Winter fuel tax for expats here.

[YCCMB]

[quote user="Rabbie"]

Let's not forget that any student loan debt still outstanding is written off after 30 years IIRC which means that they will have about 20  years without any more repayments to build up their pension fund. With regard to child allowance I do not find it unreasonable that people earning over £60,000 pa  no longer receive this. Most of us managed to bring up our children well on much lower incomes even allowing for inflation. It is not compulsory to put your child into private education - there are some excellent state schools.[/quote]

At the moment, the student debt is, eventually, written off after 30 years. So, on average, you will no longer have that millstone round your neck by the time you reach about 52. Now, hands up how many people on here were actually retired by that age?? The premise, by the way, that student debt will be written off at some point, takes no account of the fact that it is deducted at source from salary once you earn above a certain threshold, neither does it make any provision for the strong likelihood - already mooted - that the Government will, at any time, increase the interest rates on this loan, so again, "sensible planning" is likely to be thwarted by random increases. Oh, and let's not overlook another recently mooted plan to actually penalise students who pay their debt off early, by making them pay a sort of early cancellation penalty!!

I have no idea what the point is about private education, nor do I understand its relevance.

I'm sure a lot of today's young people will be absolutely delighted with the generosity of the Government and today's pensioners, who feel that it's some sort of gift to them to allow them 20 years without the burden of student debt to build up a pension fund. Again, how many people on here only saved for 20 years for their pension? And how many really think that, by the time this next generation reach retirement age (if such a thing still exists by then) a mere 20 years of saving will given them sufficient return to be able to enjoy the comfort that many (not all) current pensioners do? I bet very few of them indeed will be able to enjoy a mortgage-free early retirement in France, or any other foreign country. Most of them will be mortgage-free, sure, because they'll probably never have enjoyed the option of owning their own home! But most of today's pensioners will be long gone by then, so why should they worry?

[Rabbie]

[quote user="idun"]

Are older people usually so whingeing about things? And so, what I perceive as, greedy? IF so, I hopes someone shoots me before I get much older.

[/quote]This seems to be a generalisation and like all generalisations is only partly true. Some older people are whingers - some are not and bear the ups and downs of life with fortitude. Some old people are greedy and some are not. Many younger people are also greedy and want as much as they can get from the state and from their job. Just look at bankers if you want an example.  Greed seems to be a basic ingredient in human nature and without it perhaps the human race would not have progressed as much as it has if you can call it progress.

No apologies for going a little off topic as we have now reached page 4 of this thread and the universal law of forums is having its effect[:)]

[Quillan]

Well in some ways I can sympathise with those that have that attitude because what they were sold and what they got were two different things. My father, a rank socialist, was very proud of the social and health care system which he believed he helped create my voting socialist. He would often tell me it was a system that would look after you from the cradle to the grave when you needed help the most. Unfortunately in the real world it does not happen which was a create shock when my father became terminally ill. He, like many of his generation saved, bought his own house, bought a car only in later life and tried to raise his family the best he could never drawing on any assistance from the state. Because of this he was actually penalised during his illness because he had too much money, not much by others standards but by the state. So my father was in that group that worked all his life, paid into the system, saved and believed he was entitled to whatever the state would give him when he got old.

My generation has a similar attitude, similar but not the same. Perhaps it is the better education we had, technology etc that has helped us have a wider view of the society around us, our roll in it and what it can do for us. Social care, pensions and the healthcare system in the UK needs a lot more money injected into it but the problem is where do you get the money. Tax the bankers you hear people cry, bankers well they must be rich. They either are not told or decide not to believe that bankers pay tax and a lot of it. Bonuses are taxed and at the highest rate but they escape social contributions. The simplest way of dealing with this would to be to do away with NI and add 13% on to the tax rate, even better double the tax rate and do away with NI. Of course you then have to increase companies’ tax to pay for the employer's NI contribution.

I am of the strong belief that we (society) should help those that are not as well off as the rest of us. Yes they may have had low paid jobs and did not contribute as much in taxes etc as those that are well paid but they are the most vulnerable group. Help should not also be dished out as a right and whilst I can see the point of those like my father I don't agree with them. I would like to see all benefits means tested but properly and fairly means tested not like what has happened with those claiming invalidity benefit which is a scandal.

Unfortunately this WFA was badly implemented from the beginning. It was as others have said bout in as a top up to the existing state pension when it should have been something quite separate. This means that those that are entitled see it as a right regardless of how big their pension income is which because of the way it was implemented is of course correct.

Clearly there are a lot of people who do not need this payment but there are some that do. The fairness way to go about this is to means test, raise the amount to a more realistic one (taking in to account the massive rise in energy prices) and pay it to those that really need it. We are only taking about 55p per day over a year which to many is nothing but to a few makes a big difference particularly as it is paid as a lump sum when they really need extra money.

We need to move away from the "I am entitled and it is my right" mentality and progress to the "do I really need it" mentality. It is the compasionate and morally right thing to do.

[idun]

Yes, there are people who are generous and unselfish....... simply not enough of them.

[YCCMB]

So, can anyone please explain, as I ask for the second time, how this WFA is supposed to be a top-up to the existing state pension, when entitlement to it comes in some 5 years before an individual reaches state pension age?

[nomoss]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]So, can anyone please explain, as I ask for the second time, how this WFA is supposed to be a top-up to the existing state pension, when entitlement to it comes in some 5 years before an individual reaches state pension age?
[/quote]

 

For ourselves the connection between the Winter Fuel Payment and Pensions was made in 1997.

We, and many others whose OAP is an important income source, were listening for news of pension increases that year, which usually corresponded with the cost of living increase.

The announcement was made that there would be no increase in pension, but a Winter Fuel Payment was being introduced to avoid the hardship this might cause. This replaced Cold Weather Payments, which were means tested payments to pensioners.

That, to us, is and was a supplement to pensions. The bad news was that, as non residents, we wouldn't get it.

I presume it was tied to age for political reasons, as GB had said he couldn't afford to increase pensions.

At that time women retired at 60, not 65, the payment was per household, and if the age had been set at 65 women living alone would have been penalised.

 

 

[Judith]

[quote user="idun"]

 then the french pension in hand is slightly less than most people get from the state in the UK.

[/quote]

I get a full state pension, in my own right, which I worked for all my life - and it is not as high as the monthly figure you quote.

Nor do I benefit from a huge company pension ...

Please do not assume that UK pensioners are better off - it is ONLY because most of us have suffered to save in the past, and that we no longer have large mortgages (not all, but probably the majority who sensibly stayed put and paid it off when they could, and did without many other things, included expensive foreign holidays so that it could be done) ) that we are now able to reap teh benefit.

As for the WFA - given as already said to improve the lot of pensioners without increasing the pension pot requirements - whilst it remains a benefit to all UK citizens over 60, all UK citizens who qualify should get it - wherever they live.

[Rabbie]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]So, can anyone please explain, as I ask for the second time, how this WFA is supposed to be a top-up to the existing state pension, when entitlement to it comes in some 5 years before an individual reaches state pension age?

[/quote]Presumably for the same reasons that you get free NHS prescriptions and eyetests at 60.

It is not for us ordinary mortals to question the wisdom? of Whitehall[6]

[Russethouse]

Well Betty I don't feel as if I need to walk in sack cloth and ashes because of the younger generation........I remember the mortgage rate being nearly 16% when we got our first house and at that time my parents were getting decent interest on their savings.....now we have no mortgage because we worked hard to pay it off, the interest rate is next to nothing and our hard won savings attract a very poultry sum indeed.

Also both me and my OH often had more than one job on the go so we could afford a house etc....these days younger people tend to roll their eyes at the thought of a couple hours more work.....

Interest rates are being pegged and its the savers that are suffering.......

I think a lot of the problem was Mr Blair wanting every child and their dog to go to University which was clearly not appropriate for some of the people concerned, the country couldn't afford it and now others are paying the price, in addition the idea that you 'must' go to Uni has taken root.......

[YCCMB]

Nor would I expect you to, RH...Didn't you mention not long ago, however, that your daughters - or perhaps one of them, I can't recall - are still living with you?

When we first bought, mortgage interest rates were hovering about the 17% mark, too. Mind you, on a mortgage of around £20K that didn't seem too bad.. Nowadays £20K generally isn't enough for a deposit!

Some younger people may indeed balk at having more than one job. Many who DO have one job are working much longer hours, though, than I seem to remember doing at 20-ish. Nowadays the hours stipulated on your contract are around 40, but woe betide your career prospects in a lot of jobs if you only work the hours your contract stipulates!

I'm fortunate in that my children don't appear to have a jobsworth outlook. Both would rather work their socks off at anything available than claim benefits. The one who is still a student is managing to juggle work and studying, earning enough on a self-employed basis to fund himself without recourse to the Bank of Mum and Dad. Most - but certainly not all - of their contemporaries feel the same. Some are happy to live off handouts from the state or their parents. Just like some of every generation.

[idun]

Judith are you really telling me that you do not get about £110 a week in UK state pension, and I'll not even mention the other bits that got added on over the years?????

And if you do, then remember that the french are not paid that figure I quoted, but have stoppages from it, social security payments and CSG etc.And that figure I quoted, may be OTT, because they are tricky with their workings out, the french pensions people are.

So what exchange rate are you using, todays? because these things change and can change a lot.......I've know 1.64, and the average for my first 20 years in France was 1.51 or there abouts, which is about 10ff to the £ which seemed 'right' to me and that little average, makes them about the same.

And the young, well, I feel for the young and I dislike intensely the way they are too often disparaged.

[NickP]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]Nor would I expect you to, RH...Didn't you mention not long ago, however, that your daughters - or perhaps one of them, I can't recall - are still living with you? When we first bought, mortgage interest rates were hovering about the 17% mark, too. Mind you, on a mortgage of around £20K that didn't seem too bad.. Nowadays £20K generally isn't enough for a deposit! .[/quote]

I must say I'm with RH on this, and Betty when you/we borrowed a £20K mortgage at 16 or 17% our wages reflected the house prices at the time so the high percentage was an enormouse body blow, but we got over it. So to say that £20K is not even a deposit now is not comparing like for like. After all my daughter has just taken out a bigger mortgage than I ever thought was possible but she earns huge mounts of money already compared to my pre retirement salary, and I must say that I wasn't badly paid, but don't tell anybody else especially Chancer.  [:D]

[powerdesal]

Idun wrote:-

''Judith are you really telling me that you do not get about £110 a week in UK state pension, and I'll not even mention the other bits that got added on over the years?????''

What ''other bits'' ?

We are talking here about WFA, are there other bits that I am unaware of and can claim?

The only pension I get is the basic UK state pension which I obviously qualified for by virtue of sufficient NI contributions.

My wife gets 60% of that because her record of NI contributions were ''lost'' by HMRC and she was told that she ''did not exist'' ( a long story and now history).

I have no private pension / company pension, only savings made from my own income as it arose.

I feel sorry for the youngsters of today but feel no personal guilt about their plight. My own children (and grandchildren ) are caught up in the financial mess of repaying University fees, attempting to save for a house etc etc. We help where / when we can but such help is obviously limited.

[Russethouse]

I feel sorry for them too, and I worry what will happy to vast number of people who are destined to only ever be able to rent, when they retire because it would take a very generous pension indeed to pay out enough to cover rent in addition to other expenses.......

But the idea that it is all the fault of the generation before doesn't wash with me all the same......

[Pommier]

[quote user="You can call me Betty"]So, can anyone please explain, as I ask for the second time, how this WFA is supposed to be a top-up to the existing state pension, when entitlement to it comes in some 5 years before an individual reaches state pension age?
[/quote]

As far as I can remember, it's to do with sex discrimination. Because women received their pension at 60, there was a complaint made that it was unfair on men and they ought to receive WFA at the same age as women. Complete madness, as it certainly ought not to have ever been paid to people still in well paid full time work.

I can't help but feel that if the UK is in the financial mess the government says it is, with huge cuts to public services etc, then there's a case for saying WFA is only for pensioners who are resident in the UK.

[Hereford]

Exactly right Pommier. We recall that a postman said he should receive WFA at 60 as women did and he won in court - it was originally linked to the then state retirement age. This court ruling - for the age of 60 - has never been changed even though neither women nor men get their OAP at that age.

Like all those who were self employed we only get the basic state pension - no "graduated for example", nor did we have an employer paying in to a scheme for us but had to fund all our own pension provision.   However I resent the implication that we all whinge - we don't as we chose to be self employed and enjoyed the freedom to do things "our way" but it certainly means that our pension income is lower than the majority of people who retired from employment.

We would prefer that the WFA be incorporated into the OAP.

[YCCMB]

Nothing is to do with "fault" or "blame", and if earlier comments were directed at me then I'm as baffled by them as I was with the private schools comment made before.

The fact is, as I have said numerous times on this forum recently, I am appalled by the response of some (not all) pensioners, who seem to believe that they are a special breed with an inalienable right to receive every last penny they are entitled to, in perpetuity, whether they are in genuine need of it or not. All I'm saying is that if these people would remove their heads from up their backsides and look around, they would realise that they've actually done quite well, with an income (from state pensions) which is two and a half times greater than it was in 1977, compared to average wages which have just about doubled since then (slightly giving the lie to NickP's comment, since buying a 20K property in 1977 and buying a 100K property today means that there's been a 5x increase in the cost of a first home versus a 2x increase in average income over the same period...that's not strictly true, as my figures were plucked out of the air in my earlier post, but it's a reasonable figure and 100K is actually well on the low side for Greater London, for example).

It's just really dispiriting to have to listen to (or read) the constant whingeing of self-perceived hard-done-by pensioners, who are already a darned sight better off than most. I was always brought up to both respect and defer to the views and opinions of my seniors, based on their greater life experience and accrued wisdom. I've lost almost all of that respect these days, as it appears there's a hard core of pensioners whose only agenda is looking after themselves. Mostly at the expense of those who will never enjoy the benefits today's pensioners are receiving.

[Russethouse]

When we have a situation that means that if you emigrate to Canada or Australia your pension s pegged at the rate in force on the day you leave then I really do think it should be possible to say that WFA is for UK residence only.....

I know the argument " I paid in so I should get it" but so did people who moved to Australia and Canada in many cases.....

[Judith]

[quote user="idun"]Judith are you really telling me that you do not get about £110 a week in UK state pension, and I'll not even mention the other bits that got added on over the years?????

And if you do, then remember that the french are not paid that figure I quoted, but have stoppages from it, social security payments and CSG etc.And that figure I quoted, may be OTT, because they are tricky with their workings out, the french pensions people are.

So what exchange rate are you using, todays? because these things change and can change a lot.......I've know 1.64, and the average for my first 20 years in France was 1.51 or there abouts, which is about 10ff to the £ which seemed 'right' to me and that little average, makes them about the same.

[/quote]

Idun - I get my UK state pension paid directly into my account here - converted at the rate of the day .... when sent in bulk by HMG paymasters.  Thus I do know what it is each month - and it is considerably less than the figure you stated ... my husband's is a little more -  because he worked longer - but still does not come to your figure.  And for both of us, that includes the extras like the graduated pensions (tiny) that we each contributed to for a short time before they discontinued  it.  And we also  pay tax, CSG etc on it here ....

I am not complaining about how much (or little) I get, nor even does it bother me about WFA - what does bother me is inequality.  As much as I  believe all pensioners should have their pensions uprated wherever they live, whilst the WFA is a universal benefit, it should be given to all who qualify.

And yes, the claiming of WFA at 60, along with free prescriptions etc, is all to do with equality between the sexes. 

[woolybanana]

Hqng on Judith, why are you paying CSG on your UK pension. My understanding is that you dont have to.

[idun]

Judith, beware, you appear to believe that the exchange rates are set in

stone and they are not, not at all. AND that is why it is futile to

compare. IF the exchange rate goes back to say the 2000 figure then you

will have far more than a french state pension.

And  is it sent each month? I thought that the UK gov paid this every four weeks, which is not the same thing at all.

Also, why are you paying CSG etc on it?

Say the french figure is *787€ per month, and they lose approx 8% in payments (not tax), that leaves 724€ per month. If the exhange rate was say 2000's average, then divide by 1.64=£441.48 per month, divide by 4.3 to get a weekly figure £102.67 a week, which is £410 each four weeks.

As I said, you cannot mention exchange rates as if they are in stone. I know that our income could go down radically if we went back to the 1.64, we'd still get X amount of €'s every month and would have to live with it and not compare.

* I realise that that is the lowest figure, but that is what lots of people will get, because they do not earn much.

[Pommier]

French pensioners could also claim the minimum pension (ASPA?) which would top up their income to about €14000 a year for a couple. OK, the government can claw it back on death if they leave more than a smallish amount, but that seems fair.

[andyh4]

[quote user="Russethouse"]When we have a situation that means that if you emigrate to Canada or Australia your pension s pegged at the rate in force on the day you leave then I really do think it should be possible to say that WFA is for UK residence only..... I know the argument " I paid in so I should get it" but so did people who moved to Australia and Canada in many cases.....[/quote]

 

No RH, the argument is that as a member of the EU, the UK has signed up to certain directives which ensure that its citizens living in other parts of the EU have to be treated exactly the same as a citizen in the same circumstances remaining in the UK.

 

Incidentally this is the same directive that ensures that Idun continues to receive a French pension (minus cotisations) and does not get a "Vous avez decidez a foudre le camp".  (sorry cannot put in the accents).

 

And before I am labelled a whingeing greedy pensioner  - I am not in receipt of a pension from the UK and unless there is an enormous change in the rules will never be eligible for WFA.

 

If anyone genuinely believes this is about the UK saving money so that the next generation can benefit, I suggest you look at the total savings and see how many students with a say 60k debt this would cover.

 

This is nothing more than pandering to the media to catch votes.

[idun]

 Not sure if that is exactly the case, as I know people who have returned to the maghreb and got their french pension. And the maghreb is not the EU, is it. Or maybe that is simply because of old french colonialism.

And if that had been the case, we wouldn't have left France. Still as our circumstances were 'particular', I would have made waves about the unfairness. And I shall not discuss the particularities of our french lives on here.[:D]

[idun]

Andy, really, I never was going to have a lightening strike. I do believe you meant fou tre, which is good old french swearing. Split it up as I reckon it is rude enough to have xxxx's put on here![Www]