not feel bad, we should celebrate the time we shared with the wonderful people we brought into this life. Celebrate the life, the love, the tears, the smiles we all shared. One day, we will all meet again. Until then, make the best of it as you can and hold your head up high as we are all free and should never bow to no man, no matter what the consequences.

[Thibault]

All the CCTV cameras in the world will not prevent crime.  There is so much footage now, no-one can moniter it properly.   It is only in hindsight, when the crime has been committed, that the authorities can look at a specific sequence to see if they can identify anyone (and most of the time, they cannot).

Were I a cynical person, I would think that the cameras are there to give the perception of safety...........[:)]

 

[Judith]

Look at where the murder took place, New Cross Gate, for those who don't know London, not the most salubrious part and certainly not the best area of London, BUT, most of London is safe even now, if you take sensible precautions as anyone should do.  Even now, people's expectation and fear of crime, is higher than the actual crime rate would suggest they need to be.

When I first came into London from the very trusting north, I was told, NEVER give your address to anyone you don't know well enough to trust, and (in fact) don't trust anyone you do not know.  A piece of good advice all (whatever their age) would do to heed, especially in large cities. 

If we bring up children shielded from the real world of making their own decisions and taking responsibilty for their actions, they will never learn how to protect themselves from harm.  Unfortunately intelligence (and there is no doubt that the two young men were academcially gifted) does not always go hand in hand with common sense and a sense of "streetwise-ness"  (sorry made the word up, but you know what I mean). 

They now believe it was a robbery which went wrong, as there had been a attempted break in a few weeks before.  This morning the news was that a 21 yr old had  been arrested.

There is always media attention (more than I sometimes think is healthy) for these things - but murders also happen in France, sometimes to English people - so it is not a country thing, more surely a people problem?

[Frenchie]

I agree Judith..

I lived in New Cross for a year when I was a student... of course because it was cheaper.... ( shared a house with 4 British students)

It 's always been a high crime area, I doubt whether it 's worse now..

And yes, there are also  crimes in France...  Not a country thing I assume...

Probably we are more aware of those horrible events because of media coverage.

If my son was there, I wouldn't tell him to come back ..

 

[Dick Smith]

London (and to an extent Manchester) stand out as areas where there have traditionally been larger numbers of homicides than other areas.

I've just been teaching a unit of work on Victorian london. We looked at the Statistical Return of Deaths for Wandsworth for 1871. In that year there were 56 murders (population 120,000), of which 11 were young people (5 below 1 year). Most victims were male, working class, below 40.

For 2005-6 reporting year Wandsworth (population now 270,000) had 3 homicides of all types.

So clearly in the long term London (or at least this part) has become a lot safer.

Whether it was even safer in the past I can't tell, nor whether it has become more dangerous since 2006. But the panic is clearly media inspired.

[Lilly]

I am for my sins a Londoner and I have a thought that the point is being missed  a little, it is the type of crime that is indicative of a sick culteral shift in London and probably a few other big cities in the UK, it appears to me that it is the Gang, Rap, knife/Gun culture that if not serverly delt with will result in more tragic young deaths and become even more like the American gang culture that they are so desperately trying to emulate.

Forgive me for mentioning but you can't use Wandsworth as an example of a safer London, in my day and I lived in Barnes and I'm not THAT old Wandsworth was a bit ruff, nowadays it is another "posh" area Gordon Ramey lives there for gods sake (ok say no more!)

It is the youth I fear for with the binge drinking and this Gang culture I am so glad that I brought my young sons here, yes to the country side and I know I cannot protect them from everything but I wish I could,  I'm glad they are in their late teens not having the examples they would have had drummed into them as if were normal Saturday night behavior not only as a potential victim but also for being convinced that this is what they all do now.

[DZ]

[quote user="Lilly"]

I am for my sins a Londoner and I have a thought that the point is being missed  a little, it is the type of crime that is indicative of a sick culteral shift in London and probably a few other big cities in the UK, it appears to me that it is the Gang, Rap, knife/Gun culture that if not serverly delt with will result in more tragic young deaths and become even more like the American gang culture that they are so desperately trying to emulate.

[/quote]

I couldn't agree more, Lilly, about the specific and sickening nature of the current problems in London and other big UK cities. Every time I hear the words "knife culture" mentioned in the media, though, I get very cross.  It is such a misnomer - how can you put those two words together?  What cultural is there about going around armed with a knife?

Living in my part of London is really unpleasant right now.  It is not just the media blowing it out of all proportions.  The reality does affect people a lot.  Last week it took me ages to get to work and back for two consecutive days because some poor person was knifed to death on the bus route I use (this murder wasn't in the media).  The next day a woman was knifed and died about 20 min's walk from my house.  The following day a boy was knifed to death in the area I work in.  The day after that the two poor French students were murdered (in an area my daughter waits for one of her buses).  The following day yet another boy was killed, this time very near my sons' school.

My sons go out, I can't stop them and I live in total fear.  Just 3 more weeks before we can move to France...

[Frenchie]

Oh I'm so upset...

was talking to my mum over the phone  just a moment ago and trying to explain to her that violence is in all big cities , in any country, she still thinks things are much worse in London ..

 I can't help thinking this  panick is caused mainly by the media..

I got really [:@][6] when she added " c'est un drôle de pays quand même "  [6]

 

[Clair]

I used to get the same kind of reaction from my relatives in France at the time of the IRA bombings...

Every report of a bomb was another reason why I should returned to France to be safe.

[Frenchie]

Oh right.. Just not my mum then.. She s worried cos she knows I regularly go to the UK and now grand son is going too........

 

[Judith]

[quote user="Clair"]I used to get the same kind of reaction from my relatives in France at the time of the IRA bombings...

Every report of a bomb was another reason why I should returned to France to be safe.

[/quote]

Clair

Indeed, yes. The IRA days were before I came into London, but my sister was in and out of town quite a lot and I said wasn't she frightened.  Of course, she said, but if you stop you let them win.  There are days when I get very annoyed at the chaos caused by the security alerts etc which disrupt my daily life, but life has to go on.  Though I am glad I'm finally on the move to France, after 20 years here its definitely not the city I moved into, and I shall be glad to retire and get away from it now.

[trees 2]

[quote user="DZ"][quote user="Lilly"]

I am for my sins a Londoner and I have a thought that the point is being missed  a little, it is the type of crime that is indicative of a sick culteral shift in London and probably a few other big cities in the UK, it appears to me that it is the Gang, Rap, knife/Gun culture that if not serverly delt with will result in more tragic young deaths and become even more like the American gang culture that they are so desperately trying to emulate.

[/quote]

I couldn't agree more, Lilly, about the specific and sickening nature of the current problems in London and other big UK cities. Every time I hear the words "knife culture" mentioned in the media, though, I get very cross.  It is such a misnomer - how can you put those two words together?  What cultural is there about going around armed with a knife?

Living in my part of London is really unpleasant right now.  It is not just the media blowing it out of all proportions.  The reality does affect people a lot.  Last week it took me ages to get to work and back for two consecutive days because some poor person was knifed to death on the bus route I use (this murder wasn't in the media).  The next day a woman was knifed and died about 20 min's walk from my house.  The following day a boy was knifed to death in the area I work in.  The day after that the two poor French students were murdered (in an area my daughter waits for one of her buses).  The following day yet another boy was killed, this time very near my sons' school.

My sons go out, I can't stop them and I live in total fear.  Just 3 more weeks before we can move to France...

[/quote]

And this morning, we have Labour minister Tony McNulty, stating that carrying a knife is in the collective DNA of Britains teenagers.

What hope have we when a supposedly responsible person gives out excuses like that?

FOURTEEN knifings this last weekend.[:'(]

[YCCMB]

[quote user="DZ"]

.  The next day a woman was knifed and died about 20 min's walk from my house. My sons go out, I can't stop them and I live in total fear.  Just 3 more weeks before we can move to France...

[/quote]

Bellenden Road, Peckham? Was that the one? It's about 2 minutes walk from my son's flat. I was talking to him about it. "Mum" he said "It's a life choice people make early on. If you're not part of it from early on, it won't happen to you"

I am not saying he's right, but I think he has a point. There's no point living in fear of something happening to you that almost certainly won't. He, too, lives among it day in, day out. He's been to residents' meetings in the area and seen and heard the outrage, grief and desperation of people who don't want it to continue. It's very, very sad, but it's a minority thing, still.

[cooperlola]

In the late 60s/early 70s when I was in my teens, I lived in Shoreham by Sea in Sussex.  Those were the worst days of the skinhead culture and we hairies had to be very wary of them.  One of my classmates was knifed to death then.  When I was very young I came very close to being molested by a creepy guy who was known to my parents (thus I trusted him when I shouldn't have).  I lived in the countryside then and went to a little village school.  Plus ca change....

You can't escape life, you have to adapt to it.  Wrapping yourself and your children in cotton wool is not the answer (although I'm not sure what is). And make no mistake, this goes on in France just as much as it does in Britain.  Certain sections of the media would make you believe this is a modern thing and confined to Britain's inner cities but it certainly is not. 

[Cerise]

Sensible post cooperlola.  A young man was knifed to death in Figeac (Aveyron) the other Saturday when he asked another lad for a light.  The local papers made little of it, didn't see announced nationally at all.  So it happens here too - and fairly often - but English acquaintances living here refuse to believe it.  The media makes sure they can't ignore it in UK

It worries me a little that people are lulled into a sense of false security in respect of their children here.  The drugs culture locally is appalling.  Our adjoint for jeunesse on our local council has many meetings regarding the ever increasing problem and a local English 19 year old who has been brought up in both cultures tells me she thinks it is far worse here than in Cambridge.  However same English acquaintances persist in thinking their adolescents are so much 'safer' here.   I myself wouldn't think a youngster of mine was safe at some the rural raves that happen in houes full of booze and unlocked gun cabinets either.

I'm not a panicky person and I don't think anywhere in UK or France is so very unsafe.  However, I do think parents should be vigilant in both countries and not assume either that all is well or that all is appalling.

[breizh]

Agreed Cerise and Cooperlola. My BiL is in the Paris Police, places like Epernay are totally unpoliced because the criminals have automatic weapons, and use the police for target practice from the high-rises. The drugs and alcohol abuse in rural areas is totally out of control, presumably because the kids have got nothing else to do. I live in deepest, darkest France, break ins are a fact of life, we've been targeted 4 times in a year, the neighbouring farmer 6 times (and he has several guns and cheins de chasse). Somehow the Brits never see these problems, and the french media only report it superfically. However I will be very sad to leave when my company moves me again.

 

[cooperlola]

Too true, Breizh.  Boredom these days amongst the young seems to me often to be "cured" by getting into the drug culture.  I think it's a false premise to believe that moving your children into the most remote and apparently calm and crime-free parts of France is the solution.  You have to be sure that they really are country kids and will enjoy what you do - ie peace and quiet and the chance to enjoy the countryside and all it has to offer.  To some children this is just their idea of hell!  I loved the countryside when I was young because I rode, cycled and walked - but this isn't what all children (especially teenagers who want to have fun with their friends) want out of life.

On the surface, the place where I now live is perfect and appears crime free but I know from my French friends with teenage children that the drug culture is rife here and a real problem for both teachers and parents.  The same was true in rural Britain where I lived before. But looking around it doesn't surprise me at all - there is so little for them to do unless they are able to get into the city where the life really is.

[breizh]

I must admit I am glad we haven't got children. Nothing to do round here for them, not even a street corner to hang around on! More often than not, no power for me Wii. Now if they did one that ran on cow poo..........

[Val_2]

My son lives and studies in the centre of Brest and every week there is a murder or two but they are only mentioned in the papers, never sensationalised like the british media unless they are particularly nasty as in the case of Clarisse and Erwan two years ago who werer murdered in their flat by someone not yet caught and remembered every year by the people of the quarter they lived in. I worry about him there as he has been accosted several times on the streets in broad daylight and so have most of his male peers but that is life and to be honest I would rather he was there than in the UK currently. Did you see in the british press about the ten year old pulling a flick knife on a nine year old girl because she would not hand over her games console? The fault lies within the system there whereby the punishment is not punishment enough and parents are not bought to book either like they are here for those kids of 18 and under. No one should ever consider french cities and towns are safer,they have just the same social problems but the punishments are far harsher.

[Clarkkent]

[quote user="Val_2"] Did you see in the british press about the ten year old pulling a flick knife on a nine year old girl because she would not hand over her games console? [/quote]

No, tell me more. Are you sure that this isn't just an urban myth being magnified by the gutter press to suit its sales income?

Seriously, I would not move from Britain to France purely on the basis of some perception of greater security. Anything that happens in Britain also happens in France, and in similar circumstances, too. There are large areas of French cities that are the province of disadvantaged, poorly educated and angry young people. But, this is in the cities and people fleeing to France don't move to cities but to the peaceful, tranquil, safe countryside. On the edge of my French village lives a man who uses his shotgun against anything that moves on his land. There is talk among the villagers that he catches feral cats, ties them to a wall and uses them for target practice. In my local post office was a poster showing photos of sixteen children who had disappeared. And around Agen, posters can still sometimes be seen asking for information about the whereabouts of Marion, who disappeared about 10 years ago.

As for knife crime in Britain, it appears to be influenced by subculture. No amount of punishment - or threat of punishment - will affect its incidence, that will only be done through education (in the broadest sense).

[Marym2]

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1032729/Girl-9-robbed-knifepoint-10-year-old-boy-trying-steal-games-console.html

However, I see similiar things all the time, a little while ago we had a stabbing outside my house, when I spoke to the police on whats happening he just told me ' not much just a stabbing but the fellow who was stabbed ran down the street and so we have to follow the trail of blood to find him' and this was matter of factly, They see it as an everyday occurance..Most old people around here also live in fear as well as parents, not many like to leave their houses and a lot would move if possible, but as many people say 'where is Safe'

[Lilly]

I would like to clear something, I for one did not flee the UK in a disalusioned state of rose tinted glasses of France being safer, I give myself a little more credit of intelligence than that. I have lived in many places and very varied ones from the centre of London to remote islands and several cities in between so I have a broad education to the life that can be led in such places for the youth, middle aged and elderly. We lived in a quiet well to do village just outside Cambridge, local villagers not particularly friendly in fact we did'nt socialise or really know anyone in 10 years but that is because we were working and I guess the same for others in the village, but we did have a drug dealer next door and all the perifery that goes with that so that was a pleasant experiance.

On the island we lived on there were many a strange character,one who took a shot gun to his baby twins and another local who just like to shoot quite literally at Johovahs or any one else for that matter and the list of other incidents too long and scarey.

Things learnt in all my travels 1) you never escape the rat race just the same rat different race track

                                             2) no where is a safe place you just have to live your life as you want to live it and just bear in mind that there are always bad people and fate always plays a bad card at some time.

I have 2 teenage sons that have now had their teenage years in France and whilst they have grown up in a more sheltered environment  have enjoyed some of the more simple things in life and don't crave a binging night out and a scrap with their mates and they don't find the thought of hanging round the shopping mall  in the slightest bit interesting  but they do meet up with their mates to do what NORMAL decent teenages do with girl friends, mates and neighbours  and with repect for the afore mentioned.

We have had a robbery recently and I have in my life experianced more than my fair share of crime/violence whatever and am in no allusion to the fact that crime sadly happens everywhere, the truth is however for US we are in a better place here ( not a grande ville, decent neigbours and a crime rate bearable)to spend a certain part of our childrens upbringing with better examples for their life and if we can  give them that respite before they take on the world then I'm happy with that . We don't need the sick mentality of some fractions of the UK ( or for that matter the so called knife / gun cultures of the world!) to give our family young and old a balanced view of life because what is going on there is not normal behavior at all don't kid yourselves that this is what life is about and  except it as what has become the norm  and put it down to just media hype as one day you may find it is too abnormal for you too.