Drug dealers

[5-element]

Coops - [:P][:P][:P]

[idun]

Heroin was legal until the first quarter of the 20th century at least and could be bought at Harrods amoungst other places.

I believe in legalising drugs and brothels.

I realise the implications of people sueing, all that needs putting on the packets is you take this at your own risk, it can severly harm and kill you, your choice.

However, I would rather the money be in the state coffers than with drug barons.

[Iceni]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Why oh why do we get this comparison with fags and booze every time there is a discussion about pot, heroin, cocaine and other drugs.

 [/quote]

Perhaps because they are drugs and many people are addicted?

John

[woolybanana]

No, reference to these is just a way of turning the discussion away from heroin, cocaine and pot;

[Gluestick]

[quote user="idun"]

I realise the implications of people sueing, all that needs putting on the packets is you take this at your own risk, it can severly harm and kill you, your choice.[/quote]

Wouldn't work in point of fact. Manufacturers cannot cover themselves that way against Product Liability: and retailers cannot contract out of their liability in such fashion. And the contract of course is struck between the consumer and the person they purchases from.

Unfair Contract terms Act 1977. Oodles of case law on this one: and it links, in practice to the new Sale of Goods Act.

Everyone KNOWS smoking is bad for the smoker and carries significant health risks: hasn't stopped, finally, smokers and their widows, widowers etc suing the big tobacco manufacturers and winning.

Tobacco Litigation:

[Théière]

[quote user="woolybanana"]No, reference to these is just a way of turning the discussion away from heroin, cocaine and pot;[/quote]

Entirely based on your point of view, some people are addicted to shopping others alcohol, cigarettes and others drugs. These people are just weak willed so we should help them with their addiction.

[Braco]

Gluestick

You make some interesting points. I have a little knowledge and experience of the M25 and M11. Last year 28,567 people were killed or seriously injured in UK traffic accidents (Department for Transport statistics, based on casualties in accidents reported to police), the vast majority are speed related even though governments prefer to highlight drink drive. It is legal to purchase and use a car that is capable of exceeding the maximum speed limit, and we have numerous TV programmes extolling the fun of speed.

Exactly how many drug crazed fairy watchers jumped out of windows during the same period?

Your comments about dealing with drug suppliers while understandable are pointless. We need to tackle the demand side of the equation.

[NickP]

OK Q and Braco, you have convinced me that the way forward is to legalise all drugs. So I hope you will not complain when I sell the legal cocaine /heroin etc. to your children and grandchildren. And that  you wont complain when the medical staff at the local hospital say that they can't help them. Enjoy the future; and I hope you don't suffer as lots of parents and grandparents do now due to the scum that peddle this rubbish .  Of course in the future when I sell drugs I wont be scum as selling drugs will be legal  

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Braco"] the vast majority are speed related [/quote]

Really?

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2006/contributory.pdf

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/13/1362.asp

An article I read recently in a French magazine suggested the same sorts of trends over here too.

Sorry to continue this off topic strand but I could not let that one go by unchallenged.  The biggest cause of RTAs (including the one I was on the rough end of) is cr*p driving - no surprise there then!

[Gluestick]

I could inundate you with stats, Braco.

Try this: See here:

This Home Office document provides a useful reference source.

See here:

2/3rds of criminals arrested by the Met, test positive for amongst other drugs, heroin and cocaine.

Agree totally about the demand side: re-education of kids is of primary importance: and their parents in far too many cases!

We also urgently need to savagely ramp-up government funded treatment facilities.

However, we also need to savagely ramp up mental health treatment facilities: for example, there are too few properly qualified CBT Practitioners.

Mis-Oriented  mental attitudes and internalised confusion is invariably the trigger which motivates the young to seek chemical release.

Trouble is, this all costs money: and government funding is thin on the ground right now!

I became more concerned with this problem and its realities when my niece became so very ill. Gorgeous lass; could be a very successful model, singer, dancer whatever she really wanted. Now just an empty deeply troubled shell, riven with dreadful problems.

I had earlier researched the subject and reached certain conclusions in my social research and writing: her illness was the shock which galvanised me to look further.

[woolybanana]

[quote user="NickP"]

OK Q and Braco, you have convinced me that the way forward is to legalise all drugs. So I hope you will not complain when I sell the legal cocaine /heroin etc. to your children and grandchildren. And that  you wont complain when the medical staff at the local hospital say that they can't help them. Enjoy the future; and I hope you don't suffer as lots of parents and grandparents do now due to the scum that peddle this rubbish .  Of course in the future when I sell drugs I wont be scum as selling drugs will be legal  

[/quote]

String the bu**ers up I say and have done with it.

I have taken someone through the withdrawal from heroin and can see no solution without taking out the significant dealers at the end of a rope!

[Gluestick]

[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="Braco"] the vast majority are speed related [/quote]

Really?

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2006/contributory.pdf

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/13/1362.asp

An article I read recently in a French magazine suggested the same sorts of trends over here too.

Sorry to continue this off topic strand but I could not let that one go by unchallenged.

[/quote]

I do wish I could point dear old John Gott at him, JE!

Totally off topic: I was competing at Lyddon circuit in Kent, same race (Modsports) when John so sadly suffered his fatal coronary.

Lovely man.

[:(]

[Théière]

[quote user="Gluestick"]
Agree totally about the demand side: re-education of kids is of primary importance: and their parents in far too many cases!

[/quote]

And Grandparents as they were the generation who "experimented" with drugs the most. That and rock music, they should have stayed closer to church orientated activities (Frank Zappa)

[Braco]

cooperloa

There are a number of studies that we can pick to prove a point. You may like to read http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme5/fatalroadcrashreporting/doc/rswp11.doc

A number of fatalities are not correctly or uniformly recorded.

Over a ten year period 1985 to 1995 I attended about 1000 RTA's which included about 100 fatalities. During this period I never came across a case where low speed was contributing factor.

[Quillan]

[quote user="NickP"]

OK Q and Braco, you have convinced me that the way forward is to legalise all drugs. So I hope you will not complain when I sell the legal cocaine /heroin etc. to your children and grandchildren. And that  you wont complain when the medical staff at the local hospital say that they can't help them. Enjoy the future; and I hope you don't suffer as lots of parents and grandparents do now due to the scum that peddle this rubbish .  Of course in the future when I sell drugs I wont be scum as selling drugs will be legal  

[/quote]

Yes I would complain and the reason is that of course it would, like in other countries where some drugs are legalised, be illegal to do this. Yes I would expect people who are ill because of the drugs they have taken to be treated in hospital if the drugs were legal.

When I made that comment, and I know you understood exactly what I meant, it was because drugs are illegal in France and the UK and as they are then much harsher penalties should be put in place. I think it should be made simple in determining the level of punishment, under 5 grams you are user (seems to be the standard for countries where drugs are legal), over 5 grams your a dealer/trafficker. The penalty for dealing and/or trafficking should be 25 years to life although personally I favor the policy of countries like Malaysia, mandatory death penalty. As for those overdosing, well you would be doing everyone a favor if you denied them medical treatment and let them die, one less person for the drug barons to make money out of. If people know the rules then its up to them. Once you have allowed the odd pop star and actor die by withdrawing medical help kids will soon get the idea.

What has to stop is this pussy footing around by governments if they really want to tackle this problem. You either legalise drugs or go extra hard on dealers and users. Which ever way you do go I agree with Wooly, education must play a strategic role.

[Gluestick]

Interesting thoughts, T.

As someone who grew to sort of maturity in the 1960s, a few years back a number of chums of the day held a get together: we had all played in a group.

We, naturally, discussed drugs and "Free Love": and reached the conclusion that most of us then were far too busy getting on with building our lives and careers.

Thus drugs and free love had passed us by.

And we knew no one who "Did" drugs.

No: we weren't all fuddy duddy goody goodies either. In fact our host for the reunion was a most interesting chap: an old friend from youth club and social activities of the time and was a very talented graphic designer: and thereby hangs a tale.................

One of his great chums at work was a group of four, who used to meet up in the pub and plot and plan their own agency: they were mainly engaged in advertising work. Their plans were well advanced. They were going to show their bosses how to do this properly!

Ah! The arrogance and self-assurance of youth.

Almost at giving in notice time, one of the group, a very talented artist announced that the band he played in at weekends was going off on the road.

"Don't worry guys: it's all "****'s" idea and it won't last six months. I'll be back and then away we go.

Unfortunately for the embryo agency, Charlie Watts never ever did come back from drumming for the Rolling Stones!

[:D]

[Théière]

[quote user="Braco"]cooperloa There are a number of studies that we can pick to prove a point. You may like to read http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme5/fatalroadcrashreporting/doc/rswp11.doc A number of fatalities are not correctly or uniformly recorded. Over a ten year period 1985 to 1995 I attended about 1000 RTA's which included about 100 fatalities. During this period I never came across a case where low speed was contributing factor.[/quote]

In all the RTA's I have been involved in the cause was always the same......Lack of downforce [:D] and occasionally a bad pace note from the navigator but we never blamed them, they had to put up with a lot.

[Gluestick]

Funny that, T.............

In 1966 Sir John Whitmore gave a lecture about his experiences as a test driver with the late Jack Fairman, for Ford Advanced Vehicles at Slough (i.e. Lola Cars by another name for a short while) on the GT40 project.

He recounted how he and Jack were going over a small humpback bridge - at Whitmore's usual pace! - and the car sort of took off!

As it was rotating in the air, he and Fairman exchanged comments like "Whoops! Here we go!"

The aerodynamics needed a tad of re-design....................

[:D]

[Théière]

I experienced something similar in Cooper  (copying the Italian job) hydroelastic could never put up with a landing like that [:-))]

[Gluestick]

Strange that.........

As a matter of course, we converted any hydrolastic S to dry rubber suspenders when building up race, rallycross and rally cars.

However, all earlier Cooper S works competition cars from Abingdon were hydrolastic 'cos of homologation rules, once the fluid suspension was standard factory kit.

I drove Timo Makinan's 1967 Monte car: and that was hydrolastic; as was my first 1275 S road car.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Braco"]cooperloa

During this period I never came across a case where low speed was contributing factor.[/quote]Perhaps not, but I bet you that a load of the people in that DoT report whose accident was caused by poor driving skills (pretty much the biggest contributing factor - and it was the police who reported these accident stats, as you'll see when you read it) similarly tell everybody how driving fast causes accidents, while they turn their heads to chat to their passengers or control their kids, or are listening to the news or some programme on the radio instead of concentrating 100% on the road.

I've been in three accidents - one in which my boss (in the passenger seat) was sounding off about something whilst I was parking and I reversed into somebody because I lost concentration; another caused by a woman on her mobile phone, and the third caused by a lorry driver who pulled out round a parked car and failed to look in his mirror and punted another car  into my path as I was coming the other way.  All about incomepetent driving (on my part in one case - mea culpa - but I was driving at a snail's pace).  I agree (as the report confirms and so does my limited experience) that faster driving causes worse accidents than if one is driving slowly but should I really have been doing 60kph not 90 on a route nationale? 

 I also find the fact that now there are a lot more speed traps and cameras about than there used to be that I spend a lot of time checking the speedo' which I used - in the old days - to spend looking at the road and in my mirror when I first qualified.  I don't suggest we do away with them, but I do think fining people for speeding is a nice quick way to make cash, whereas doing them for incompetence is more complicated.  I'd retest everybody every 10 years myself (I only say that of course because I recently had a few driving lessons to get my fitness (physical) to drive confirmed and the instructor said I could pass a test tomorrow[:D].)

Sorry, again, nothing to do with drugs at all!  Cars, fags, booze, kitchen knives, you name it - we can twist anything to make them sound like lethal weapons which are a danger to society but they all (including drugs of any sort) are the same in the end - their danger level is directly related to the moron who choses to use them (or not.)

[Gluestick]

[quote user="cooperlola"], ......................whereas doing them for incompetence is more complicated. [/quote]

As the bard was wont to quoth, JE, "Aye; there's the rub!"

Excessive sped has been the mantra of government since 1966: when the overall 70 MPH blanket top speed limit  was first introduced.

As a signatory of the petition to government at the time, sponsored by Graham Hill, Sterling Moss, John Gott, Bill Boddy and many others, a core part of which suggested government introduce graded speed limits according to a driver's developed skill, I have watched, listened and read more nonsense concerning RTAs than almost every other subject.

If one bothers to evaluate the complete RTA stats, then one quickly discovers all is not as it seems.

Meanwhile and however, a kid can pass what is described as "A driving test" in the morning and if they can find some fool to insure them, the same day take to a motorway in snow, fog, a blizzard or other adverse conditions in a Ferrari.

Having, naturally, never actually driven on a motorway ever before........

Trouble is, modern cars are far too forgiving: tyres, brakes, steering, suspension: until the tipping point.

Plus, as you say, with all the inbuilt distractions; cell phones, CD players, GPS whatever.

[Braco]

Cooperlola, Gluestick

Very good points. While poor driving skills are a major problem I think that your comment ‘but should I really have been doing 60kph not 90 on a route nationale?’ best encapsulates the problems that we all face. A good driver (I am not questioning your abilities) will adjust their speed to the prevailing conditions and characteristics of the vehicle they are driving. Unfortunately a high number of motorists are clueless at best and use the maximum speed limit as if it’s in place to act as a minimum.

Stand alone speed camera’s are popular and demanded by communities that have a perception of speed dangers. The demand far exceeds the numbers that are installed (usually only following two number fatalities at the site). I am not a fan as they do not address the issues.

Retesting along with higher standards of training and graded speed limits to match developed skills are very good ideas.

[Gluestick]

[quote]A good driver (I am not questioning your abilities) will adjust their

speed to the prevailing conditions and characteristics of the vehicle

they are driving.[/quote]

If you don't mind, Braco, I'm going to take the liberty to edit that statement (Which I agree with) in the cause of completeness.

A good driver will adjust their

speed to the prevailing conditions, to the characteristics of the vehicle

they are driving and their own skill.

In so many cases, people "Drive" vehicles well above their own true level of competence.

Starting to drive, before the first Motorway was opened ( By one year - I'm sad to say![:(]), one needed to quickly learn to coordinate and correlate Speed and Distance, when overtaking, on mainly, three lane roads.  Dual carriageway arterial and de-limited roads were very rare.

Cross-Ply tyres and drum brakes (Which used to fade awesomely if driven enthusiastically), agricultural suspension etc, demanded developed skill if one were to drive fast and safely. Until the introduction of the later Porsche license synchromesh (Bulk Ring), gearchanging both up and down was a process which demanded careful synchronisation of road and engine speed: as examples.

Since brakes were not brilliant, then one learned to use Engine Breaking and the gearbox all the time: which, of course, promoted much greater levels of control into, through and out of corners and "bendy bits".

Now I see girlies (Typically) in their Mini-Coopers, KAs etc, howl up to corners and stop signs or stalled traffic - in the wet - and simply stamp on the brake.

The whole process has been de-skilled: however, due to the hugely competitive and copycat nature of current society, what I term "Me Too Syndrome" rules.

And it is Me Too Syndrome, too often, which predicates driver's road management: or more correctly, lack of same.

[pachapapa]

I coped reasonably well on the M6 and a short piece of M4 in a Beetle Standard....no synchro and cable brakes.