Burka ban passed

[Frenchie]

[:D]................ [;-)]..................... [kiss]

[mint]

[quote user="Bugsy"]
I quite agree Reg.

[IMG]http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/Bugbear2/SummmerFun.jpg[/IMG]

[:P][:D][kiss]




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[/quote]

But, don't forget, Bugs, that, in another life, you were a well-known and highly sought after pyromaniac![geek]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

My argument may be simplistic but I do think it is absolutely necessary to be able to identify a person from his/her face in public spaces.  . For me it is above all a matter of safety.

What if everybody wore a balaclava ?

[/quote]

That is also what I believe especially in these troubled times with terrorists allegedly running around. It will also make the agitators that join at some of these peaceful demonstrations to cause trouble and who hid their faces think again perhaps because even if they do nothing they will still get arrested so they can no longer hide behind anonymity. The police will now know exactly who they are. All the other stuff, and quite rightly so, is of no relevance. In a modern society, when it comes to law, one cap must fit all.

[Bugsy]

[quote user="sweet 17"]

But, don't forget, Bugs, that, in another life, you were a well-known and highly sought after pyromaniac![geek]

[/quote]

just unsubstantiated rumours 'Sweets' they never found the matches.

[Www][kiss]

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[mint]

So...where'd you hidden them?  And the petrol?

[just john]

[quote user="Frenchie"] My argument may be simplistic but I do think it is absolutely necessary to be able to identify a person from his/her face in public spaces.  . For me it is above all a matter of safety.

What if everybody wore a balaclava ? [/quote]

My thoughts exactly[:)]

[IMG]http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh166/classic69_72/darth.jpg[/IMG]

[sunny]

Well, not sure if this is about safety. For example, carnival masks and Santa Claus outfits are exempt from the law, as I understand it.

So, around Christmas do you feel threatened by the people dressed in Santa costumes and masks because you cannot see their face...(they could be potential terrorists too)? I suspect not, because it is familiar and comfortable childhood reminder for most of us. It is the burqa and what baggage YOU associate with it that makes it appear threatening/unsafe.

I cannot understand how people are willing to forsake other people's freedoms/choices just because it makes them personally uncomfortable. I wonder how many of the people here who are in support of the ban have close muslim friends...?

Racial/religious tolerance and assimilation is a two way street. I am surprised to find such little representation of muslims/blacks in France's top echelons - in media, politics and business (except sports) - contrast this to the UK which is so much more diverse. I think if France wants muslims to be more 'French', it needs to show them a multicultural France where the young can see role models of their own ethnicity/religion in the political/public sphere...this would probably be much more effective than such ham-fisted responses

[Frenchie]

I have muslim friends, I am in touch with muslims at work, and we really get on well, I've travelled a lot into muslim countries, so , your argument here is irrelevant.

I agree that all ethnicities should be more represented in the media, this has nothing to do with the burka IMO.

Muslims are no problem to me, fundamentalists are .

 

[powerdesal]

[quote user="sunny"]Well, not sure if this is about safety. For example, carnival masks and Santa Claus outfits are exempt from the law, as I understand it.

So, around Christmas do you feel threatened by the people dressed in Santa costumes and masks because you cannot see their face...(they could be potential terrorists too)? I suspect not, because it is familiar and comfortable childhood reminder for most of us. It is the burqa and what baggage YOU associate with it that makes it appear threatening/unsafe.

I cannot understand how people are willing to forsake other people's freedoms/choices just because it makes them personally uncomfortable. I wonder how many of the people here who are in support of the ban have close muslim friends...?

Racial/religious tolerance and assimilation is a two way street. I am surprised to find such little representation of muslims/blacks in France's top echelons - in media, politics and business (except sports) - contrast this to the UK which is so much more diverse. I think if France wants muslims to be more 'French', it needs to show them a multicultural France where the young can see role models of their own ethnicity/religion in the political/public sphere...this would probably be much more effective than such ham-fisted responses[/quote]

Having lived for far too many years in the Arab World I have Muslim friends, male and female. The females never wore a burkha, only a headscarf - no problem there.

Perhaps you are in favour of positive discrimination to ensure the 'correct' ethnic mix in all 'top echelons' irrespective of ability.

Bye the way, there are not too many non Muslims / whites in charge in your average Muslim country.

[Quillan]

Actually I was reading in the news last week that 'multiculturalism' is not helping people become 'more English' and we are talking 2nd or 3rd generation. What has happened is that the indigenous English population have got over their objections more than the French it would seem. It seems whichever way you go if people don't want to integrate they won't, just look at some Brits in France and Spain, as an example. A Brit can wear a Beret and stick a baguette under his arm in France but that does not mean he is integrated.

[sunny]

[quote user="Frenchie"]

I have muslim friends, I am in touch with muslims at work, and we really get on well, I've travelled a lot into muslim countries, so , your argument here is irrelevant.

[/quote]

I think what I was trying to get at (and I have expressed myself badly), is that when you really mix with another group, you stop seeing their quirks, mannerisms as alien, you just kinda accept it and it becomes background noise.

In my case, when I was young and had less set ideas, I roomed with a white american girl and an american-asian muslim girl in college. I guess the debates we had those days were mostly about feminism and pro-anti abortion rights, not about religion. Both my room-mates were super fun and our muslim roomie could actually drink us all under the table. In her senior year, she took to the headscarf and then the burqa (and totally gave up on alcohol, which was a bummer), no clue why...she just said she felt the urge from within. She had no pressure from her parents who were both doctors, and wore western clothes. Also, her best friend was another muslim girl from the middle east who was *really* hot and had all the guys panting after her! This other girl never covered up, in fact quite the opposite - she wore Parisian fashion with great style (think her parents were very rich). But she always had her brother trailing after her, to make sure the boys didn't get too close:-)

Now, was my roomie subjugated and the western dressed one free...? I really don't know and don't presume to guess. All I know is that when I see a covered woman on the street, I think of Waheeda and the burqa-ed woman just doesn't seem that alien or threatening to me...

So when I hear of women being symbols of this or that and their dress means that they are repressed...I honestly don't know...I think they are just like the rest of us and don't see why they need to be 'educated' or censured or punished.

Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan can keep their dress police to themselves (and frankly, the dress is the least of the problem for women in those countries, methinks)...scary to see intolerance and the dress-police in western Europe.

In my opinion, Sarkozy is not doing this to prevent terrorism or help Muslim women, but to pander to the far right and counter the popularity of Marine le Pen. I guess her base is represented more in this forum than I though...

[just john]

We could go round in circles indefinitely but my feeling is that few on here would vote far right or object to the Burka solely on religious grounds, however there does seem to be a consensus that identification is paramount and next is the lobby against subjugation of women even if it is in their interest against 'their wishes'. The right of the individual to go against the wishes of the majority is rightly questionable.

[Clair]

[quote user="sunny"]... Sarkozy is [...] doing this to [...] to [...] counter the popularity of Marine le Pen. I guess her base is represented more in this forum than I though...[/quote]

In other words, "if you don't agree with me, you must be a far-right supporter".

Cheap shot, which immediately devaluates your argument.

[idun]

Sunny, I  actually believe that your muslim friend who started to wear a burkha was going through a 'crise' like people over eat or get anorexia or simply have mental illness. How can it actually be 'normal' to wear a sack from the top of the head to toe. If it were 'normal' men would do it and they do not.

And a brother following a girl around, that too sickens me, it illustrates all that is bad about 'male/patricarchal' society where men are believed to be unable to control their urges and women are 'whxres'. Then when the most horrific of crimes against women occur and are called 'honour crimes', no honour in such crimes, and I hate them being called such.

You are male, and frankly I don' t think that any man can imagine what a womans lot really is. That is not a complaint about being 'female' it is just a constat.

[Hoddy]

Sunny your post comes over as rather patronising.

I think your remark "really mix with another group" tells us something about you. I spent the majority of my working life among a rich mix which included moslems of many ethnicities from Bosniak to Brumese. The two burqua wearers I mentioned earlier in thsi thread choose to be separate; the rest of that group, which includes other moslems, manage to chat quite easily together.

As a woman with four brothers I would have found it demeaning if one of my brothers had been delegated to follow me round to make sure I behaved myself.

You say that what women are obliged to wear in some societies is the least of their problems. That may be be true but is also a symbol of them.

I do not see how any of the above would make me a supporter of Marine le Pen.

Hoddy

[Tancrède]

[quote user="Hoddy"]Sunny your post comes over as rather patronising.

I think your remark "really mix with another group" tells us something about you.[/quote]But what exactly does Sunny's remark [cue sinister music] 'tell us' about her (or him) ?

Presumably it must be something essentially similar to that conveyed by your own [obviously not patronizing] claim:

[quote user="Hoddy"]I spent the majority of my working life among a rich mix

which included moslems of many ethnicities…[/quote]

[Hoddy]

I was referring to the suggestion that if we 'really mixed with another group' then we would agree with the poster. I was pointing out that this wasn't necessarily the case and that our disagreement didn't automatically make us right-wing. I found the suggestion that it did, patronising.

Hoddy