The decline of Town centres

[NormanH]

http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-20h/2014/commerce-le-desert-du-centre-ville-de-beziers-8358444.html

Only three years ago there were numerous attractive boutique style shops...now they are closing rapidly.

[YCCMB]

I'm rather surprised this is considered to be a new, or recent phenomenon in France. Most UK town centres are dying rapidly. Business rates are so high that it's difficult for small independent shops to make any profit. Perhaps business rates aren't quite as high in France, but I would imagine with social charges etc., that there are few small shops able to keep going.

What's great in the UK, but I suspect almost out of the question in France, is the rise of pop-up shops. Gives lots of small businesses the chance to take over empty shop premises for (usually) a token payment for a limited period, and keeps high streets looking a lot more "occupied". I was involved in one for a couple of months over Christmas and it was a win:win for the landlords and for us. 15 of us had a shop for 2 months at a cost of £40 each.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]I'm rather surprised this is considered to be a new, or recent phenomenon in France. Most UK town centres are dying rapidly. Business rates are so high that it's difficult for small independent shops to make any profit. Perhaps business rates aren't quite as high in France, but I would imagine with social charges etc., that there are few small shops able to keep going.

What's great in the UK, but I suspect almost out of the question in France, is the rise of pop-up shops. Gives lots of small businesses the chance to take over empty shop premises for (usually) a token payment for a limited period, and keeps high streets looking a lot more "occupied". I was involved in one for a couple of months over Christmas and it was a win:win for the landlords and for us. 15 of us had a shop for 2 months at a cost of £40 each.
[/quote] I suspect that this is mainly a SE England phenomenon. Here in Wiltshire high street shops are vanishing to be replaced by charity shops, cafes, estate agents and betting shops. There are some old established shops surviving but they decreasing every year.

 

[YCCMB]

You're probably right, Rabbie, but it's spreading. A quick look at some of the pop-up "finder" sites shows opportunities available in the South West (Chard) and Moreton-in-Marsh, as well as Poulton.

[richard51]

Not sure how this applies to French city centres, but in UK these pop-up shops, giving a return of £600 pounds for 2 months over christmas, are hardly going to revive declining city centres. Unless they are in "historic" areas, any city centres hoping to bring better fortune should knock down the slums and either create open space or build new shopping complexes. Outside  the complexes there should also be renewed residential areas on brown field sites. Budding enterprises can always sell their wares in the local markets.

As an amusing aside (for me anyway), a little while ago my youngest son broke his mobile phone in the UK. I went to a stall in the indoor market of our local city centre which is underneath a 20 yr old shopping centere  and they suggested that I visited their "repair" shop just outside the market in a old terraced shop. They could not fix it, but suggested a repair shop the other side of the city centre (again a dilapidated building). They decided that it was beyond economic repair and offered a reconditioned one for £60 which I accepted. They could not process my card and so they sent me to the shop 2 doors away in the same dilapidated terrace that had a machine that could process my card. This was duly processed and my youngest son now has a mobile phone similar to the one that he broke.

I'm sure that in Perigueux, the equivalent city centre for our French home, with its markets, the process is a lot simpler. If not then certainly more enjoyable to walk around.

[PaulT]

Is the decline of the city centre shops due to two reasons:

Car parking - when car ownership was low then people took public transport in to the centre, did their shopping and then used public transport home, great fun if you wanted a heavy and or large item.

Now car ownership is high and in some areas public transport is reduced. People therefore go shopping in their cars. Very often the city car parks will be full meaning driving around until you find one with a space and having found it the charge is very high.

Out of town car parks are large and normally have spaces and if not free have low charges.

The shops - the small ones can only carry small limited stocks so will you actually be able to get what you want.

The out of town shops are normally large chains carrying large stocks of a wide variety of items. There is also the perception that these large chains are cheap. It also seems that there are the likes of McDonald etc present so the children get a 'treat'.

In addition, the large chains want large premises which the traditional small city centre shops do not offer, so unless a new city centre shopping complex is built providing them with large premises the answer is to build on a brown field site.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="richard51"]Not sure how this applies to French city centres, but in UK these pop-up shops, giving a return of £600 pounds for 2 months over christmas, are hardly going to revive declining city centres. Unless they are in "historic" areas, any city centres hoping to bring better fortune should knock down the slums and either create open space or build new shopping complexes. Outside  the complexes there should also be renewed residential areas on brown field sites. Budding enterprises can always sell their wares in the local markets.

[/quote]

It's not the norm. Google and you will see. Many pop-ups in London and the suburbs charge up to £3K per week. We were lucky. And we were in a shopping complex. Interestingly, my first-hand experience from customer feedback suggests that they (the customers) would have been more than happy to see our shop and similar ones being there on a more permanent basis, and ALL (or all, if you prefer) our customers (yes, all) appeared unfazed by having to pay cash for what they purchased, as we didn't have credit card facilities. I suppose it makes an enormous difference if you're selling something that people want to buy, as opposed to unlocking mobile phones. Unlike (I suspect) France, many commercial landlords are realising that any income is better than none, and it's better to make a small contribution to the overheads and business rates etc., than to be sitting on an empty unit. The one we used has been empty for well over 2 years. We're going back in for 2 months over the summer, and again next Christmas, subject to the unit remaining unlet.

Many budding enterprises can't sell their wares in the local market, BTW. (or btw, if you prefer)

PaulT, totally agree. People are being priced out of the high streets because of ridiculously high parking charges. It's crazy in some places. One car park in Windsor (council-run) which happens to be one of the easiest to find (so thus attracts a lot of out-of-town visitors and tourists) charges £4 an hour. Not only that, but the normal discount for local residents doesn't apply. Of course, in Windsor there just aren't any vacant shop units or pound shops or pop-ups, because there's a ready and constant stream of shoppers 365 days a year.

[Hoddy]

In the UK it's not just the SE and it's not just a recent thing either. I first noticed when many cattle markets were closed down in the 90s because of BSE. There are some love small towns around these parts which seem almost entirely given over to charity except the touristy ones like Matlock which have lots of antique shops.

Sarlat, out nearest town in France has had problems for a few too. There is a real tension between the ordinary everyday shops, like the butcher and non-chain shoe and clothing shops and the tourist ones. The local council wanted to introduce a very high tax rise, but the locals, who depend on the small shops all year round put up a spirited objection. As someone already said, car parking seems to be a problem in both countries.

Hoddy

[Frederick]

Parking is a problem made worse now by patrolling  roof top camera cars.. Our biggest nearest UK shopping is Bournemouth  2.2 million net profit from parking fines in 12 months .  We try our best to avoid the place and shop in out of town purpose build places with free parking . We do visit our  local shops a few miles away in Ringwood .There is no free parking  and 8 charity shops  ... What I like about shopping in France in the towns we go it is its hassle free  much more relaxing and no parking machine clock to have to keep in mind and threats of tickets !

[Chancer]

There are magasins ephéméres in France (probably got the accents wrong) its a growth business,  they are profitable and sustainable but critically only through keeping on the move, they profit from dirt cheap short term rents on very good locations with great footfall, they spend next to nothing on shopfitting which all goes with them when they move on.

Some of them only open for a few months of the year, in the toursit season or before Christmas.

Behind this is a slick organisation that holds no stock and has no premises other than a bureau somewhere, probably a kitchen table.

My local town is full of what appear to be magasins ephéméres but in fact they are always new businesses, doomed to failure within a few months, they seem to spend all their investment money on leasing new cars for each of the partners, buying stock that doesnt sell and sticking up apalling handwritten signs in the window that look like a toddler has created.

[Judith]

"car parking seems to be a problem in both countries."

As I see it, the problem is that people will not walk to the shops from a car park (in either country)..  Here in France, our nearest bigger town has plenty of parking, free, but about 5-10 mins away from the main drag.  Except for market days when it can be more problematical, I can always get parked there ... whereas the nearer parks are full (I suspect with workers, filling up the spaces when they arrive for work).  This is also evident in the supermarkets - loads of spaces away from the entry doors, but still everyone tries to park as close as possible to the doors, even when they use a trolley to take the shopping back to the car.

In our own little town I never take the car as I can walk everywhere within 10 mins.  I only take the car to the (walkable) supermarket if I need more than my trolly can carry, or if I am on my way out or back from somewhere else.  But I know people who live close to me who take the car to the high street which is less than a 5 min walk, no matter how slowly you walk.

Because of this, car parking charges do seem to be a council's favoured way of raising money, and I am really not surprised ....

[idun]

Life changes, our habits change.

When we moved to our french village I made sure that I shopped at the local shops regularly, in spite of paying a little more. That was thirty odd years ago, and some people just would not do that. It is a choice that we all make.

Ofcourse shops closed in spite of the village getting bigger. Some still remain, but I have a feeling once a couple of the shopkeepers retire, then these shop fronts will return to being homes.

Same same in my local town in France and the cities too that I know well. Some units change regularly and some big chains close their shops. Do we, should we, get city centres to be dynamic again, I do not know. Market forces will always dictate, as they always have.

[Frecossais]

"The local council wanted to introduce a very high tax rise, but the

locals, who depend on the small shops all year round put up a spirited

objection. As someone already said, car parking seems to be a problem in both countries."

I have always thought of the French as a fairly militant, volatile people, and I have been wondering what it will take before they raise "a spirited objection" to the punitive tax regime of the present government, who seem to have nothing much to offer, but take plenty.

As a matter of interest,  (and because I don't live there all the time) are there any folk in France who benefit from M Hollande's policies?

[Thibault]

The French authorities seem wedded to the idea of commercial centres, regardless of the damage they do to other shops in town/village centres. Near to our French house is a pretty little town with a large and imposing chateau and park which attracts many visitors. Yet all around, throughout the town are many closed down and boarded up shops. The council has taken to puttling huge photographs in the windows of these shops with images from past years showing them as vibrant enterprises.

It has been like that for years. Two years ago, the local authority took and refurbished a small row of shops close to the chateau and set them up as artists/handicraft type shops with the odd cafe. The rest of the town was tidied up with some flower planters and newly made pavements etc.

On the edge of the town, however, is a large commercial centre to where all the food, DIY, florists, cafes etc have decamped.

No wonder the town is struggling.

[PaulT]

But is notthis what 'progress' is about- change.

Centuries ago shoes would have been madeby the local cobbler - now they are made in large factories.

Carpenters would have made furniture locally, now it is made in factories.

etc. etc.

We are seeing the latest progress, away from the corner shop / small town shop to the large superstores. Indeed, some of these are being replaced by progress to those of us who search the Internet and order goods, e it a book, computer, washing machine etc online and then the courier company delivers it from a vast central warehouse - thus meaning the end for the likes of Comet in the UK.

[YCCMB]

Hence "showrooming" a recent shortlisted word for OED word of the year....

[Hoddy]

According to the Sunday Times today Skipton is the best place to live in the UK.

It has a high street full of local shops.

Hoddy

[woolybanana]

And not a decent super/hypermarket in sight?

[Hoddy]

I had to google to find that they have Morrisons, Sainsburys and Tescos.

Used to know the area well because y late husband came from a little village nearby. Maybe they are just as behind the times as they used to be. On my first visit there was a hiring fair for farm labourers to work for the summer. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Hoddy

[Frederick]

[quote user="Hoddy"]I had to google to find that they have Morrisons, Sainsburys and Tescos.

Used to know the area well because y late husband came from a little village nearby. Maybe they are just as behind the times as they used to be. On my first visit there was a hiring fair for farm labourers to work for the summer. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

Hoddy[/quote]

Does the Sainsbury's still have sawdust on the floor and do they still slap half a pound if butter together with two butter pats ?

[Hoddy]

I wouldn't know Frederick, as I said I had to google to find they had one. I imagine that they have the same standards in Skipton that they have everywhere else.

[Judith]

I took (and passed) my driving test in Skipton many moons ago. It's a town on the edge of the Pennines, with not a huge amount of close-by competition, (Bradford, Leeds, Harrogate, the largest big towns nearby a good trip away), a weekly (at least) market, and roads which are (in some directions) not all that easy to navigate ... I'm sure that it has suffered from some out of town development, but maybe it is its location - on the foothills of the Peninnes, the Aire Gap and the gateway to the Dales, bisected by river and canal ... nowhere large and nice a flat to build large out of town commercial centre.  And maybe, too, the town council, has been sensible and not allowed such applications ...

[Gardengirl]

[quote user="Judith"]"car parking seems to be a problem in both countries."

As I see it, the problem is that people will not walk to the shops from a car park (in either country)..  Here in France, our nearest bigger town has plenty of parking, free, but about 5-10 mins away from the main drag.  Except for market days when it can be more problematical, I can always get parked there ... whereas the nearer parks are full (I suspect with workers, filling up the spaces when they arrive for work).  This is also evident in the supermarkets - loads of spaces away from the entry doors, but still everyone tries to park as close as possible to the doors, even when they use a trolley to take the shopping back to the car.

In our own little town I never take the car as I can walk everywhere within 10 mins.  I only take the car to the (walkable) supermarket if I need more than my trolly can carry, or if I am on my way out or back from somewhere else.  But I know people who live close to me who take the car to the high street which is less than a 5 min walk, no matter how slowly you walk.

Because of this, car parking charges do seem to be a council's favoured way of raising money, and I am really not surprised ....

[/quote]

Car parking is dirt cheap in our little town in the Gard. The first 90 minutes are free, then it's 50 cents per hour, apart from 90 minutes free parking at lunchtimes. Overnight is also free and two large car parks on the outskirts of town and another close to the centre are permanently free too. Residents can have a card allowing totally free parking all the time, but locals don't really need to pay if you choose your times or car park. However, Wednesday and Saturday mornings are still chaotic due to the large numbers of people arriving for the markets and traffic jams ensue. Like Judith, we don't take the car into town which is a 5 minute walk away (not allowing for kisses and handshakes!), but sometimes park on the way to or from somewhere else to load up with a little shopping. We also have a tiny Carrefour City about 2 minutes from home for when we forget milk or other necessity, plus 2 more mini markets in town - a car isn't a necessity for people who don't want to go far from town, and even then bus fares to Nimes etc are only 1,50€ per journey.

Keeping car parking charges low is a really good way to ensure that the shops and markets are well-supported. However, there's a constant turn around of owners of cafés, restaurants, gift shops etc - it's always interesting when we return in September after a couple of months in England to see which shops etc have changed hands after the tourists have pretty much left town by September. But business premises generally don't stay vacant for long, despite a MacDonalds opening just outside town, plus two big supermarkets on the edge too. Prices in town are pretty high, and many locals go into Nimes to buy basics like shoes etc rather than pay our town prices, although prices for a coffee, glass of wine etc are very reasonable, IMO.

Here in our town in southern England, parking in our nearest large town

is very expensive, £3 for 2 hours, then becomes extremely high if you

want to park for several hours - I usually make sure to stay under 2

hours! Parking prices never seem to put people off, as car parks are

usually full and there are traffic jams due to the numbers of people

wanting to get in and out of town. Our nearest small town provides free

parking for 2 hours at Waitrose which is right in the centre, so people

usually seem to have time to spare to use small local shops. A brand new barber and bike shop have opened in the last few weeks, so small businesses are very keen to move in, although we do seem to have quite a number of charity shops now.

[YCCMB]

I don't know about anybody (or anywhere) else, but I find that, locally, I can usually park for free if I go at the right time, or to the right place. In my two local UK towns, there are places where free parking is readily available, but unless you're local you can't find it. In Windsor, we get a resident's card which generally entitles us to a certain time free, and discounted parking the rest of the time, apart from in a few tourist hotspots. However, I can walk into town if I have time, so it's not a huge problem. As I already mentioned, the town centre is thriving and there aren't really any empty retail units, and recent attempts to open a pound shop met with stiff opposition and eventual refusal. Of course, as a thriving tourist town, shops rely on non-residents who obviously boost the local economy and spend quite freely.

A mere 2 miles away, Slough is a fairly run-down shopping centre, and there are at least four pound (or 99p) shops, a good few charity shops and a plethora of those shops that seem to sell plastic storage boxes and cheap household goods. Parking is as expensive as Windsor, if not dearer, and there are no resident discounts, but on the other hand, there are at least a couple of free car parks, or places where the first hour's parking is free, and all the pay-and-display street parking is free on Sundays.

As I need a resident permit in the UK to park outside my own house, I do appreciate the luxury of parking for free (and freely) in France, although given the population density I think once again I'm comparing apples with tomatoes. I've seen the difficulty of parking in Paris or Bordeaux, and that starts to border on being a fair comparison.

[idun]

 I have been to three towns in the last couple of years that have what I would say have retained decent shops in the centre. Skipton, Northallerton and Yarm, all seemed to have more decent shops to see and less of the other stuff like bookies and charity shops than other towns I usually visit.

Re walking to the shops, I wish that I could still walk any sort of a distance, but I cannot any more. I do envy those that can.