New Builds - who sets the annual charges

[Evianers]

Inevitably we shall have to move into an apartment as we grow older. These cost an astronomical price around here = we are talking 750,000 - 850,000 {more than houses actually} so we do not want to saddle ourselves with extremely high annual charges on top of the purchase price - NB have seen one apartment with the annual charges set at 5000!!!!!

So the question is, who is it that actually sets these charges, and how? On what are they based? Obviously communal lighting, lift, probably cleaning, and maintenance must come into the equation but can one also put in an offer to purchase and have the charges lowered? Cheeky or what? But we are asking this question before, and not after the event as we have been caught unawares sometimes in the past[8-)]

Thank you everyone

[nomoss]

As I understand from apartments we have owned, communal charges are agreed by the committee elected by the co-proprietors, advised by the syndic, and proposed, and voted on by the co-proprietors, at the AGM.

They are not negotiable on purchase; they are decided by the co-proprietors, and are the responsibility of the prospective owner, and the seller has no influence over them. It may be possible to proportion them over the year when buying by agreement with the seller.

Edit: In the case of a new build, the apartments may not all be sold, so that fixed charges may be divided by a small number of owners, resulting in the communal payments being unusually high.

Another pitfall is that there is a tendency for absentee owners not to pay their share of the overheads, but as these are generated by bills which have to be paid, the burden falls on the other owners to pay them.

You should get a copy of any and all the agreements and rules affecting the property before you buy. I suggest getting a Notaire to advise you on this.

[alittlebitfrench]

700-850 k for a flat in Evian les Bains ???

That caught my attention. LOL

Just looked on Le Bon Coin and by golly you are right.

That is near Paris prices.

For a new build, I would not pay more than 1000-1200 euros per year.

In fact, that is the max I would pay on any flat.

Be careful here. So many factors to take into consideration.

[idun]

The Haute Savoie has always been very pricey, especially areas so close to Switzerland like Evian. Remember the suisse sometimes cannot afford to live in Switzerland anymore and the Haute Savoie is a cheaper option.

In spite of a fast lane at the border for trans frontier folk, the queues at rush hour are horrendous.

[suein56]

Evianers wrote : Inevitably we shall have to move into an apartment as we grow older. These cost an astronomical price around here = we are talking 750,000 - 850,000

LBOF wrote : Just looked on Le Bon Coin and by golly you are right

Gosh .. although I am familiar with looking at LBC (esp for property) I could not find any apparts at those prices .. perhaps I didn't look for long enough ?

I suppose it depends on what you are looking for .. but a very spacious 3/4 bed appart with spacious bathroom and shower room for 480 000€ or 560 000€ seemed fairly reasonable for the desired location.

There were many of similar sizes at the lot lower price of 280 000€ and upwards.

Which area of Evian are you looking at ?

[idun]

Yes, as far as I am aware there will usually be some rented appts in a new build block, and the charges, well, can be negociated later by a committee, I am pretty sure that someone on french news had taken it in hand where she lived and had got the maintenance and general charge reduced.

Pretty sure that it was on France 2 journal de 20h in the last ten days and you can usually see old episodes on the tv5 monde web site. Maybe worth plough through them.

[nomoss]

[quote user="alittlebitfrench"]700-850 k for a flat in Evian les Bains ???

That caught my attention. LOL

Just looked on Le Bon Coin and by golly you are right.

That is near Paris prices.

For a new build, I would not pay more than 1000-1200 euros per year.

In fact, that is the max I would pay on any flat.

Be careful here. So many factors to take into consideration.[/quote]

I assumed the OP is talking about a bit more than a "flat".

I envisaged something like at least half a floor of a building, with all facilities and services included, which implies a bit more than just a communal entrance and stairs..

We paid around 1000€ a year in community charges for a studio with a communal pool and gardens near Leucate, on the poor man's Rivière [:D]

[NormanH]

The local taxes on a flat can be higher than those on a house as I found in the one I have just sold.

The "charges" for the co-propriété are made up of several things.

If the 'syndic' is a professional there are the administration fees which can be very high, then there are maintenance costs (servicing lifts etc) and general cleaning and grounds maintenance

see here:

https://droit-finances.commentcamarche.com/contents/640-le-calcul-des-charges-de-copropriete

Even with a 'syndic' bénévole who was one of the other owners my charges for 2018 in a small flat were 130€ a month as we had some repairs to be done, but that wouldn't affect a new build.

[Evianers]

https://www.leboncoin.fr/ventes_immobilieres/1529934247.htm/

[richard51]

With due respect, can't you get a much better deal elsewhere?

[alittlebitfrench]

[quote user="Evianers"]https://www.leboncoin.fr/ventes_immobilieres/1529934247.htm/[/quote]

I like that one.....a lot !!! Especially if you get the flat overlooking the lake and the mountains. Bliss !

In terms of charges, the promoter will tell what the charges will be even before it is built.

Remember also, with new builds the Notaire fees will be much much much lower. At that price level that is a big consideration over older flats.

Also, they should be built to better eco standards. So you should save on heating. Although the flat is facing North !!!

Go see the promoter. That is the sort of thing I would buy when I get old and losing my hair...many years from now.

Excessive charges (5000 k euros pa) will be appartements/apartment blocks for the elderly I should imagine. !! I would stay clear of those.

[Lehaut]

We have owned two flats in France, one we rented, out, the second we bought two years ago to move into, for the very reasons the OP outlined. I am on the Conseil Syndical (CS) for the second one and can confirm that the AGM and the CS/Syndic set the annual charges. In my experience there is no leeway to reduce your contribution (providing you do not change what you have bought). It is closely controlled via, for example, the surface area of your flat, the floor you live on for lift charges, even the area of your under ground or surface parking. Some of our neighbour who have lived in the complex for years don't fully understand how their charges are assessed.

When we sold the first flat and bought the second, our notaire was a great help in making sure we avoided some work and maintenance charges associated with the buildings. For example, giving the prospective buyers pouvoir for the AGM rather than us (they had signed the compromis, not the Acte de Vente). This meant that any works (re-roofing/ enduite etc) voted in at that AGM would be visited on the new owners, not us. The reverse for the flat we were buying.

If you are buying an older appartment, you should always go back through at least 3 years Compte Rendu for the AGMs. Often expensive, but necessary work, will be voted down at previous AGMs. This will give you an indication of what will eventually need to be done and possibly get a reduction in the price of the flat.

In the first flat we "inherited" one occupant who had not paid charges for many years. After about 10 years the (third) Syndic managed to get the flat sold to pay the charges. They were never visited on the rest of the occupants, the debt was just carried over year after frustrating year!

You should always go to the AGMs. The one in St Malo where we had our first flat was a real experience, tears, screams, people walking out, shouting and on one occasion the professional Syndic refusing to have the building as a client anymore and giving us 3 month notice!

[NormanH]

I was also on the Conseil Syndical for the flat I have just sold and the AGMS were a nightmare experience.[:-))]

That looks a wonderful place Shiela. I am not at all jealous [6]

[nomoss]

Lehaut's post reminded me of again of the problems and expense we had with our last flat.

One big one was that one owner had not paid any contributions for over ten years, and the Syndic had done nothing except list them as a creditor in the accounts.

After getting rid of the conseil who had been involved in this and other rackets for several years, another Syndic was appointed, and a court order obtained, after a very long delay, to sell the flat.

Unfortunately only five years back payments could legally be recovered, so with the court and other charges it was an expensive exercise.

After that and similar experiences in Spain, where uninformed decisions by the committeee caused huge expenses to the owners, we have stayed away from any co-ownership property.

[Evianers]

And then there is this..................

https://www.leboncoin.fr/vi/1530882134.htm/#xtor=ES-3999-[MYSRCH]

at this rate we shall probably be staying where we are!!!

[idun]

Looks absolutely wonderful.

I don't blame you for looking at such places, you are obviously happy there and it looks splendid.

A new build sounds like a great idea, as has been said, the insulation will be excellent.  But I was wondering if you looked elsewhere??? I only ask as I used to find Lac Leman and Geneve, which I used to visit quite regularly, absolutely freezing in winter and damp, felt far colder that where I lived, and maybe the actual temperature was not even so low the dampness making the difference.