Burka ban passed

[Hoddy]

Did you read that Sarah Palin had enquired if the current adventure in Libya was a "squirmish" ?

Hoddy

[Quillan]

Wonder what the Muslims thought when the Crusades turned up? I wonder what the modern ones thought when Blair and Bush said they were going on a crusade to sort out the terrorists (who were obviously Muslims given the events of the time when they said this, surprised they didn't wear a white tabard with a big red cross on it)? I wonder what their thoughts are on the secret Sykes Picot agreement? I think countries like France and the UK need to think about their past treatment of Muslims before people start 'banging their war drums'.

Isn't it strange that every religion preaches 'brotherly love' yet we don't seem to know what that means. I believe in secular states, I am happy to live in one. I don't believe it is right to call this a Burka ban when it is not a direct ban specifically aimed at the Burka although I do believe in a ban on covering your face regardless of anything religious or whatever. The next ban I would like to see is a ban on religion, I think its already caused an horrendous number of deaths over the centuries and enough is enough.

[idun]

Years ago I read one of those 'best seller' type things by James Mitchener, 'Space'? and it ended with a US President who would take the states back to the dark ages. Like Napolean the man didn't 'believe' but joined the fundamentalists and told them what they wanted to hear. Quite un-nerving. Not Mitcheners best yarn, but the one that has made me think the most over the years.

[just john]

[quote user="Quillan"] I do believe in a ban on covering your face regardless of anything religious or whatever. The next ban I would like to see is a ban on religion, I think its already caused an horrendous number of deaths over the centuries and enough is enough.[/quote]

I agree in part, the right to freedom of movement is surely identification for all, not just a passport for border control; as for religion, well each to their own, but the law of the land must surely protect the rights of all, especially over and against any religion claiming a higher authority.
I might add whilst having been brought up in a faith I have come to believe only in here and now.

[Quillan]

I don't have a problem with people believing in God it's just religion I have a problem with. I mean the Muslim and Christian God for example is the same, as is the Jewish God. If you banned religion, kept the bible and simply said that you pray to God in your own personal way and not as a group/religion. Having faith is simply believing in God it should not be Methodist, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish or whatever thing just simply believing in God.

[Quillan]

After I wrote that I just thought of a program I saw on UK TV about the census and religion. Everyone was arguing because their own agenda seemed to be, in my mind, was to pick out to some degree ethnicity and for various religious leaders to be able to say that their religion was more popular than another, bit like school kids in a playground. For me a simpler question would simply be "Do you believe in a higher being" or something similar but without the word God or a particular religion.

[Mr Coeur de Lion]

I don't believe religion is the problem+ If we banned it, then mankind would just invent something else to enable him to be crappy to others about.

[Mme poivre]

Just listening to a debate about it on radio 2

[sunny]

I don't understand how this law can pass in a democracy...

a) i think it is an infringement on my liberty that I cannot wear a hat with a veil or a ski mask - this is my right and I don't see why I should give it up!

b) if it is a religious/secular type of debate, then the govt. should either allow or ban all symbols - crucifies, jewish hats, turbans, burkhas whatever...but how can they justify banning all of these...after all, what about freedom of individual expression?

c) finally, as a woman, i am sick of the law/ society/fashion saying what I can/cannot wear, whether it is a miniskirt (supposedly no-no if above a certain age) or burkha - if I want to go out in wearing a purple velvet mini-skirt and a burkha top-thingy with slits for the eyes, by god, that is my birthright and I don't want that twat Sarkozy or his minions telling me what I can and cannot wear in public

This law is so daft, i can't believe it has passed...now that we have the dangerous burkha/veil/helmet wearers under control, can we focus on th minor task of the world economy and those pesky banker bonuses please...?

[Quillan]

[quote user="Mr Coeur de Lion"]I don't believe religion is the problem+ If we banned it, then mankind would just invent something else to enable him to be crappy to others about.[/quote]

I did, its called it racism and then linked the two together and in mankind's mind called it being a Muslim irrespective of the fact you can have white Muslims. Religion has nothing really to do with believing in God. Does Voting for a particular political party actually make you a member, no, you vote because of your personal beliefs in that party and that it will do what you want. Now we all know what happens when you do that, they lie and you never get what you want anyway. Bit like religion, they tell you to pray to God their way but you still don't get what you want.

[cooperlola]

Oh, Sunny, I do so agree.  Whilst I detest what the burkha can stand for (and I don't believe for a moment that every wearer uses one for the same reason) in terms of the opression of women, I just cannot believe that rational argument is advanced by the banning of any symbol, however hateful.  I just don't fall for this argument about security - if somebody wants to rob a bank then I assume they'll carry on covering their faces just as they always did and no law of this sort will stop them.  If the burkha is being used by men to opress their women folk then a ban will just result in the women in question not being allowed to leave their homes - it will not advance the cause of the oppressed.

There are few things I find more revolting than the sight of somebody with nails through his hands and feet and barbed wire round his head with blood pouring from his wounds (how sick is that?) but I can't imagine that by telling people to cover the horrid things up because I don't like them, that I would advance my arguments against the existence of a god by one iota.

[idun]

Sunny, I was very lucky to start work in the late 1960's when we women started to get equal pay and I always did for all the years I worked. I put great value on women's rights to live freely.

It is an affront to my very core when I see a woman in a burkha or niqab. It is saying to the world that 'I am a woman who is invisible, I am no one and count for nothing on this planet and this is how women should be'. It is prison for women. Choice, well choice is a precious thing and should be used wisely and not by these mad cows who believe that their 'right to chose' should be of more account than it's overall effect which demeans all women. The fight was too hard and long to let it slip and then lose it all.

[cooperlola]

[quote user="idun"]

Sunny, I was very lucky to start work in the late 1960's when we women started to get equal pay and I always did for all the years I worked. I put great value on women's rights to live freely.

It is an affront to my very core when I see a woman in a burkha or niqab. It is saying to the world that 'I am a woman who is invisible, I am no one and count for nothing on this planet and this is how women should be'. It is prison for women. Choice, well choice is a precious thing and should be used wisely and not by these mad cows who believe that their 'right to chose' should be of more account than it's overall effect which demeans all women. The fight was too hard and long to let it slip and then lose it all.

[/quote]I agree with you, Idun.  However, does a ban help those who are most affected?  Does it advance the cause of women's liberation from opression?  Will it free the women in France who are forced to wear it (as opposed to those who choose to do so?)  Whom does a ban help but the fundamentalists who will now be able to argue that they are being discriminated against because of the way they practice their religion?  This whole thing is completely *rse about face, imho - a symptom, not the disease, is being "cured" here.

[g8vkv]

Maybe it's started

[chessie]

OK - how about you all read an article by an Imam of the Oxford  Islamic Congregation and Chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre in Oxford.

His name is Taj Hargey - his first words of the article are -

'The burkha is an alien, cultural monstrosity...'

I would suggest you ALL read his article;  he's an educated, intelligent prominent Muslim, - and his views on the Burka are thought provoking.

What is extremely interesting, though, for all those who've shouted at me in the past and accused me of being a racist, and all the other nasty little left-wing slogans when I have criticised Islam and the Burka - this gentleman - an educated Muslim - has views that coincide with the views of a lot of people on here, who have also been shouted at in the past.

I would suggest you read his article.      Unfortunately, here I condemn myself, and most of you with closed minds won't read it because - horror of horrors - it's in the Daily mail, and therefore not true, and biased, and lies and just won't fit in with the views that some of you have.

To those with open minds - please go and read.....(sorry - can't do the link) -

Daily Mail - 'The burka is an alien, cultural monstrosity...can it CAN be banned in Britain - by Dr Taj Hargey

Chessie

[Russethouse]

The link:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1375770/The-burka-oppresses-women-required-Islamic-law--doesnt-mean-Britain-follow-Frances-footsteps.html

[cooperlola]

What struck me most was his comment that "this is too blunt an instrument to combat the blight of burkas on Europe’s streets."  He puts it far better than I, but it is what I was trying to say.  We need to change minds, not play around on the fringes and disguise it (sorry about the pun) under the heading of "security".  Why does the goverment here find it necessary to wrap this up in legislation about hiding identity?  If it's about helping to combat the opression of women - why not say so? 

I don't think it's racist to be in favour of the ban - but I do think that it provides a great get-out clause for the fundamentalists to pretend that it is about racism, and that is another fence at which the legislation falls flat on its face.  Equally, I'm not against it because I'm a socialist, and a raging leftie - I'm against the ban because I believe that it is self-defeating and will cause far more problems than it solves. .

[Judith]

[quote user="idun"]

Sunny, I was very lucky to start work in the late 1960's when we women started to get equal pay and I always did for all the years I worked. I put great value on women's rights to live freely.

It is an affront to my very core when I see a woman in a burkha or niqab. It is saying to the world that 'I am a woman who is invisible, I am no one and count for nothing on this planet and this is how women should be'. It is prison for women. Choice, well choice is a precious thing and should be used wisely and not by these mad cows who believe that their 'right to chose' should be of more account than it's overall effect which demeans all women. The fight was too hard and long to let it slip and then lose it all.

[/quote]

Idun

I am much of like mind - we are obviously of an age.  Personally I would find wearing anything like a veil or burqa so uncomfortable (I hate wearing hats, for example, unless it is really cold), that I would be hard pressed to see the reason why it is worn at all, in anything other than a hot and sandy region, where I can see it would protect rather more than most outfits would.  But whilst I see ( and hear - we discussed this today in my French conversation class, where I did not say much...) that women wearing the burqua are regarded as invisible - to me they stand out like a sore thumb in most western countries, and this alone makes me feel that wearing one rather negates the whole idea ...... 

[Quillan]

A woman in a burkha or niqab does not always mean their rights as a woman are being limited. If a person decides to wear a particular piece of clothing, whatever it may be, then that's up to them. The only feeling on the subject of covering your face is that personally I like to see what people are like when I talk to them, seeing their face also makes me feel secure. I feel a certain amount of assumption is going on in that every woman who wears a burkha or niqab is being forced to by their husband or another person, that may not always be the case, it may be that it's their choice but I get the feeling the latter may be being ignored. This is not to say that some women who wear a woman in a burkha or niqab do so because they are ordered too which I agree is wrong.

If we are going to ban certain cloths I would like to see the kilt banned because it makes a man look effeminate and I would like to see women banned from wearing trousers as it makes them look masculine.

[sunny]

Idun,

I agree that we need to address issues of equality and freedom for women. This affects all of us, not just a small minority of muslim women. Now, if Sarkozy came up with laws that provide greater maternity benefits, loans for women starting new businesses, quotas for women in boardrooms, more help for women suffering from domestic abuse, more stringent rape sentences, and so on, I am all for these measures.

But what on earth does banning veils achieve, in terms of women's equality?

I see some of my male colleagues sniggering and making comments regarding the physical attributes of female co-workers or acting as if women who have just returned from maternity leave are not serious about work because they have kids now. All these things are discriminatory and demeaning to women. And how would a ban on veils help...?

I personally don't find the veil a problem (although it does seem a bit OTT to me)...maybe because I have had friends in university who were muslim and some wore the veil and they went on to become research scientists and professors... they didn't seem timid or brainwashed. They face the same issues at their workplace and home as I do - juggling family responsibilities and work, the old boys network, lack of female role models in the work place after reaching mid-senior level ...again, how would a ban on the veil solve these?

This law is simply stupid, if I may say so, and is an affront to all women...if Sarkozy had to ban something, why not men's beards/ mustaches that cover their face...just leave us women alone to dress how ever we like, and address the issues that *really* bother us and hold us down.

BTW, I am an agnostic and don't really care about any religion...

[Gardengirl]

''If we are going to ban certain cloths I would like to see the kilt banned because it makes a man look effeminate and I would like to see women banned from wearing trousers as it makes them look masculine.''

Oh Quillan, I can' agree with you there at all! I love to see a Scotsman in a kilt, and if there are bagpipes involved as well, I'm very happy! Maybe it's my Scottish background.

And I think many of we women look good in trousers - I hope if we ever meet you don't think I look particularly masculine in my trousers!  [:)]

[Hoddy]

I think this law is a muddle because it has no clear aim.

I would be in favour of a law which banned the covering of faces in order to hide identity. For example, I think that people on public protests, marches and demonstrations should be prepared to show their faces.

To single out women who cover their faces for religious reasons is discriminatory. To say that the law is passed to help those women is simply laughable.

Hoddy

[idun]

In France in 1965 laws were reformed. Women were given the right to deal with their own affairs AND open their own bank account. AND they could work without having to ask their husband for permission.

 

And that means before then that married women had next to no rights over their own affairs.

 

In historical terms that was just a blink away.

 

Lest any woman forget, for most of history our role has been ignored, demeaned and we have been 2nd, 3rd or worse class people. In fact I suspect that in some times animals have had more 'value' than we had. And yet no man on this planet exists without 'woman'.

 

What a lutte there has been, whittling away at that ultimate predjudice of which we have been victims since time immemorial  and for 'men'  to start to treat the other half of human kind in a proper manner, so we can work together as partners in life.

 

The majority of women in the west must have priority over dark age cultural values from another part of the world, these niqabs and burkhas come from countries that are still living in the dark ages where women are concerned. I really believe that we have to be vigilant and  preserve was has been achieved so recently.

 

These women are invisible, they live in their imposed or self imposed prisons, but they should know that it is not OK. Every time they wear them in public, they erode every womans rights.

 

Women have had to fight for those precious rights we now have and if the muslim fundamentalists don’t like it, then the fight must go on, they must not win.

 

So it was said that they say that they feel ‘free’ in their tents. WHY, are the men in their societies so badly behaved, unable to control their urges so much that a woman has to be completely covered to feel at ease.  That is actually quite disgusting.

 

Men will look at women, women should get over it, it is natural. And women will look at men, I don’t think that most men would have a problem with that. All sounds very healthy to me.

 

And that is how I feel about it all. Wish I was better with words, but I am not.

 

 

 

 

[breizh]

I have a very sick feeling in my stomach when the issues like this arise. Politicians playing games for votes? Sarko needs any vote he can get from Ms Le Pen. Meanwhile there are reckoned to be somewhere between 6-10 million muslims in France, roughly 7-8 times more than any other European country.

The law of Unintended Consequences comes into play here. Effectively people are being forced to chose between their loyalty to the State, and their loyalty to their religion. A choice forced on them by the State. Seems to me the perfect way of Radicalising those millions of Algerians, Tunisians, Morrocans, etc in the HLMs. I'm actually a bit scared. Anyone want to guess what is going to happen this summer?

There is no "When in Rome, in this case". France is secular state, not Catholique, not christian. The State owns and maintains the buildings used by Catholiques, Protestants and Jews for worship, paid for by taxes provided in part by Muslims. Anyone spot the problem.

I would have thought, France particualarly, would be very, very cautious about picking on any religious group. History, is not very favourable to them, even during the 20th century.

Maybe, I'm younger than the age group that populates this forum (late 30s), but I don't see a Burqa. I notice it, in the same way as a notice a girl in a short skirt, but in the same way, I've forgotten it 10 seconds later. It's just not an issue for me.  

[Hoddy]

"Politicians playing games for votes."

This is the point I was trying to make earlier even though I didn't do it very clearly. If the government had suggested a law against all face covering then it would have achieved two objectives at the same time.

I agree with Idun absolutey about women's rights, I think I would go further and say that things have gone backwards rather in the UK in recent years.

As for the burqua, it is so isolating. I meet my grand children from school on a regular basis. We are a motley collection of people waiting in the yard with a wide range of ages and ethnicities. Over the years, I've developed a sort of 'pass the time of day' acquaintance with many of them. The only people who don't/can't join in are the two women in burquas who stand at the back of the yard. It makes me angry to see their daughters coming out of school with their heads bound tightly in a hijab and a hot sports day to see them wearing track suit bottoms.

Hoddy