AnOther Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 A subject which regularly crops up is that of when one is regarded as being tax resident in France.I came across THIS article which seems to encapsulate the situation quite neatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginia.c Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Thanks. I found this very helpful. I had always believed it to be the "more than six months in France then you are resident there" line. Not that I am able to spend more than a couple of weeks in France at the moment however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Thanks, Erns, just wish I had a copy of that to put in front of all the people who'd argued about their tax status with me in the past.Nowadays, I can't be bothered to get involved. If they want to break the law of their new country of residence, it's nowt to do with me. But, I have a sneaking hope that the b u g g e r s will get caught out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbles Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 But, what happens to these poor people if they bite the bullet and fill in a first tax form in france eventually, after say 6 years living there?do they get stung for 6 years' tax and then have to claim back the same from the Inland Revenue in England?they could have quite a wait for the refund!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 So some people according to the article have joined the French Health System when NOT officially resident in France ....What a cheek ! I would never dream of attempting to do such a thing and I spend quite a bit of the year in France ...I am amazed that people would try to do it ...If you are UK resident and cant afford to pay for annual health insurance cover while at your France property then its time to get rid ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr orloff Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 [quote user="bubbles"]But, what happens to these poor people if they bite the bullet and fill in a first tax form in france eventually, after say 6 years living there? do they get stung for 6 years' tax and then have to claim back the same from the Inland Revenue in England? they could have quite a wait for the refund!![/quote]Hard cheese. How can they expect to live here for six years without fulfilling their obligations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenniswitch Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Excellent, clearly written article. Thanks, Ernie, for posting the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 [quote user="Frederick"]So some people according to the article have joined the French Health System when NOT officially resident in France ....What a cheek ! I would never dream of attempting to do such a thing and I spend quite a bit of the year in France ...I am amazed that people would try to do it ...If you are UK resident and cant afford to pay for annual health insurance cover while at your France property then its time to get rid ![/quote]Can't afford or "can't pay, won't pay, catch me if you can"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsnips Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 [quote user="bubbles"]But, what happens to these poor people if they bite the bullet and fill in a first tax form in france eventually, after say 6 years living there?do they get stung for 6 years' tax and then have to claim back the same from the Inland Revenue in England?they could have quite a wait for the refund!![/quote]Hi, If people know they can get a refund from the UK greater than the tax due in France (as is usually the case) they can make a late declaration. If ,say, they have been here 6 years the french will only claim back tax for the last 3 yrs, but the UK will refund for up to 7yrs--I know , I eventually persuaded one of the "invisibles" to do this, and he ended up £8000 better off. If they have nothing to gain from UK refunds , they can just make a declaration at the next due time, and in my experience they will not be questioned: if they are they can always say that they were only here part-time before. In any case, if they didn't pay tax in the UK--therefore no refund to claim--they are very unlikely to be liable here. If a declaration is volunteered there are no penalties in France for late payment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancer Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 [quote user="Frederick"]So some people according to the article have joined the French Health System when NOT officially resident in France ....What a cheek ! I would never dream of attempting to do such a thing and I spend quite a bit of the year in France ...I am amazed that people would try to do it ...If you are UK resident and cant afford to pay for annual health insurance cover while at your France property then its time to get rid ![/quote]Or perhaps the article is saying that there are people who have unwittingly registered as resident in France, perhaps after being badgered and convinced by well meaning people to "do the right thing" (i.e. I am legit so should you be) when in fact their centre of economic interest remained the UK despite spending most of their time in France. These people through paying their taxes and cotisations in France (albeit unecessarily and ill advisedly) would naturally be covered by the French health system, not a question of cheek or attempting to get one over, at least that is how I read the article.Ernie - thanks for the information, it is very relevant to my situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbles Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 Thank you, Parsnips. That is a helpful post.And thank you too, Ernie, for the original link which was very clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Avery Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 There are a number of cases of people having got E 106s before leaving the UK and getting into the French healthcare system but then deciding that France is not for them full time and so go back or buy as a holiday home. There are also those who wing it on E 111 or EHICs and only join the French health care system when they have an accident and get hospitalised and get found out to have been here on a 2 year holiday. Parsnips post may be true for a lot of tax defaulters the French tax offices have up to now an amazing tolerance for the "I didn't know I had to pay tax here" stories, but I really would not bet now that things are being tightened up by the links between the various health and financial systems and the big anti -fraud moves under way, on not being in serious trouble if the "misunderstanding of knowing I had to declare my tax here" goes back over a long period of time and involves a lot of money, the French quite gladly jail their own tax defrauders, so locking up a few "cheating anglais" should not come too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Oh, Ron, look what you've done!You've gone and spoilt a lot of people's breakfast![:D][6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonrouge Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I have let us say a relationship with the law and domicile residency and related matters have always 'taxed' English Law. Indeed someone was once involved in a divorce attendrf Epsom Ascot or Wimbledon cannot remember and claimed I think to be living in France. He had a writ slapped on him and the law said that his centre of economic interests was the UK and the wife had her divorce. This article is one of the if not the best that has been written on the subject and I am so grateful that it has been posted on the forum.Still I wander off the subject. I am not holier than thou or anyone else but I have posted this elsewhere and just repeat it here.If you go into a shop give a 10 euro note and get change for a 20 euro note and you know you have done so and then keep the change on the basis it was the shop keepers fault they can afford it then you are on the road to ruin. Once you mind is so orchestrated then you have difficulties.Thus here in France you are playing fast and loose with the system and you know what you are doing then you are commiting an offence. Ok you can live with yourself and its a personal choice but a knock on the door at a very early hour in the morning is not pleasant. You may suffer but also your wife husband children will also suffer. Is it worth all of this?Perhaps I am olf-fashioned and was brought up within a family that did not have financial wealth but believed in values and family values. But that was a long time ago and I would not dream of imposing my thoughts or values on anyone else. We all have decisions to make in this. Some play it straight others not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 Does this mean that we have now kissed and made up after our little spat over 'Toni from Spain' [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I'm sorry, Erns, no one will kiss you now you look so dreadful with that one hair sticking out of your head and that great big conk!What does Mrs Bluecat think of you these days?[:P] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 It's only what some of us have, mostly unsuccessfully, been trying to explain to people on forums like this for several years now. There's always some clever wotsit who will find a reason why such perfectly clear guidelines apply to everybody else but not to them.The excuse that the article doesn't touch upon is 'we're all European and that overrides everything else'.And it very conveniently skirts around the social security issues, which can make a very big difference to those who have to work. Of course UK practice is to collect NI and tax together, whereas France does it differently, which means many British overlook French social security questions until they find they have to register and pay. Also there is the 'domicile' question: in France 'residence' and 'domicile' are largely interchangeable, while in UK they are quite distinct concepts - this can have a big bearing on inheritance tax and capital gains isues. So where you are resident (or indeed domiciled) for income tax/impôts sur revenus is not necessarily the same place that you are resident for many other purposes. That's where the real complications can arise, which are not always solved through the double taxation agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 But, there is apparently a problem area; Where a family is present full time in France but the breadwinner is here little and maintains a home in UK (or elsewhere) as well as having the job and being taxed there, the earner's tax status is not immediately clear. In other words, residence and centre of economic interest could seem to be in contradiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnOther Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote user="sweet 17"]I'm sorry, Erns, no one will kiss you now you look so dreadful withthat one hair sticking out of your head and that great big conk![/quote]You didn't think that was really me before did you [:-))]This is me with my brother (I'm the handsome one BTW)[IMG]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/biskitboyo/ugly-men.jpg[/IMG][quote user="sweet 17"]What does Mrs Bluecat think of you these days?[:P][/quote]The same as always sweets, the sun shines out of it, ask her yourself [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote user="woolybanana"] But, there is apparently a problem area; Where a family is present full time in France but the breadwinner is here little and maintains a home in UK (or elsewhere) as well as having the job and being taxed there, the earner's tax status is not immediately clear. In other words, residence and centre of economic interest could seem to be in contradiction.[/quote]Not at all, WB. Residence is not an 'either/or' question, in the case you quote the breadwinner is tax resident in both UK and France. Under the terms of the double taxation agreement he pays tax and NI in UK, and declares this in France as income on which tax has already been paid.You can complicate matters if his wife works in France... That highlights another difference between UK and French tax that is not covered in the original article, as in UK couples are taxed as individuals and in France they are taxed jointly.Exercise 2 - explain, under the above circumstances, how health and social security matters are resolved as well as taxation [:D] (I know the answer, and it is simple). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Ernie, the plastic surgery has done wonders, as has the change of hairdresser.[6] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mint Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote user="ErnieY"][quote user="sweet 17"]I'm sorry, Erns, no one will kiss you now you look so dreadful with that one hair sticking out of your head and that great big conk![/quote]You didn't think that was really me before did you [:-))]This is me with my brother (I'm the handsome one BTW)[IMG]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p123/biskitboyo/ugly-men.jpg[/IMG][quote user="sweet 17"]What does Mrs Bluecat think of you these days?[:P][/quote]The same as always sweets, the sun shines out of it, ask her yourself [:D][/quote]Thank you, Erns, you've convinced me as no one else has done that there is a lot of truth in Darwin's Theory of Evolution.Descended from the apes? But it's perfectly apparent to me that some of us have descended from them in more recent times than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I thought that picture was Woollybanana and one of his several brothers [:D] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolybanana Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 [quote user="Will"]I thought that picture was Woollybanana and one of his several brothers [:D][/quote]Nah, those are the Rootvegetable family, probably Parsnips from Penzance or Perigord. But the shirts seem to suggest Pensicola Lights to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5-element Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 post edited for being a silly comment, irrelevant to the discussion.[:$] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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