Integration, isolation, friendships... (offshot from the DSK thread)

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

This whole integration thing that is mentioned; well, until you start hearing the whispers about the down right disgusting and despicable in a french village, then no one is 'integrated' in my opinion. Because as I said, every one lies. They do every day in France with their ça va and the reply ça va. How often is that response a true one. But we say it as it is expected and a polite front to real life.

[/quote]This is not a uniquely French phenomonon. I was brought up just after the war not to complain and if asked how I was to say "Very well, thank you". Frankly I dread meeting acquaintances who, when asked how they are, insist on telling you in great detail exactly what their problems are.  With friends of course it is different.

What also winds me up are people who say one thing to your face and the opposite behind your back. I find hypocracy one of the most unattractive vices. 

[The Riff-Raff Element]

[quote user="idun"]

This whole integration thing that is mentioned; well, until you start hearing the whispers about the down right disgusting and despicable in a french village, then no one is 'integrated' in my opinion. .

[/quote]

That's a laugh! In my experience you only have to be here five minutes before every meddlesome old biddy and interfering codger is regaling you with the "sale histoire de x, y or z." Of course, all the others are hypocritical gossips but you can depend on their discretion and veracity. [:-))]

We even used to get the odd anonymous letter (from more than one person, judging by the handwriting) denouncing the activities of various of our neighbours.

It reminded me strongly of the village in which I grew up in Norfolk. In fact, it's probably the same in every village on God's Green Earth.

After a few years you start to find out what is actually going on and it turns out - for the most part - to be very dull indeed. The fiction is much more fun.

[idun]

That certainly wasn't my experience in the city in which I lived or the village. In the early days,  I'd hear banal gossip, but nothing in comparison to what I found out about later. All the dark things came out later when I got to know folks properly and was not fiction and real life horror sometimes.

I remember discussing this with Pucette who used to post on here and  she lived over your side of France, not mine, which had it's own dark tales and certainly not fiction, sadly some of which she ended up being party involved in. My own dark tales are not fiction either sadly, because like Pucette, I became involved in them.

I understand that life is life and bad things happen everywhere. It is just that I hear on here of villages where everyone is nice and all say bonjour and no crime, etc etc etc and that isn't how I believe it is.

I am now smiling, you say it is greener for you in France and now you say that about where you live, and I would have been freaked out if I had found all the bad as soon as I moved somewhere, I wouldn't have stayed and hoped that there was no substance. I only hope there is as little substance as you believe.

[Sara]

Where I live hardly anyone intergrates unless you are either family or a good friend. This I have noticed every year at  the christmas party, nobody is that friendly and will only smile if you smile first. I have watched closely as I find it rather amusing .It is no different here than in England. People have busy lives and are moving from all different areas and obviously they do not know many people and they do not care. Who can blame them? It is now a very different world that we live in, when we first moved here there was the village shop that closed last year as nobody used it, that was a shame. My son and I used to pop in once a week to buy some sweets. I agree with Idun people kiss and say Ca va but hardly wait to hear a reply, they are off down the road before the other one has replied Oui Cava?

Some people like England are selfish and do not have any manners 'my immediate neighbours would be sanding down doors at 8.00pm in the evening just as we're eating our dinner ( As I am writing this they are sanding , which is fine as it is before 7.00pm) they have been sanding down doors since May (?). Last bank holiday Monday they had a digger there all day, it made a huge noise, god know's what the other neighbours thought. I personally would never do this on a public holiday. They have just put a septic tank in, it was a huge job, must have cost an absolute fortune as they were there over a week, nearly two weeks (?)

We have not fully intergrated as I have mentioned on other threads my husband is chronically ill and we therefore do not socialise, it makes him feels worse if he talks too long. People here in my village or in our local town know my husband is seriously ill and NOT once has anyone asked how he is, like England people are not interested , everyone has their own lives, anyone with a chronic illness is boring and are not worth talking to. C'est la vie.........

[Russethouse]

 You know what Sara, there is a very old saying 'If you want a friend, first be one' people are pretty much the same eveywhere - some nice. some not, some so so, its just a shame your husband is so poorly now and it might be difficult to invest the time in making friends, just when you could probably do with them.....

 Frankly my French is abysmal but an interested look and a smile go a very long way in any language.

[Sara]

That was not my point, I am happy with just smiling at people and just saying bonjour. ( I try and avoid kissing on cheek especially in winter as I do not want to catch any colds that I could then pass onto my husband, a mild cold can then lead onto pneumonia ) I do not want to intergrate and make friends. As I said when you are chronically ill 90% of friends are not interested. The first few years people are kind and nice but after 10 or 20 years they lose interest, it is a sad fact of life. It does not bother us , we are passed that now and are happy with our family (can be hard sometimes) When I wrote this it was mainly just to get my point accross that people are people where ever you go and just like in England people in my village have stopped socialising together and the village community has ended. The maires words not mine. 

Because of my husbands illness I am very sensitive towards anyone who is ill, and will always try and help anyone who needs it.  So when and if I make new friends I would like them to sometimes just to ask how I am (I mean a genuine Ca va?)  and how my husband is doing, I don't want pity but it would be nice sometimes to speak to somebody who will not get bored..... .

 I am and always have been a very good listener and like to help people . Before moving here I was a mentor for a very beautiful deaf girl .

[Russethouse]

My mother lives in a village and there is lots going on there, if you are a joiner, sadly she never was so now she is unable to get about she has long lonely days.

 

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="Sara"]

I do not want to intergrate and make friends.

I don't want pity but it would be nice sometimes to speak to somebody who will not get bored..... .

[/quote]

Hi Sara - as you can see, I've pulled out a couple of quotes you've made in your recent posts. I kow all this is completely off-subject but ...fed up with DSK anyway! :-)

To be honest, my jaw dropped reading the things you've said and I've been left with a feeling of a life being completely 'unlived' - not your husbands - yours.

I know you don't want any pity but I truly do feel pity for you - you've left me no choice. One life, one chance and all that.....

Sometimes, people stay well away from situations they find awkward, difficult to deal with or simply just those presented (or perceived) in a negative way - human nature I guess.

My Mother-in-law is in exactly the same situation as Russethouses' mum - please don't join them !

Very best of luck / Simon :-)

 

[5-element]

Sara - I wouldn't want yours to be just a voice in the wilderness, so I can say that some of your particular experience exactly duplicate yours.

We live on an old lotissement, green and leafy and yet very close to the centre of a small town. Overall, the people who live around us have lived there ever since the houses were built, circa 1960. Nobody moves. When people die, the next generation takes over the house.  They have all known each other for yonks. The house we bought was up for sale, as the father had committed suicide in the garden shed, and the family just couldn't bear to stay there (we didn't know at the time).

So we have now lived here 10 years and realise we have made a mistake - (OK some will say, move on, but in many ways it is not really feasible). I don't think I have ever lived anywhere that has ever been so unfriendly. After some initial interest, perhaps only curiosity, many of the neighbours are now completely ignoring us to the point that we are invisible to them. That includes across the road, even though at first, I was helping their teenage son with his English as he had problems at school -  he was coming to our house once a week, which was hell, as the boy was rebelling very hard against what was his parents' idea. . Slowly, they started to ignore us, and now are hard pressed to even say bonjour. The boy has now grown up, is training to become a gendarme, and has also become the most civilised of them all as he is the only one who will acknowledge me in the street.

My husband is also chronically and seriously ill (not the same as Sara's husband, but at times he needs urgent and prolonged hospitalisation, and the ambulance comes to get him). Only one or two  neighbours have ever asked after his health, although it is clear to everyone that the ambulance is there and they see him stagger into it. (I hasten to add, if ever I stop in the street with anyone, I am treated to a great detail of their ailments and their families' ailements, and yet there is very little reciprocity). 

People are surprised when they find that I am French,  they tell me "Ah but I thought it was les Anglais who live there!"(probably because we always speak English at home to each other). I hasten to add, both my husband and I joined a number of organisations and associations (different ones from each other) when we arrived, so we do know quite a lot of people in the town, and each one of us has a number of activities, we go to events where there is hardly ever any other expat, only French people. But here on this lotissement, it has been astonishing: only a handful of neighbours will even respond to bonjour - and the ones who do, we have got to know in a different context, some club or association. There is only one exception: a couple in their 40's who also moved here from elsewhere, at about thesame time as us. We have their keys when they go away, they have ours and feed the cat, etc.

We have sometimes thought "we could just die in here, and wonder how long it would take for someone to notice". Very unlike anywhere else I have ever lived, even Paris or London!

I am not "moaning" about it, as both my husband and I have quite a wide network of friends (especially him, who is much more sociable than I am anyway) so that we don't feel "all alone in the world". But certainly, as far as neighbourhood goes, we certainly are on our own, and it had never happened before to either of us. Perhaps it is only a local phenomenon.[blink], and sometimes it is a little disquieting.

[idun]

And that is why my husband's old boss didn't go 'home' when he retired. He and his wife are from down south and found it too unfriendly. His MIL moved back to her old village and is terribly lonely and isolated.

Still I think the place I personally would never go to live is Normandy, top of my most unfriendly places in France, and we have found the people not only unfriendly, but sometimes officious too.  Then Antibes, followed by Cannes.

Brittany the neighbour is top of my list to go to/move to as the most friendly, and that is taking into account the odd miserable people we have encountered. Nice comes in pretty high too.

So that both of you have had problems in these two regions doesn't surprise me.

Still sometimes people are better off not knowing their neighbours anywhere.

[Sara]

Simon, yes I feel like my life is unlived .Obviously it would be nice to have a well husband , he is only 48, I am only 42..  We married 20 years ago, and I believe that if you truly love someone then you will want  to stick by them whatever happens, if he did not have me he would have no one. You said 'one life and all that' I chose to be with my husband who is very kind and loving and I would never abandon him, I know that sadly the majority of marriages who are in a similar situation  to mine do end . It becomes too much for the other person. In away I can understand as it is a very lonely life, but I could not do that.

He first became ill after his vaccinations as a child when he was 4, before then he was a fit child. He has always tried to fight his health and when he was younger would have some better months than others, infact when he was 17- 25 he used to try and race moto bikes round Brands hatch and Snetterton. He had a very good job in London which funded this, but over the years he got weaker and weaker. My husband is a great conversationlist (but talking too much now makes hin extremely tired and unwell)  and used to have too many friends, infact when I started dating him it was quite funny as everywhere we went people would recognise him and come up to us to chat to him. He was and is a funny man (although obviously when your in severe agony 24 hours a day it is harder to be funny) he has  a great sense of humour  . He still tries to do as much as he can, he tries to do most of the chores round the house , as it keeps him active and we go out a lot as a family, mainly pic nics and visiting historical places. For the amount of time he has had his disease he has done remarkably well, most people are either bed ridden or have sadly died. So we have a lot to be grateful for. We have a beautiful kind thoughtful son and I am truly honoured to have him. In an ideal world, my husband and I would still be working (as we're young) and taking our summer holidays all over Europe. We would love to take my son to Italy, Greece and many more beautiful places that I know he would love to visit, but like a lot of people this is not feasable due to lack of funds .(and my husband is too ill, just to get to the air port would be an ordeal and not possible)....

[cooperlola]

I am 6ks from Normandy, Idun.  Does that mean that when I drive up the road I arrive magically in unfriendly territory?[:)]

I have just spent half an hour with my neighbour discussing our cancers.  It's been lovely to have a chat to somebody who's already lost their hair and got it back again, spent nights throwing up all over the bed etc etc.  We don't spend much time together (I don't do "integrating" in any country, thanks) but in a crisis she's great.  Plus I know she gets lonely and bored as she's out in the country and her o/h is at work all day.  Maybe I'm just lucky, I don't know.  I had a similar relationship with my neighbours in the UK ( we only had one geographically-close neighbour there too).  If we needed them, they were there, the rest of the time we just got on with our own lives.

 

Sara, one thing that I know is that a good marriage is worth so much.  Clearly you have one such and you have had more pressure on yours, so it seems, than around ten of the rest of us put together.  I met two women when I was in the rehab' unit whose husbands had left them just months after accidents left them (the women, that is) wheelchair bound.  There are plenty of sh*tty people around and rubbish marriages to boot.  Those of us who are lucky enough to have found the right partners have a great deal to feel happy about - ill health notwithstanding.

[Christine Animal]

How could you leave someone when they are in a wheelchair, just when they really need you?  Purée!

 

[Russethouse]

 Oh, I can understand that -  being in a wheel chair doesn't make any one lovely or pleasant  if they are not already - they are the same person, and if they are the type that enjoys being demanding ( and there are some people like that ) then I should think it has the potential to be purgatory for both parties.

Maybe some couples just rubbed along day to day but the accident/illness fatally skews the balance ?

On the other hand if the able bodied person was already not helpful, giving or generous of spirit having a partner relying on them would be horrid too, and for the person who needs assistance....

[5-element]

Especially when there is no hope that they will ever get any better (i.e. when the "get well soon" cards are painfully inadequate), it is really hard to cope, and a number of people (men or women) just make a run for it.

This is exactly what we were told by the professionals when my husband first went on dialysis.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the carer is "bad" or heartless - just that they simply cannot cope. Almost anyone who has had to care for someone in that way, must have had the occasional fantasy of doing a runner.

In fact, having that fantasy is probably quite healthy. Then you know for sure that you are staying out of choice, and out of love. Or a mix of love and sense of duty, which is OK too. 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

How could you leave someone when they are in a wheelchair, just when they really need you?  Purée!

 

[/quote]

I am with you about that .

I am not married, but have been, and to me, the " in good or bad health " really means something.

If the partner loved the person, or could " cope " before , why should that change because of illness ?

 

[Russethouse]

Well for one thing the person who is ill or had an accident probably has some adjustment to make and that process may be difficult to live through.....everyones different.

 My mother is dependant on two carers, four times a day and my sister and I looking after everything from making sure she has her medication to making sure  her bills are paid, household repairs etc - often she is rude and ungrateful and frankly refuses to help herself even when she could, nor consider anything that would make everyone life, including hers, easier -  A lot of it is just attention seeking..........I miss my father more than I can say but I'm glad he was spared this

 

[Christine Animal]

I did the same for my mother-in-law with Alzheimer's for five years.  Her own daughters just wanted to shove her in a home to fade away.  After five years of care when everyone said how well she was and looked, that's what they did, took her away from us and into a home where she gave in and didn't last long, despite all the visits I made.  It was costing too much and there wouldn't have been enough left for them (the sisters!).  Yes, people are all different.

 

[Russethouse]

 I've come to the conclusion my mother would be better in a home - she has no patience so if she can't get what she wants the moment she thinks of it she is nasty about it. In a home she'd be able to use the commode when she wanted to rather than having to wait for carers, for example (that must be horrid) be able to go to bed when she wanted, get her eyes tested, feet done, nails cut, etc. She'd actually be better off in a home too......I'm not holding my breath though - she wouldn't be able to have a cigarette just when she fancied......[Www]

[cooperlola]

[quote user="Frenchie"]If the partner loved the person, or could " cope " before , why should that change because of illness ?

 

[/quote]Because being dependent upon others does change you.  No matter how hard you try, it's difficult to consider the feelings of your carer when you're struggling yourself to come to terms with what has happened.  Getting the right balance is hard enough when you are both fit and well - it's much, much tougher when one of you has health or mobility problems.  I agree about the "in sickness and in health" point (although we didn't actually say any of that it was implied, I think) but it's a lot easier to say than to do.  I can really understand how it could easily be the last straw that breaks a (perhaps already fragile) marriage, or that just breaks the spirit of one partner or the other.  My point was to say to Sara that, even though her life is clearly really hard, she is a lucky woman to have a relationship that has stood up to all that's aparently been thrown at it.

[cooperlola]

R/H, I don't know about you, but I think this is a very interesting topic, maybe worthy of its own thread?  I only spotted this because I was looking in to see what DSK was up to.  Any change this could be split?

[Simon-the-censored]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

How could you leave someone when they are in a wheelchair, just when they really need you?  Purée!

 

[/quote]

Because…the illness provides the defining moment where you realise that you are with them, more out of a sense of duty or pity, instead of love. How awful must that be – for both parties?

In Sara’s most recent posting she opened by saying that she felt her life is unlived. She then goes on to talk about her husband and son – nothing about herself.

Crushing.

 

Simon :-)

PS agree with Coops - discussion warrants it's own thread. Much more interesting and important than going on about a dirty old man (DSK).

 

[cooperlola]

This thread (from another forum) says it all.  The heading alone....

[idun]

Coops, that is exactly what happened to us when we had spent two weeks or so in Brittany and drove across to Normandy. A shock to us all, even the kids asked what was wrong with people. Truthfully, I expected to have to give a  n a z i  salute to some people, so officious were they.  And it didn't get any better no matter where we were, well apart from the American Cemetary. 

Ofcourse I could end up there again, as these things happen in life, but I will be mentally prepared. Give me the rudest of parisien waiters any day.

[Frenchie]

[quote user="cooperlola"]This thread (from another forum) says it all.  The heading alone....[/quote]

That was food for thought, and I understand what you mean .

Some people remain quite the same though !!  My gran had a stroke and has been bed ridden for 3 years now, totally dependent , she lives at my auntie's, my mum visits her every other day, and they tell me she 's still adorable and thanks them for what they all do for her .

But I know some people change to different degrees.

I guess all people are different.