DSK, can we believe this?

[idun]

I personally find Chancer a  very decent person and believe that he is trying to be very impartial on this thread. In fact I understand any of the men taking this stance. 

As a woman though, I find it breathtakingly shocking that any woman can appear to be so suspicious of the victim, any of the victims that we have heard of. Ladies, it does not feel impartial to me, it feels like a different sort of judgement.

IF as a general rule men fear false accusations, which I do understand men could well do.

THEN women should also fear that any plainte they make about sexual assault will not be taken seriously and that they will be forever judged about the way they live their lives.   

[Richard51]

PPP - you appear to be upset by "amoral immorality". In my book amoral equals not moral, immorality equals not moral. Therefore I assume you are upset by the assumption that the morals over sexual exploits of males in France, and other European countries (possibly Italy!) are perhaps less than in England (UK).

All I can say is that whilst morals, whatever that means, of individuals are possibly the same, I can't envisage the situation where DSK or the entrenched Italian leader could survive in the politics of the UK.

Your other posts on this thread seem, I think, to agree with this. I believe that its the differences in the developed "systems" rather than the morals of  individuals within that make the difference. Perhaps the less "moral" in the UK see this and either don't go into politics or keep their heads very low. I could, though, be very naive!

Mr R51

[Christine Animal]

I feel that Frenchie and I are quite different to you ladies in our views as it is we who are trying to be impartial and fair until there is any proof of anything.  We have not insulted anyone.

You are the ones who are taking things into the gutter with your condescending remarks and judgement of others.  I have been quite surprised to see a moderator make such remarks as sleazy and a dirty old man when referring to DSK.  That is certainly lacking respect.

 

[Quillan]

I have to say it did make me laugh, the comments about French morals that is made by some Brits on here. I don't think Brits have much to shout about when it comes to morals and in particular when it comes to members of parliament, members of government, the biggest news group possibly in the world (watch the news tonight to understand my last comment) and more. As to the UK, well we have to use laws to make people behave rather than leave them to use their own sense morality which sadly many don't seem to have anymore. Also the way the UK treats men who are accused of rape even when found innocent is appalling which is why I have always said both parties names should not be reported until after the trial and only then if a verdict or guilty is given. So before any of us Brits start pointing our fingers at other countries like France and question their morality I believe we need to think about how we behave at times and how others may see us.

[idun]

Christine Animal, you have shocked me by your stance on this. You really have. There are certain facts that are indisputable that have come out and yet you appear to see DSK as some sort of victim.

I give in, I really do. Would you let this man be alone with a young woman say your neice or daughter? Haven't you heard everything that has been said on tv by journalists who know him?

I will say that as far as his job went from what I have read, he was respected and good at his job.

[Russethouse]

 No Christine, make no mistake, as far as I am concerned  DSK is the one who behaved as if he were in the gutter.  You are right I personally certainly lack respect for him and anyone else who behaves in that way.

Not to put too fine a point on it, no one has voiced any doubt that a physical liaison took place, - what about the risk of disease, just apart from anything else ? He is married, how considerate of him !

 He is a public figure, no matter what the traditions of  France, when he accepted the job he also accepted that his that his life would be played out on the International stage. 

 He was staying at the Sofitel, an upscale hotel,  my bet is he was was staying there on our dime, not his own.

There are reports that he was warned about his behavior when he took up the post, why was that ? If he was squeaky clean, or at least discreet that wouldn't have happened.

What shocks me is the way another woman's story is dismissed, she may not have an unblemished past, but neither does he.

One rule for her but another for him......

[Russethouse]

Q, I agree, the UK's politicians are no slouches when it comes to affairs etc, at the moment Chis Huhne is under suspicion, however I don't see legions of women defending these people or condoning their actions.

 I suspect that we see it as part of the whole person rather than differentiate between his work and private life, after all if a guy is untrustworthy in his private life, can you trust him 100% in his job ?

 

[pachapapa]

I think I shall just watch Copa de America tonite, rather than waste my pearls of wisdom on a twisted minority of one and a half.[I]

[Clair]

[quote user="Christine Animal"] I have been quite surprised to see a moderator make such remarks as sleazy and a dirty old man when referring to DSK.  That is certainly lacking respect.[/quote]

Being a moderator on the forum does not stop me from having an opinion, nor does it stop me from expressing it.

I do think he is sleazy and a dirty old man.

Edit: and respect has to be earned. It is not granted by a job title.

[5-element]

Diversity of opinions amongst militant socialists: should DSK still aim to be a presidential candidate?

http://www.lemonde.fr/dsk/article/2011/07/04/je-ne-souhaite-plus-que-dsk-se-presente_1544575_1522571.html#ens_id=1522342

Interesting how some feel that, even if it was a trap, he should have known better: just the fact that he fell into it shows he is not fit to lead a country (quite aside from the ethical issues).

 

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

I feel that Frenchie and I are quite different to you ladies in our views as it is we who are trying to be impartial and fair until there is any proof of anything.  We have not insulted anyone.

You are the ones who are taking things into the gutter with your condescending remarks and judgement of others.  I have been quite surprised to see a moderator make such remarks as sleazy and a dirty old man when referring to DSK.  That is certainly lacking respect.

 [/quote]

Well, as far as Frenchie is concerned, that's perhaps not altogether true, Christine.

You see, this topic has reached over a hundred pages. During that time I have made precisely two contributions, the first of which was this:

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I think the British tend to the

belief that respect is something you have to earn, through your

behaviour and your actions.

[/quote]

For which I found myself the recipient of this:

[quote user="Frenchie"]

En français je dirais qu'elle est grillée, n'en déplaise à Mr Pachapapa and Mme Bettysomething ( don't remember ...)

[/quote]

Which I personally found quite insulting.  And don't give me any "oh, I'm sure nothing was meant by it" BS, because I found it insulting, and, as Frenchie has indicated at length elsewhere, it's not what was meant, it's how the person it was directed at felt....  As a matter of record (and I've said this openly, elsewhere on the internet, so it's there for anyone to read) I have certainly not made up my mind regarding Mr Strauss Kahn's guilt OR innocence (and I think you perhaps, just as much as anyone else on this thread, might have demonstrated a touch of "parti pris": correct me if I'm wrong). I have, however, as I'm quite free to do, made up my mind what I think of him as a person. I have not insulted him, nor have I insulted anyone on this thread, unless suggesting that DSK has not earned my respect is insulting.

[Frenchie]

Well; it was not my intention, indeed. Just remembered there was Betty in your username, thus the BS .

I have often been somewhat hurt by what I ve read in this thread, have even reported two postings.

For instance, when Pachapapa wrote , on page 108 , " read the comments by enraged froglets with basic English ... hilarious. " ; I FELT insulted, but in fact , now, I don't care, what matters is that I can express my feelings on here. And yes, it is far from easy for Christine and I, because we are in the minority , because this is an English forum.  

 

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Christine Animal"]

I feel that Frenchie and I are quite different to you ladies in our views as it is we who are trying to be impartial and fair until there is any proof of anything.  We have not insulted anyone.

You are the ones who are taking things into the gutter with your condescending remarks and judgement of others.  I have been quite surprised to see a moderator make such remarks as sleazy and a dirty old man when referring to DSK.  That is certainly lacking respect.

 

[/quote]

And I second this .

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Q, I agree, the UK's politicians are no slouches when it comes to affairs etc, at the moment Chis Huhne is under suspicion, however I don't see legions of women defending these people or condoning their actions.

 I suspect that we see it as part of the whole person rather than differentiate between his work and private life, after all if a guy is untrustworthy in his private life, can you trust him 100% in his job ?

[/quote]

I also feel the same way, anyone in public life puts his or her actions in the public domain regardless of if they are private or public actions.

I am sure many French people have overheard Brits using that well worn phrase in France of "well we wouldn't do it that way in the UK". I get really annoyed when I hear Brits saying this because they are not in the UK they are in France and that's how it is done here. Likewise I don't think it correct for the French to complain when DSK was shown on TV, in the American courtroom, wearing handcuffs. That's how it is in America, it's what they do and whilst you wouldn't get away with this in France it's not right for them to pass judgement on how America runs its justice system. If you commit a crime, or are thought to have committed a crime, in America that's how you are treated. If you think it wrong then don't go there. it really is that simple. I seem to remember that a few Brits have been executed in the far eats for drug smuggling over the years. Many people know the penalty for drug smuggling in these countries is death yet they still go and they still do it yet the British, just like the French in the case of DSK, cry fowl and the British newspapers go to great lengths in saying how unfair it is and that we wouldn't do such a thing in the UK nor treat the person so badly. As I said, you know that's what they do to you if you get caught so don't go there and do it.

My personal belief when I read about this French privacy law thing is yes I can see it as an advantage for say pop, sports and movie stars who want to go on holiday and relax without the press bothering them. What they do, within reason, in their private live has nothing to do with anyone. However in the case of people elected in to a government position then nothing should be secret because as you say they way they behave shows what they are really like and I don't believe for one instant you can keep the two seperate from one another. But then it's France, it's their law and thats how they appear to want it so good luck to them if they believe it works. We can of course express an opinion but that if not an 'attack' on France, it's just an opinion.

 

[Frenchie]

Even if I don't agree with everything you write, I do think this is a balanced way of expressing your ideas.

Thank you ...

[Hoddy]

I think it's possible to divide the DSK problem into three strands.

Firstly there is the criminal case and I am perfectly willing to wait and see what the evidence is before I make a judgement.

Secondly, there is DSK the husband whose conduct, if what is reported about him is true, would be completely unacceptable to me as his wife or even as his friend. There would seem to be an attitude to sex which I find disgusting. That said that is for him and his wife and their friends and I don't really care.

Thirdly, there is DSK the politician. If what is written is true he has been behaving in a way that I would find unacceptable for many years. Much earlier in this thread I criticised the women who are making claims against him. I stand by that. They might have alerted people earlier. Even so if this kind of behaviour is acceptable to the French public then that is fair enough. The trouble is that he is now a politician on an international stage and if he is not capable of understanding or not caring that different rules apply in different countries then that must call his judgement into question.

Hoddy

[Russethouse]

Very well put, Hoddy.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Hoddy"]The trouble is that he is now a politician on an international stage and if he is not capable of understanding or not caring that different rules apply in different countries then that must call his judgement into question. Hoddy[/quote]

In the unlikely event of him running for President of France and in the even more unlikely event of him winning it would beg the question what his foreign policies would be if he has no understanding of other countries culture and differences. I wonder in particular what his relations would be like with America, now that would be interesting.

[pachapapa]

Selected from my New York Times morning e-mail.

Worth a read, definitely.

Well for most people!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05nocera.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212

You received this message because you signed up for NYTimes.com's Today's Headlines newsletter. As a member of the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy.

[pachapapa]

[quote user="Richard51"]PPP - you appear to be upset by "amoral immorality". In my book amoral equals not moral, immorality equals not moral. Therefore I assume you are upset by the assumption that the morals over sexual exploits of males in France, and other European countries (possibly Italy!) are perhaps less than in England (UK).

All I can say is that whilst morals, whatever that means, of individuals are possibly the same, I can't envisage the situation where DSK or the entrenched Italian leader could survive in the politics of the UK.

Your other posts on this thread seem, I think, to agree with this. I believe that its the differences in the developed "systems" rather than the morals of  individuals within that make the difference. Perhaps the less "moral" in the UK see this and either don't go into politics or keep their heads very low. I could, though, be very naive!

Mr R51
[/quote]

I have a hair!

Would you like to split it?[:P]

[Quillan]

I have just read PPP's link. I have not been really following whats been happening with DSK as I am not particularly interested. What I would like to say having read the link and following the links within the article is that firstly I don't really care who DSK is from a nationality point of view. Secondly, it seems clear to me that some form of sexual activity took place in the hotel involving him and this woman be it consensual or not.

What I find so hard to understand is what must have been going on in this mans mind, doing such a thing, I mean a man of his position in the IMF and being wealthy, surly he must have realised he was leaving himself open to possible blackmail or whatever, he truly is a very stupid individual in this instance if he thought nobody would ever find out. If you then go on and add in to the equation that he is French and was considering running for the presidency of France then the whole thing beggars belief that he could be so stupid. My logic is that this is a good example of exactly why prospective and current politicians in France should not be able to hide behind privacy laws. If this guy could be so stupid to get involved with this woman and do what he did (as I said it is clear something took place be it consensual or not) what other things does he think he could get away with if he ever managed to become president of France. I would love for somebody to simply and clearly explain to me how France benefits in a case like this from these privacy laws.

[Richard51]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Selected from my New York Times morning e-mail.

Worth a read, definitely.

Well for most people!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05nocera.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212

You received this message because you signed up for NYTimes.com's Today's Headlines newsletter. As a member of the TRUSTe privacy program, we are committed to protecting your privacy.

[/quote]

Excellent article PPP.

"To judge by his recent writings, Bernard-Henri Lévy prefers to live in a

country where the elites are rarely held to account, where crimes

against women are routinely excused with a wink and a nod and where

people without money or status are treated like the nonentities that the

French moneyed class believe they are."

Mrs R51

[Chancer]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

Chancer, Did your father hold a position of trust funded by the tax payers of several nations ?

Did he have liaisons where it was unclear whether the woman was a prostitute or not ?

Did he sleep with women who answered to another man ?

[/quote]

I am unable to answer your questions RH.

In fact I am surprised that you asked given my previous posting.

"my father whoever he may have been"

From what I understand DSK enjoys the company of women and has a liberal marriage, it seems clear he is a man with a healthy sex drive, he is alleged to have propositioned female colleaugues over the years and has quite probably used prostitutes (the oldest profession in the world), none of this shocks me or makes me think that he is guilty of the alleged offence or incpapble/unsuitable of doing the job that he did.

I am delighted that Christine Lagarde has been chosen as the remplacement, I have a lot of respect for her for her intelligence and drive, I wouldnt give a stuff if she were the female equivalent of DSK or even more extreme, any more than I would alow her political leanings to influence my approval of her competence.

Many men the world over use prostitutes, in many countries it is legalised, they offer a valuable service, the majority of people meet their partners be they partners for life or for a cinq à sept at work, many female journalists exploit their sexuality with important political and business figures like DSK.

 I certainly wouldnt say that all or even many females from French African countries offer themselves to men but some certainly do, several have to me since I have lived in France, one a cleaner at the eye hospital copied my home phone number from the records to contact me offering me her services à domicile, she knew that she could be sacked for just contacting me and begged me to say nothing.

[Richard51]

And you think all the above is laudable, Chancer????   I can see why you love life in France [:@]

Mrs R51

[Frenchie]

[quote user="Chancer"]

From what I understand DSK enjoys the company of women and has a liberal marriage, it seems clear he is a man with a healthy sex drive, he is alleged to have propositioned female colleaugues over the years and has quite probably used prostitutes (the oldest profession in the world), none of this shocks me or makes me think that he is guilty of the alleged offence or incpapble/unsuitable of doing the job that he did.

ABSOLUTELY !

[/quote]