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Integration, isolation, friendships... (offshot from the DSK thread)


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[quote user="EmilyA"]I will stick with the notion that integration means living in a community and making a contribution towards it.[/quote]Hmm.  I tend to be in your camp rather, Emily, if only because of the semantic point that to my mind it means becoming an integral part of something.  Thus I think it can be possble for an incomer to do, provided that their participation is encouraged and welcomed by a community, rather than being seen as interference.. 

On a personal note, I don't think that I'll ever integrate into my local community, either in France or Britain, because I don't join in things, even though I might well join them.  I'm far more likely to integrate into a virtual community like this one because I only have to participate on my own terms and when I want to - nobody's going to knock on my door or call me when I don't want to see or hear from them - I simply have to turn my computer off!

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I have rarely found french friends do impromtu visits but they will call.. Apart from one, all the others like invitations, either to see me or me to see them.

When I moved these friends came to help me pack. We ended up with three containers full of stuff when we got to England. The movers did a lot of it, but about a third of it was done by my friends. I asked for a bit of a hand, but in fact, they got on with it and had me doing other things. They came back to clean too, that house was nickel when I left it They are lovely lovely wonderful people and I still call them regularly.

If things were different I would have been back to see them regularly, but for the first time in my life, I have not been a travelling for some time. IF I can ever get my life back to some normality, then I will go and travel and see them regularly.

 

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A lot of our french friends call by on the spur of the moment. I must admit to hating that but they are always charming (well in the main) that it would be churlish of me to put them off.

And that's in nasty Normandie, Idun ;)

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It's not the friends who pop in unannounced and phone up at any time of the day or night - they know me well enough to understand a) that I like to have advanced warning if they want to see me and b) to leave a message on my answerphone so I can call them back when it suits me. 
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[quote user="cooperlola"]

[quote user="EmilyA"]I will stick with the notion that integration means living in a community and making a contribution towards it.[/quote]Hmm.  I tend to be in your camp rather, Emily, if only because of the semantic point that to my mind it means becoming an integral part of something.  Thus I think it can be possble for an incomer to do, provided that their participation is encouraged and welcomed by a community, rather than being seen as interference.. 

[/quote]

Etymologically it comes from 'integrare' (to make whole), that is to say a compound not a mixture.

 Blue and yellow remain separate, but can be seen alongside each other. The integrated version would be green.

That is why I believe integration comes about by marriage or partnerships over several generations.

On the other hand a multi-cultural society has different strands living alongside each other, and each may play a part in a larger whole.

The originals stay blue or yellow, but there are increasing numbers of greens ...and the whole canvas is made up of all three colours.

I live in a highly varied multi ethnic area in which I am am accepted with various degrees of tolerance, but I am certainly not part of all the different cultures and religions. I retain my identity as do my neighbours.

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I am guessing that most people on this forum are retired late 50's upwards (?) . I don't want to start another war but I find that I generally get on with older people. I am 42 and have a lot of time for older people, I generally find older people more caring, patient and more gentil. Obviously there are always the exception.... If I get a smile in the street it is nearly always from an older person. so I am guessing that you oldies [:)][;-)] must meet pleasant older  people. The majority of older expats that I have come across keep themselves at home alot of the time. They are happy pottering around in their gardens and having their lovely friends over (lucky them  , as I explained earlier this is not possible for us to entertain as my husband is chronically ill)  In fact some people only venture out for shopping once or twice a week. I on the other hand, when my son goes to school travel out to the town 4 times a day. I walk through the town and wait outside the school gates for my son. I see a  lot of people. It is the young adults that worry me, it is the next generation....  Sorry but here in Pont Audemer (told you where I live now) they are definately not gentil, I have been laughed at by a gang of teenagers . I must admit I did look quite funny, I had an eye infection and wore my old fashioned glasses. But I don't think it warranted that!

I take my son swimming at least twice a week and often feel vulnerable by these youngsters, they shout, openly take the mickey out of people. They jump in the pool with out looking and fight amongst themselves, we often get out earlier because we don't want to get hurt. I have been kicked in the stomache once  but luckily not too hard, the boy was ok, so I did not make an issue of it. We see children (young adults) in groups, hoodies walking with cans... There is a problem with drugs. I could close my eyes and ears and pretend to myself that they are not there, but unfortunately it is. It is becoming a real problem at the local gendarmerie, with crime. I just worry for my son growing up here. I know I probably worry too much as I have an ill husband (who incidentally collapsed yesterday infront of his son, just through the amount of pain he had -but that's another story.. 

I will say this once again, I just feel like England that the world is changing and France is changing to. Where you live can you honestly say  that the youngsters are kind, not selfish, considerate, gentil and friendly. I hope to hear that they are and it is just here in Pont Audemer, because I will then seriously think about moving for my child.

Incidentally, an american lady who has only just moved here went to the Dr's and the Doctor warned her not to get close to the people in Pont Audemer, she had apparently heard and sern too many nasty things.

Sorry , if this subject upsets people, but this way of life is upsetting me! This is very real, not my imagination... I will carry on being friendly and smiling and saying bonjour. I just want a quiet life, with my family. All I want to see are genuine warm smiles and to feel my son will meet nice friends one day.. 

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As I mentioned before (yesterday ? ) when we visited beautiful Suisse Normandie we had lots of problems with the younger generation at a campsite. These young adults (early twenties) were so selfish it was unbelievable. We went to bed around eleven like most people, then we heard cars arriving at midnight. They were laughing, shouting to each other, while trying to put up their tent. At about one in the morning they had finished, putting teir tent up. Then the loudish music went on, they were 50 metres from our tent. We tried to ignore it, 2 went by then 3. At 4.00 they decided to play football, I kept waiting for some other french person to say something. At 5.00 my husband was not looking well at all and all I could hear was them laughing and shouting. I wanted to go to the loo, so I went up to them and told them they were being selfish. I just got a load of abuse. I was still hoping someone would help me (french) but everyone hid in their tents. Clearly the kids were on drugs, so  perhaps the other people were wise. We stayed up until 7.00 and then got up and made a coffee. Not surprising we went straight home to bed. . The people around us looked very sheepish  , a couple of french people said that there had been similar incidences the night before (?) I spoke to the warden before we left, did not pay of course, and told her that this was not acceptable..Then left..
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Hi Sara,

it is

good to hear from someone not wearing rose-tinted specs!

I

empathise with what you have written.

I live in

St Sever,14380 Normandy for part of the year and own a caravan

,always yearning  to go on  the road however, my sojourns

will not be in France for the reasons you mention!

I prefer to

go camping in  Kent! and mix with decent well meaning Europeans

who are well behaved /interesting to talk to, campers.

July

and August in France or Spain you get local teenagers staying on

camp-sites for their only annual holiday !

I am not surprised

that you were disappointed .

Because I am over

sixty,I can't directly relate to your experience with your son as ,

my son is 39!

Kind regards,

Leo

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[quote user="LEO"]

it is

good to hear from someone not wearing rose-tinted specs!

I

empathise with what you have written.

[/quote]

Sara and Leo I really am so very sorry to hear about your horrible experiences.  I don't doubt what your saying and it is very sad.  However, Leo I'm not wearing rose-tinted specs, I am just not seeing what you see.

This year so far we have visited  and stayed in the following departments.

Aisne

Somme

Tarn

Gironde (3 different sites, 3 different times of year)

Gers (3 different sites, 2 different times of year)

Haute Garonne

Aude (2 different sites and a railway station!)

Pyrenees Orientales

Pyrenees Atlantique (2 different sites)

Dordogne

Haute Alpes

Alpes de Haute Provence

Drome (2 different sites)

Haute Loire

Correze

We mainly stay on campsites but sometimes will stay in Aires.  We always visit during French school holidays or weekends as we have a son at school here, often we've arrived at sites and they've been full so we've had to keep searching... so our visits have been at busy times as well as out of season.  I guess we've just been lucky?

Now... if you want to ask me about the sites we stayed at in Italy - well two of the three we stayed in were very busy and very noisy... so we cut the visit short and headed back to the beautiful French Alps.

I do hope things improve for you Sara - it sounds like you are having a tough time.

p.s. I dont think I'm an old ex-pat... I'm in my 40's with a son at school [:$]

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Rose many thanks for getting back, wow you been to a quite a few places this year. How lovely, we have been to all the areas that you mentioned but over several years. Pleased to hear that you had a lovely time. The problem with the campsite in Suisse was that it was a bank holiday weekend, we will avoid this in future. Also we will avoid any busy looking campsites, probably prefer a farmers field!

Best wishes,

Sarah
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[quote user="Simon-come-lately"]And....the best place to live in the world would be..........??? Simon :-)[/quote]

 

One's own head where the world is just as it should be. The physical being will have to put up with the inconvenience of sharing this planet with people, situations and places the head does not like.

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 Its always worth enquiring on here about quiet camp sites, any one who belongs to a camping/caravan club may be able to get the info. The other idea may be to go somewhere where Eurocamp or Canvas holidays go - they usually look for sites for a family market and their couriers do their best to stop too much nocturnal activity.

 Does your husband encourage you to follow other interests, independent of him ?

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[quote user="Russethouse"]

 Its always worth enquiring on here about quiet camp sites, any one who belongs to a camping/caravan club may be able to get the info.

[/quote]

Sorry I'm wandering off the subject here but...

That's a good idea RH - we have a couple of good books and we use a forum if we know where we're heading... it's good to get recommendations.  This summer we pulled up at one site but it was full... it was huge so maybe it was a good thing.  We found a lovely little site a few miles further on. 

We've just come back from a trip and we stayed in an aire the first night.  We drove into a free spot and got stuck in sand.  Try as we may we couldn't get out.  After a few minutes of trying three lads came over (looked like they'd camped there all summer, not short of tattoos and piercings)  They said we were the 24th  people to get stuck.  They came equiped with jacks and wood and brut force and after a short time had us out and back on firm ground.  We were so grateful, we provided a spot of entertainment for everyone else... there was a little cheer as we drove out... I know it sounds a bit corney but we have found nothing but pleasant friendly folks on our travels.  So maybe doing a bit of research in advance is the key?

I did also wonder Sara if there were any groups for carers that you could join... either virtually or real?  So that you can talk to other folks in your situation? (maybe you already do this?)  It is hard caring for others, you do need someone to talk about how things are for you.

I also agree with RH in that my dad cared for my mum for nearly 20 years and he was lost when she died... He's had no life and no friends (people do stop visiting as the years go by) and as he's in his 70's he's pretty much stuck in his ways.  If he had tried to keep an independant life of his own I think it would have been a lot easier for him.  He does have his brother close by which is a blessing.

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Many thanks for your comments, I have tried a couple of things. I joined the badminton club but they were so competitive that I gave up after a couple of  months. They took it very seriously, I wanted just to meet new friends and have a laugh, but that was not what it was about. I am not very fit and although I could hit it back I was not quick enough..... I then hurt my back and because nobody phoned me (why should they ) I stopped going.  I used to go swimming while Jack was at school but now due to the bullying (I wrote something on bullying/ education thread) he eats at home at lunch times so I do n't have any free time. I thought about country dancing but I think they take that very seriously and that is not me.   I love walking and cycling. I love my food so I make anything that I fancy ( Indians, chinese or just a steak and kidney pie) I comfort eat a lot, so not to go over a size 12  I have to  exercise one hour a day.  I am happy (ish) looking after my family. If  I was in England I would work in a charity shop or citizens advise bureau (as I can help on managing debt) and I would join the WI (love making cakes). I would join the gym and health club. Over here they do not have a gym (like fitness first) they have a gym but it something from the 1960's men only and it very expensive.  

I have just got back from swimming we deliberately got there at lunch time as it is very quiet at that time of day. Jack (changed his name! Now cooler) took his lovely pretty french girl friend with him, they had fun. At 13.30 the lads came with their girlfriends and wanted to show off to them, by 14.00 it was chaotic and dangerous. In England they have rules not to jump in and bomb as it can be dangerous but I don't think they have that rule here. We managed to avoid their fighting and  escaped .

Regarding campsites we always go to quiet campsites but we got caught out that bank holiday, for what ever reason that was the place to be that weekend. Normally it is peaceful and the perfect place to go to relax. Suisse Normandie reminds me a bit like Dordognes ,Les Eyzies with the river and the mountains. A great place for canoeing. Unlike Dordogne it does n't take us 10 hours to get there.

I do a lot with my son, we have just finished a home project on the Romans . We go out a lot together (cycling,walking or swimming) he is a very happy boy. I have a lot to be grateful for. I don't  want to meet new friends at the moment, as I have been disapointed too many times ,also for other reasons I have mentioned before. The last 'good' friend in France  I had said that she believed that if people were 'positive' then they would not get sick! She then went on and said that she believed if people were positive then people would not get cancer! Well, where do you go from there? I knew then what she thought of my husband, just because you can't see pain they think your ok. My husband is positive, if he was n't he would be bed bound by now....

The sun has come out!! Were off for a walk... have a good day[:D]

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I've got to know quite a few locals through the Randonneurs in the village.  Because on average about 60 people turn up every month, there's a huge diversity of people in the group and as one is walking there's time to chat and get to know people.  The husband of a good friend of mine whom I met through the group is now our mayor and knowing them properly and socially (as opposed to just being on nodding terms) has been very useful as well as fun (their son has an English wife and lives in the UK and they are a very cosmopolitan couple.)  In a village of a couple of hundred people, I've met a remarkable number of folk just via that one group.
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[quote user="Sara"]

I had said that she believed that if people were 'positive' then they would not get sick! She then went on and said that she believed if people were positive then people would not get cancer! Well, where do you go from there? I knew then what she thought of my husband, just because you can't see pain they think your ok. My husband is positive, if he was n't he would be bed bound by now....

[/quote]You might like this, Sara:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/02/cancer-positive-thinking-barbara-ehrenreich

You can of course skip all the boring cancer stuff, but the bits at the end about positive thinking are interesting.  Oh, and she makes me laugh.

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 I was going to suggest the same -  I can't think that walking attracts the competitive types.....

A friend and I are planning to join a Nordic  walking group in the Autumn - not that I have ever done it...I'll try anything once !

I suspect a lot of the other Mums are rushing about and not chatty  because they have jobs maybe ?

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I keep wondering how happy your son is Sara. By the time mine were 8 they were always wanting to see their friends, go to their homes or them come to ours. And in summer when people were away, they'd put up with it, but they would be pleased when they could see them again.

It's OK a child being happy with his parents, but exclusively with his parents, that doesn't sound good to me. Socialising is part of growing up, isn't it?

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"A friend and I are planning to join a Nordic  walking group in the

Autumn - not that I have ever done it...I'll try anything once !"

Nordic walking, it's brilliant! I started doing this in 2008 and it has changed my life as far as exercise and new friendships are concerned.

email me RH if you want to know more.

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[quote user="cooperlola"][quote user="Sara"]

I had said that she believed that if people were 'positive' then they would not get sick! She then went on and said that she believed if people were positive then people would not get cancer! Well, where do you go from there? I knew then what she thought of my husband, just because you can't see pain they think your ok. My husband is positive, if he was n't he would be bed bound by now....

[/quote]You might like this, Sara:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/02/cancer-positive-thinking-barbara-ehrenreich

You can of course skip all the boring cancer stuff, but the bits at the end about positive thinking are interesting.  Oh, and she makes me laugh.

[/quote]

Sara - my OH has been known to call me a miserable b****r at times so maybe this is why I got my cancer  [:D] Interesting article Coops and I do hope that I'm finding you in fine fettle [Www]

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[quote user="Rose"]Sara - my OH has been known to call me a miserable b****r at times so maybe this is why I got my cancer  [:D] [/quote]As I was saying to somebody else today, one of the most miserable, negative people I know is as healthy as a horse at 89 so no, it doesn't follow.  I liked the article (I have just put the book on my Kindle) because I am a total sceptic about such things.  If alternative therapies and positive thought cured ill health then all the miseries would be dead and all the nice, positive people would be the only ones left on the planet.  All evidence to the contrary.

You didn't strike me as miserable, Rose.

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