Independant bi-lingual lawyer or not - that is the question?

[sueinbushey]

We will hopefully be purchasing a old traditional house in rural France later this year - our budget will be around 290 000 euros and it will be our main residence.

The question is, and we have heard much different advice, should we instruct an independant lawyer to look after our interests or can we leave the process in the hands of the Notaire. Any views or advise will be grately appreciated.

If we go down the lawyer path, should we instruct a local lawyer to where we will be buying or should we go for one of the many advertised law firms in the UK.

Any thoughts?

[Iceni]

We employed a chocolate teapot (sorry UK Solicitors who were supposed to be specialsts in the purchase of French property). On the day of the purchase I sat in the notaires office on my mobile phone getting the correct paperwork faxed over as they had 'forgotten'. To be honest, save yourself well over £400 and do it yourself. It is not difficult and there are enough on here who are willing to help. They did not even manage the main thing they were asked to do - translate the contracts.

This firm advertise in LF.

[Porth]

I am afraid and this despite being a lawyer of many years standing that I agree.  However even in the UK we have good bad and indifferent lawyers.  You pay your money and take your chance.  However in the UK if a Solicitor who is 'on the roll' does not do a good job then there are lots (and yes I know defensive measures at times) opportunities to take the firm to their professional body.

Question for you in that you are spending circa £200K on a house. What would you do in the UK? would you check everything question everything do not take anything that anyone says at first value.  In essence be on your guard for the test is wherever let the buyer beware.

I personally (and please do not sue me) is that I would do lots of legwork locally talk to people talk to the notaire talk to the bar owner whatever for if you deal with a Lawyer in the UK thats all its is someone that is remote from the scene.

 

If you really do need a good lawyer in the UK then those with the absolute greatest of respect that advertise in various publications may not be the type of firm that you need to deal with.

 

I have some at the tip of my tongue but I am not allowed to let you have the information.  However as in everything good advice is not cheap and sometimes even if expensive it is no good.

 

rdgs

[Mpprh]

Hi

nothing to do with your question (!) but what is the name of the country club in the woods between Harrow Weald and Bushey. I spent many happy hours there drinking too much many years ago.

And what is the name of the restaurant on the crossroads ?

Just that our brains are getting soggy 30 years later !

And just to show we are not getting totally ga ga : have enjoyed many Sunday lunches at The Case is Altered, Olde Redding.

 

Peter

 

[Ron Avery]

The French Notaire is a position of high standing in the community, he/she works for both seller and buyer but is equally independent of both.  You will be wasting time and money appointing your own lawyer, that is not how it works in France.  Notaires are duty bound to see that the transaction is carried out in an "honourable" way and is fair to both parties.  They are however not responsible for commissioning surveys though they will ensure that all those required by law have been carried out.

Do not be put off by the merde you see on UK TV programmes and the guff promoted by UK based lawyers, without a bent lawyer, crooked evil French seller, a runaway builder and an idiot English buyer they would not have a programme.  Do as  Porth says and imagine a UK situation, but remember that the Notaire acts for both parties.  If you want an English translation of the compris ask for one, all good French Notaires will arrange for one, it is not in their interests for you not to understand what you are signing.

[Catalpa]

Is your French good enough to accurately translate a legal document? Are you well versed in whether you want to buy en tontine (becoming less popular) or are you going to sort out a 'community marriage' regime? And if the latter, should you do that before you purchase the property? Are you confident you'll be able to decide on what clause suspensives you might want to put into the contract? Then there are boundaries, who owns any trees on the boundaries, is there anyone else with rights to your land? to cross it, harvest the fruit, chop down the trees...

Yes, the notaire is independent - but won't necessarily answer any questions you don't ask. Neither will a UK-based lawyer but at least you'll be communicating in the same language. At the very least (if you don't speak French fluently) get the contract translated professionally. As Ron suggested above.

If you want to use a UK-solicitor - and I *would* for a purchase of £200K - interview several of them - by phone if necessary. Decide what you want to know, on what you'll want their advice. Get a list of what they believe their responsibilities are. How did they acquire their French property expertise? Buying their own maison secondaire shouldn't be considered sufficient! How many house purchase contracts have they worked on? Over how many years? Agree response times: if you send them the contract, you want a response to your questions within... a week? 2 weeks? All your queries to be responded to within... whatever. How are you going to communciate? Phone? Email. How much are they going to charge you for this service? If you aren't comfortable with someone on the phone, don't use them.

Solicitors who advertise in the French magazines *should* be your first port of call. How do you find someone otherwise? - word of mouth ideally so maybe people who used a UK solicitor would PM you recommendations. If someone has a particular skill or expertise, they advertise it to the relevant market - I can't see how that makes them suspect.

[Evianers]

Peter

Could it be Moor Park???? OH went to Merchant Taylors and seem to remember it was nearby.

The Case is Altered - struth! Spent many a summer evening there too - lived just up the road. But we haven't lived in UK for more than 30 years so don't really miss it.

[WJT]

A Uk Solicitor so called specialist in purchasing french property as well as advising on Inheritance matters was a COMPLETE waste of money for us. They are one of the ones advertising in the French magazines. However, I don't think they have ever advertised in Living France. If you do decide to use a UK firm, they will not get involved with boundaries and searches. This is something you or your agent should check with the Marie about. Good luck.

[Nickd]

Without a doubt, if you are not fully conversant all the ins & outs of buying French property, as we were not - I would recommend getting good bilingual assistance.

Save yourself £400?.. We used an independent French solicitor last year who is based in the UK and she saved us thousands of £s by spotting that our house as not equipped with a legal fosse septique. She arranged the extraction of compensation from our vendors.

Okay, you could well argue that we should have spotted this ourselves, but we didn't. With limited French and no expertise in the whole business we were able to sign for the house confident that someone who actually understood the process had checked our contract and all was well.

Yes of course there are a lot of people out there offering services that you should be dubious of, but if you can get a good recommendation I do suggest you take somebody on. If you'd like the detail of our solicitor, do send me a PM.

Nick

[Mpprh]

Hi

just to contribute to the original question.

Getting a UK lawyer to act in respect of a French property purchase seems to me to be a bit like using a plumber to advise on brain surgery. And apologies to any plumbers out there !

You can use your own notaire (no extra cost : the fees are shared) and it seems to me the best solution is to engage an English speaking notaire to act for you.

We've bought and sold a few properties under this system ( 6+) and not had a problem.

Peter

 

[Fi]

Hi, in response to your original question; I would wholeheartedly recommend that you use a lawyer for your purchase particularly as you are spending a substantial amount of money.  We briefly considered not using any UK legal assistance and even though I speak fluent french decided that the money would in the long run be well spent and I have to say that our lawyer (who is french and employed by an english firm) was superb, not only did he assist with our purchase but also assisted with our french bank account and with our french mortgage (after an appalling experience with a UK "french mortgage specialist".   I would be more than happy to recommend our lawyer and if you would like more details please email me directly.

[Fontremy]

We used a UK lawyer who was very good - only deals with French property transactions and is fluent. They picked up an important inheritance issue which the notaire hadn't dealt with. Some friends of ours recently bought a house with permission for a swimming pool only to find it was in a non-construction zone. A UK lawyer could have picked it up but in any event far easier to have come back against a UK lawyer than the French Notaire. Ican recommend them if you like.

FR

[Viv]

I would definitely use an English speaking lawyer simply because I would use one in the UK.  Too many ( including myself) have taken everything at face value in the past simply because we are eager not to upset the locals/ put a foot wrong/ do as in Rome etc.

This is a lot of money and probably the most important purchase of your life , in an [probable] alien system - GET ALL THE HELP YOU CAN!!!! I think there is a proverb that fits this scenario but I'm darned if I can think of it!

[Quillan]

Some things in this world never cease to amaze me, why on earth use a UK lawyer. If you really wanted a second opinion then use your own notaire. The fees for the house sale in France for the notaire are fixed so if you use two you still pay the same, the fee is split 50/50.

But of course a notaire won’t do a search for buildings, roads etc it’s down to you. How do you do it, just copy the French, go see the local mayor, visit the local DDE office and ask your new neighbours (as somebody else said). Between them they should know exactly what’s going on.

If you need a survey get one done by a French guy, you should be able to find out how to get one by searching through the forum. I remember there is an official website where you can locate the nearest and it’s in this forum somewhere (search is at the top right of the forum main screen). English surveyors are not qualified to ‘survey’ in France unless they have taken their French exams. Houses are built quite differently from the UK especially new ones (how many houses have built in earthquake protection in the UK) and UK trained surveyors are not in general taught these differences. A UK based solicitor will not be able to do all these things.

I can’t believe that somebody said that their ‘solicitor’ helped them open a French bank account, I wonder how much they charged for that, nothing is for free with solicitors.  To open a bank account you can do it using your UK address. You can open a bank account with Britline to do the purchase transaction then close it after you have moved in (they do overnight deposits so you can make a bit of money before you actually pay the notaire – that’s what we did). To open a more local bank account you will then require a copy of your Britline statement, a letter from your mayor (proof of residency), a utility bill and your passport. It took me 30 minutes to open my one locally. Worried about your lack of French when dealing with a bank then just walk in to all your local banks and ask (in English) if anyone speaks English. I went round all my banks and ‘interviewed’ English speaking staff to make sure they were OK then opened my bank account with the one I felt the most at ease  with, it’s very easy really.

In inheritance law in France is very simple in that it’s basic. I won’t go through it here but you can search the forum and if you are still unclear just ask but as I said there is loads of stuff here on the subject.

If your house has a fosse (you should ask the agent) then ask to have it checked and get a certificate. I believe that it’s the law now to have a certificate but it’s slow catching on. Tell them you require this to be done or else you won’t proceed with the purchase, that normally gees them up a bit. If they say no then organise it yourself, just look through the French  Yellow Pages.

If you get anything in French that you don’t understand get a translator. We use a bi-lingual guy who charges 20€ per hour and he has saved us a fortune over the years. Much, much, cheaper than any UK solicitor plus you can scan documents and send them to him then drop him a cheque in the post.

Don’t forget to demand that all your documentation in French comes with a signed copy in English. They all (notaires and agents) do this so it’s no big problem.

Now to finish I am going to give you a bit of totally free and invaluable advice, use this website http://www.pagesjaunes.fr/pj.cgi? It’s the French version of Yellow pages and guess what, you can use it in English, just click on the UK flag at the top right corner. From here you can find all the names, address’s, phone numbers and even websites of all the people that can help you here in France.

Good luck with your house purchase and I really hope you enjoy your new life here in France.

[Viv]

I agree with Quillan and this is good advice if you have the time, language skills and are on hand to obtain all the information that you need. In my limited experience you cannot count on the Notaire to look after your interests as a solictor would. I don't think he/ she nees to be UK based but if you cannt understand legal jargon in French the you need it in English.

[Quillan]

Les get this absolutly clear becuase I see peple at times get a little confused.

A Notaire is NOT a solicitor, he is employed by the government to ensure that the documentation for the sale meets French Civil Law requirments and as such is impartial. He is also a tax colector, ensuring that any tax that is due on the sale of the property is paid. He also makes sure there is no mortgage outstanding on the property when it is sold. Thats about all he does (he deals with tontines [sorry about the spelling] as well), no search's etc, etc.

[Jc]

As I have said in the past,we used a French speaking English lawyer to read all the documents(not translate) and warn us if there was anything he was not happy with.He also assisted with the transfer of the funds and arranged Power of  Attorney so we did not have to be there to sign the final contract.We went over a few weeks later with the final 5% and collected the keys.This was all done for a very competitive fee.

[Mustang sally]

I can recomend Jonathon Cavender of Harris & Harris E mail [email protected] We come from somerset & have used this firm on several occasions .They have an office in the Dordorgne this is where Jonathon practises from. His partners still practise in Somerset & are a well respected firm of solicitors Jonathon liased with our French notaire on points that we couldn't understand. Well worth a call an ok fella.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE.

[Quillan]

I'm not going to harp on any more but I have just read the last few posts and wondered.....

JC - I am I right, you never actually got a English translation of your contracts. The guy just read it and told you about anything odd! Did he mention for instance that your wife/husband or even your children are obligied to carry on with the purchase if, god forbid, one or both of you were killed. That was in my translation which is pretty standard, I was a bit shocked to see especially if anything did happen, buying your new home would probably be the last thing on your mind.

Quackers - Likewise did you get a translation of your documents? Was it you lack of French perhaps that stoped you from understanding so bits of the contract?

If the answer was yes for both of you do you think a proper English translation would have helped?

[Jc]

No-we never got a translation;we discussed the contract over the phoneand he told us all the clauses were standard except one he had not seen before concerning the keeping of certain animals but it did not affect us.

[Will]

I agree with Quillan that in an ideal world it should not be necessary to use a solicitor for French house transactions.

However, I do understand why many people feel it is worth it for peace of mind, particularly if unfamiliar with how the French system works and if you don't have 100% confidence in the notaire or agent. I would say go with your gut feeling, then if you feel you need reassurance try and find a suitably-qualified lawyer on the basis of recommendation. Don't just go with what somebody says on a web site forum though - so-called 'professionals' have been known to pose as clients here in order to post their own glowing testimonials about themselves.

[Anton Redman]

The French system of property transfer is not adversarial. The notaire expects you to have walked the ground and be sure what you are buying. The problem is not translating the words it is understanding the legal implications of what is written.

 

Some years ago I watched a UK qualified solicitor accept a change in contract which included the words the business is sold ‘As Is’ .  I gently pointed out that to the best of my knowledge and belief ‘As Is’ meant ‘Without  Warranty or Guarantee or F all squared in US legalspeak’  and given I had spent the last four days and nights negotiating the warranties and guarantees I had rather they did not undo the last week’s work.

 

I have only bought houses twice in France. On both occasions I have been asked by the notaire if I wanted another notaire. On both occasions I replied that they worked for the truth of the transaction. Both times I was treated much more fairly than I would have been under any other legal system I have dealt with  

[Mustang sally]

In answer to Quillans post. We trust Jonathons advice without question & found it easier to speak with him & although he didn't need to do anything to involved we felt he took alot of pressure off us having to deal with any issues we may of had. The notaire we had spoke very little english & as we were not conversant with French law using Jonathon made our purchase a doddle! So I would say each to they're own when choosing either Notaire or English lawyer just so long as you are confident with whoever you choose.